Is school for children way too easy these days?

[wade3504]

Now that I have children I see alot more of what goes on in schools and it is quite sad. Anymore it seems they can get away with anything academically or otherwise. My son is in 3rd grade and when he takes a test if he doesn't get a good grade the first time then they let him take it over again, sometimes twice. Well, they are multiple choice tests so you're eventually going to get the right answer when there's only one answer left. He forgets his homework and they let him redo it in class. What exactly is this doing for them? No need to study as it can be taken over and over again. If I say I forgot my homework then I can just do it in class (no need to do it at home). We finally spoke with his teacher as he was trying to tell us at home that he didn't understand the homework. She tells us that he gets it during his independent work time at school(we've come to find out that he pretty much does know it but pretends he doesn't as he wants us to give him the answers-his mother who passed away did that for him in the past). In the same breath though, his teacher tells us that she and his other teacher don't think he's going to pass the FCAT which determines whether he goes on to fourth grade or not. Now, we feel he should be held back anyway, but why wait until February to tell us this and only after we contacted her? I don't know if it's because she was originally a 1st grade teacher and she's now a 3rd grade teaher but I just don't get it. Letting them retake the tests over and over again will make her look good now but only until the FCAT scores come out. They are also not allowed to take their textbooks home. I guess because too many kids don't return them at the end of the year.

My daughter is in 5th grade. She had a teacher that told her that reading isn't important and again if she forgot her homework it was OK because she knew she had done it. This teacher also never checked their homework so if we hadn't done it our daughter could have written anything down and got credit for it. One assignment that she had forgotten never got turned in as I found it weeks after it was due and she got credit for it anyway.

I don't remember school being like this. I remember we had to learn and know it the first time. If we didn't bring in our homework we didn't get credit forgotten or not. Have schools majorly slacked off and just don't care anymore or is it just this school?

 

[CharlesFamily]

Well, you have addressed several issues here, so I'll try to address them in my reply.

First, re-taking tests, there is a school of thought now that many schools are following that a test is an assessment and an assessment is to see what the student has or has not learned. Typically, students are only allowed to re-take a test once. But the hope is that the student may get a bad grade the first time, and then actually put some effort forth and study for the test and learn the material so they can get a better score the second time. It's not so much about the grade, as it is about encouraging the student to actually learn the material.

Homework is the same thing - homework is for practice. Instead of penalizing the student automatically for not getting it done, make them do it later or do it over if they don't have it. In the middle school my husband teaches at and the middle school my daughter attends, homework is no longer able to be counted towards their grade - only classwork, quizzes and tests. The thinking behind that is because you are grading a student on something that you cannot guarantee is their work. Either parents doing the majority of the homework or students cheating off one another. Students can earn a participation grade, and can still receive detentions for not turning in their homework, so there is incentive to do it.

In your son's case, though, it sounds like the teacher might need to start doing something that makes it a little more inconvenient for him NOT to do his work, so that he will try and do it at night when it is supposed to be completed.

My daughter is in third grade, also. They write down in agendas each day what their homework is so I know if she has homework she needs to do and the teacher checks it each day to be sure the student is writing it down. Do they do this at your son's school?

As for why they are just now letting you know that your son may not pass third grade - I have no idea! Do they hold conferences? We hold them in November so we can touch base with parents and let them know of any concerns we have. Then again in February where we definitely approach the idea of holding a child back if necessary. But you are right, you shouldn't have had to contact them to learn this. They should at least have been calling you to request a conference.

It sounds to me like the teachers you have described are not doing what they need to do. But in answer to your question - no, not all schools are like this. Schools and teachers are certainly facing more challenges today than ever, but most of them strive to push students to excell and only want the best for them.

Barbara

 

[Riverrose28]

Oh my Gosh! the school system must be really bad here in Maryland, my Grand son was with me last weekend and he had so much home work for week end I couldn't pick up and carry his back pack. We spent over an hour on spelling, then two more hours on reading. If they don't turn in their work they get a zero grade. He is in the fourth grade. What does bother me is that he is still printing, no hand writing. His printing is awful! He has to write dailey in a journal and it is hard to read what he has written. They need to work on penmanship, like in the old days.

 

[barnbum]

I can answer to this, being a 5th grade teacher.

My first response is "Wow." That is NOT how it is in my classroom, in my school. Homework is done, or in most cases, students must finish it during recess. There's the "What's fair isn't always equal" issue at work though. If a child forgets once every two months, he/she is usually mortified and can turn it in the next day, but for those who miss a few a week--no leniency is shown. There is a page or two of math almost every day, and I try to give time in class to at least get it started. They are allowed to put a * next to anything they didn't understand and I'll help them in the morning. Math homework does not count towards the grade, but I correct every one so I can see who may need reteaching. All writing is done in school because parents help too much.

Reading not important, eh?

:arg!

My students are coming off a week vacation and their monthly book report is due tomorrow. There is one due the last day of every month starting in Sept (they hear about it in the August welcome letter), and the title must be approved by me first. Some students, who have earned the privilege, participate in Lit Circles, and they know ahead of time they will meet either during recess/lunch or Study Hall. The rule there is, if it's not done, it's a 0 and nothing can be done about it. It's useless to the group if it's not done. Of course if a child is sick, he/she can turn it in when back to school.

Around every time report cards go home, my students are given a Play Day for all their hard work. For one day they call the shots on the schedule. Every year the class votes for either free read or free write time. This always make me celebrate inside.

No tests are ever retaken. Parents and students will ask now and then and the answer is no. I do everything to prepare students for every test so there are no surprises. Study guides are given for SS and Sci tests; at least two parallel practice math tests are given before each unit test. We review each question in class and I offer to work with anyone 1:1 on any fuzzy areas. If they don't do well, they didn't do their job and their grade will reflect that. I grade their tests the same day they were given 95% of the time (quick feedback is vital to their learning)--and the class average is shared with them--along with how many As, Bs, etc.

We have fun in my class and there are a lot of belly laughs, but if a student steps on the line there are quick reminders that life will get uncomfortable if the foot goes over. My class is a favorite of aides and substitutes because they behave, are respective, helpful, and they do their work. I can't tell you how many times a sub has said "They were silent as they worked on their Leveled Readers" or while they were in writing workshop.. I am always surprised it isn't the norm. But--that is not an issue you brought up.

Teachers are held accountable for their students' test scores, so I don't know what's up down there.

 

[ohmt]

Wowza....the school systems where I grew up (minnesota) were NOT like that at all and I just graduated not that long ago. I nanny a little boy and he always has an hour or so of homework every night and he's in third grade. He has to read 30 min every night and go through his flashcards to learn his times tables. I also have him practice his handwriting as it's not the best. That's just what I have him do...not including his homework.from school. I have to sign his agenda book every night to show he did his homework. If not he has to stay inside for recess and do it.

 

[Ashley]

Wowza....the school systems where I grew up (minnesota) were NOT like that at all and I just graduated not that long ago. I nanny a little boy and he always has an hour or so of homework every night and he's in third grade. He has to read 30 min every night and go through his flashcards to learn his times tables. I also have him practice his handwriting as it's not the best. That's just what I have him do...not including his homework.from school. I have to sign his agenda book every night to show he did his homework. If not he has to stay inside for recess and do it.

MN schools ARE like that. In 7th grade if the homework isnt done they can turn it in anytime, doesnt matter if its a day late or a month late and get full credit for it. Thats not fair to those that do do their work.

 

[wade3504]

Karla, I must say I have always thought you were an acception to most teacchers. I have always thought you've gone above and beyond what most would do. I could only hope that my kids had a teacher like you.

As far as the retaking of the tests, there has been one time that my son had a few days in between to take it the second time. All the others have been the same day. We never get the tests or graded assignments back until months later so I feel at that point that it's too late. I go over it with him but I'd rather go over it with him as he is currently working on the material and hasn't moved on to something else. I have a feeling that since the test grades are a reflection of the teacher this is why she lets them take them over again until a good grade is achieved. Actually, they don't even get grades here anymore. There is no A, B, C, D. They do proficient, approaching proficien etc.

He has an agenda but the teacher rarely checks it so the majority of the time it is blank. He gets a packet each Monday from his math and science teacher but the rest of his homework is a guessing game at times. He also must do a half hour of reading every day that isn't checked either so if we didn't make sure he did it I know they wouldn't know. We purposely left one of his social studies papers all wrong before to see what would happen. He guessed on the majority of the vocab words. Normally I would make him go look up the words and redo it. I did make him look up the words and he redid it separately but I wanted to see if his teacher would catch it. Nope! He got big smiley faces all over his homework papers. So I know that if we don't check it it's not getting checked which in turn really makes homework useless if the parents aren't involved (we are).

As far as penmanship goes they don't really care about that anymore either. Our son has to rewrite his work quite often because we make him. The teachers don't care. Spelling doesn't really count anymore either nor does punctuation and capitalization. Our kids get mad at us because we care. I don't think they have to write in cursive anymore. My daughter is in 5th grade and she is still printing.

I do know one thing. If I didn't have to work I would homeschool in a heartbeat. As it is I work exta with them at home on the stuff I know their school is lacking in. We will be in a better area as far as schools go next year so hopefully that will help. Our school had been given a grade of "A" for 2007 and 2008 but this past year they have a "c". They blame the migrant children who are now being bussed there but I'm not so sure on that and migrant children or not they need to learn as well so something is going on somewhere that needs improvement. Next year we will be living where the schools are high up on the list of elementary schools in the state of Florida. Hopefully that will help.

I also want to ad that I don't expect miracles. I know my son has alot to do with this but making things easier for him so he can get a good gade and not making him respsonsible for anything isn't helping either. If he's not doing well on the tests then something needs to be done and it should have been sooner rather than later. They still don't plan on doing anythig until after he takes the FCATS. they aren't until April then they have to be sent off to be graded. School ends mid June. School will be over before they decide to do anything. We are trying to get him to put more effort into what he does. I guess we'd like it if the school would help out a little with that and not make slacking off acceptable. I mean why worry about studying when you can retake the test until you get it right? He's going to have a shock later on when he gets a teacher who isn't so easy and lenient.

 

[ohmt]

Wowza....the school systems where I grew up (minnesota) were NOT like that at all and I just graduated not that long ago. I nanny a little boy and he always has an hour or so of homework every night and he's in third grade. He has to read 30 min every night and go through his flashcards to learn his times tables. I also have him practice his handwriting as it's not the best. That's just what I have him do...not including his homework.from school. I have to sign his agenda book every night to show he did his homework. If not he has to stay inside for recess and do it.

 

[bcody]

Wow, I guess all the responses show how different schools are, kind of sad that there is so much variation. My son is in 4th grade. He has 30 math problems every night just about. They do get some time in school to start it. He has spelling words he needs to study every week and a vocabulary list he has a test on once a month. He also has to do a book report every month, and does literacy groups in class. They do comprehension tests on the computer. He has a TAKS test on Tuesday, so they will work on that tomorrow and he will probably have no homework. April is the other two TAKS test.

My daughter is in second grade. She has a schedule of homework she everynight. Her reading level is tested four times a year. I know that kids that do not read well are tutored(I am a tutor for some of them) Their school takes reading seriously. In third grade my son learned to write.

For every grade they have been in so far, any work not done is done during recess. Every six weeks there are reward for kids who are never late, pass in their work ect.ect. Homework is graded, but the grade is if the homework is passed in, not if it is correct. For every day the homework is late the grade goes down 10 points. They go over the homework in class and get to ask questions. If a parent corrects the work at home and signs it then they get that time to work on that nights homework.

 

[Flying minis]

This is part of why we started homeschooling this year (that and bullying that the school didn't seem to care about doing anything about.) My son is a freshman this year, up to now he could retake tests anytime he got a D or lower, the highest grade possible on the retake was a C. Homework same thing, if it was late it would get a C for a top grade, but otherwise no consequences. Rob scores high in his standardized testing - but I'm not sure how, because when we started homeschooling this year, I couldn't believe some of the gaps. His reading comprehension was horrible, and we're still fighting the attitude that "I'll get it done eventually, it doesn't matter if it's on time." It DOES matter if it's on time to this "teacher"!

Teachers I talked to blamed it on No Child Left Behind (which around here is called "No Child Gets Ahead"). If they can retake tests until they pass, it makes the school's overall grades look better. Rather than trying to get the middle and lower end kids to work up to a higher level, they let them retake tests, etc., until their grades come up. Then the range of scores is tighter, making it look like the school is performing higher.

 

[wade3504]

The sad part is what are they going to be like later, at least for the kids whose parents really don't get involved? There is no responsibility, no consequences. We've already been through the bullying problem several times already with my daughter. We got the police involved as after the first incident the school decided they wanted nothing to do with it. After mentioning lawyers and restraining orders they finally decided that maybe they should pay attention.

I have to agree with the "No child gets ahead". Right now, my husband and I are basically the teachers and the school is childcare.

 

[txminipinto]

I haven't read all of the replies, but for my son (2nd grade), I find our school district quite tough. Lots of homework, as well as expectations to do it and do it well. We are a nationally recognized district which is quite impressive being literally a 1 school school district.

My son pulls the "Moooom I neeeeed heeeeeeeellllllpppppp" trick at home as well with his homework. I don't help him until he at least attempts the answer and then I go back and talk him through it. I never give him the answer. I just tell him that I've already graduated 2nd grade and I don't need to do the work, he does. Doesn't go over very well, but wouldn't you know it....he knows it just doesn't want to do it!

 

[wcr]

Karla-I think you are a gem and have my full respect. Teaching is a hard job with some of the lowest wages on the job market. I think we have become a way to lenient society where bullying, disruption in class and disrespect has become the norm. I know I am an old fogy but if I got bad grades, disrespected my teachers, caused problems in class, the school would notify my parents and I got in big trouble. Gee, I probably would have even got a whippin' and I wouldn't have dared call Child Protective Services cuz I would have ended up on permanent restriction. I think I have grown up to be a reasonably responsible, well educated adult who has a good work ethic and an asset to society.

Our education system scares me and I am glad I don't have kids in school. When finances get tough in this country the first thing that gets cut is the schools. They are pricing college out of most people's budget and with the job market after graduation it is no wonder people don't want to get thousands in debt and end up working at McDonalds with an advanced degree. We are raising a generation that is poorly educated, leaving trillions in debt that these same people are going to have to deal with and I have very grave concerns for the future of this country. I am not political nor have any inclination towards being political but it scares me what is happening in our society.

Our teachers are getting less pay, less respect, less support and I wouldn't want their job. I think parents need to get more proactive in the education of their children than they ever have been to ensure they get the education you as parents expect.

I will now get off my soapbox

 

[Jill]

I really don't know... but I think that the public school teacher UNIONS are a big part of the problems that exist

 

[Miniv]

Wade, It sounds as if your teachers AND the administrators are plain old LAZY public school farts. They aren't caring about the young people who need to learn for college and adulthood. I'd be yanking my kids out of that school and make it public with the reasons why. If there isn't another school close by with a better ranking from parents, check charter schools too. Since you're already doing a lot of the teaching, perhaps you should also look into homeschooling! There are several homeschooling options that use the internet, one even furnishes the student with a computer!

My husband is a former public school teacher, and when we finally began being parents (initially foster, and now we have our own) we both agreed that the kids would NEVER ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL, especially the ones available in our area.....Four of our fosters attended an alternative school while they were with us, and our daughter has been in private school since pre-school. She's in 8th grade now and according to the state testing she is one grade ahead in math/science, two grades ahead in language arts/history. The only time she needs help with homework is with algebra....and her dad kicks in. If she doesn't do or finish her homework three times in one school quarter, she gets a detention. (Plus we ground her, ie. Consequences.) There are parent/teacher conferences TWICE a year. Is she brilliant? No...she's normal bright, but she's receiving a good basic education.......The type that every child should have, IMO. Sadly, we parents have to fight for it these days.

In my opinion, it's time to get pro-active while your kids are still in elementary school.

______________________________________________________________________________

KARLA, Bravo for what you do and how you are doing it. Wish there were more teachers like you all across North America.

 

[wade3504]

I am going to have to see what I can do about home schooling. The problem is that I have to work so if they don't go to school I will have to see what I can do wit hthem while I am at work. I am only a VPK teacher so it isn't like I can afford a nanny and they are not old enough to stay home alone. I work at a private school so I will have to see if I can possibly bring them with me. My oldest goes to middle school next year. I'm not sure once we move if it will be the same middle school or a different one. My son, if he passes 3rd grade would be in a better school if we move but that's not saying much. I'd like to move back to the town I came from. The schools there are in the top 40 out of all the schools in Florida. Out of about 1500 elementary schools the one my children are in right now ranks in the mid 1300's.

 

[weebiscuit]

As former teachers, my husband and I are sort of appalled by the *dumbing down* of kids today. But it's a very complex issue. The teachers' unions, (which we are NOT fans of), protect very poor teachers as long as they've got seniority. Then there are the state and federal mandates which come down. Like in Wisconsin (where I'm sure you're all aware of the turmoil going on), back in the 80's or 90's, the State mandated that all kids had to be taught the history of unions, and especially the unions in Wisconsin. There are lots of other mandates, but all these take time away from the basics that kids just aren't spending enough time on any more.

In the 1980s education really began to suffer when the ACLU stepped in and starting suing teachers if they yelled at their kid or kept them in at noon because they hadn't done their homework, and these days it's so bad that schools are very loath to ever discipline a kid for fear of a lawsuit.

(I would like to add that when I was teaching I was honored at a luncheon at the then-Governor's Mansion for excellence in teaching). So, while I loved teaching, the public school system was so out of whack that I left it and went to a private, Catholic school to teach for my last ten years and I just loved it! We were paid WAY less, but our students consistently placed far above the public school kids in the district with all their test scores.

And contrary to what someone else on this thread said about teachers not being paid well.... baloney! In our district (and we ony have nineteen thousand people in the entire COUNTY), they average about $55,000 PLUS get a benefit package that's paid out of taxpayer money, which included free retirement (totally funded by taxpayers), and they only had to pay around 3% towards their health care, and they had the cadillac of all health care plans. The benefits they got on top of their base salaries brought their incomes up to around $80,000. Not bad for a very rural, farming community.

I hate to tell you this, as I see you are in Florida, but my brother is a principal in Florida, with several schools under his direction. He used to be a principal in Wisconsin, but moved to Florida a few years after his wife died, just to get away from the sad memories. He said that compared to Wisconsin, the Florida schools were really bad. And I have a son who moved to Georgia a few years ago with his four kids, and the schools were so bad there that they put them into a private school.

And I have heard many times that the best education will be found in the Midwest states. I don't know why that is, and I hope I don't rile anyone by saying that, but it's really true. Also, when my son moved to Georgia, he applied for a management position with a big company, and while there were many people already working there who should have been considered for the job, he got hired because the CEO told him that "The midwest education and work ethic is something I have always been impressed with, and I will hire someone from the midwest before I'll hire someone from Georgia."

 

[wcr]

I am in Oregon and the pay rate here for teachers is 23-24000. Very poor when you consider the average wage scale for other professions.

 

[weebiscuit]

I am in Oregon and the pay rate here for teachers is 23-24000. Very poor when you consider the average wage scale for other professions.

I don't know where you got that information about Oregon teacher's salaries, but it is WAY off! Oregon teachers have a starting BASE salary of $33,699 and average salary of $50,044. Add to that "base" salary all the retirement money they receive for their retirement from taxpayers, and their health insurance paid for by taxpayers, and a starting teaching in Oregon is making $60,000.

Also, there is a "Comfort Scale" assigned to states, with Number 1 being the "most comfortable," and Oregon comes in at number 14, out of 50 states! That's pretty darn good! And of all the states, Oregon ranks 18 in paying the highest salary to beginning, first year teachers!

So, Oregon teachers "start" out at $33,699 and get good raises every year, and the average teacher in Oregon is paid $50,044 per year! And that does NOT include all the health care and retirement benefits they are receiving through taxpayers. So if you made $50,000 and didn't have to pay anything towards your retirement and only maybe $200 a month towards health insurance that covered 100% of all your needs with no co-pay or deductable, wouldn't you think you were making a pretty good wage?

 

[Ashley]

Even if they get paid low it shouldnt matter. When people pick careers typically its picked because its enjoyed and its not about the money. Also most know the pay range of a job before they decided to get in the field. I dont by pay as a reason to suck.