I've hesitated to ask

[Voodoo]

I sold a stallion to a friend 4 years ago. He was a mature stallion, but never used for breeding. I didn't understand as much about miniatures as I do now and when I sold him I didn't see the signs that he was a very minimal dwarf :no: . He is 29" tall if he's on his toes, cute little bay thing. He can do all sorts of tricks, pull a cart, jump, kid friendly etc....... Joi just had to have him so I sold him to her; after I started coming here I realized that he was a minimal dwarf and should not be bred. I told her what I thought and begged her not to breed him, but she already had a mare and wanted a foal. I told her she could breed to either of my stallions free of charge, but she just had to have one out of him. The first year the mare had a red bag on a palomino filly :no: It was a dwarf, but you could never convince Joi of it, she was totally convinced this foal was fine (and she's been breeding QH's for 15 years

: ). This year she had a bay colt that I have never seen, but from what she says is definately a dwarf. Joi said that when he was born he looked like a giraffe, he walked on his ankles as his tendons were too weak to support him. I started asking questions and yes he has a short neck, big bulge on his forhead, not a really bad bite, but it is off. I know in my heart this stallion is throwing this, but I just can't convince her to geld him. I've told her over and over, showed her pictures, she just won't belive me

:. Is there anything else I can do? She did take my advise and take him to the vet, they got him all fixed up with some of the special shoes (can't think of what they're called right now

: ). He's walking better now and she does take very good care of him, but is there anything else I can do to get her to quit breeding this stallion?

Here is a bad picture of him, but it's all I have right now. I'll see if I can dig a couple more out of an old album. Sorry I can't get any pictures of the foal, Joi doesn't have a computer.

Edited to add a few more pictures of him. These are all I have so hopefully they're ok

 

[kaykay]

honestly he doesnt look like a minimal dwarf to me? just looks like a small cute mini. Does he have an off bite? Now having said that hes not what i would breed and if he was mine he would be a much loved gelding

 

[Voodoo]

Well Kay he has a slighty off bite. If the forelock is moved aside he has a rather prominent bump on his forhead. I feel his neck is too short and his legs are a little stubby. As I said it is very minimal, but I still think he's the one throwing it.

 

[bitsy]

I agree with Kay, I was surprised when the pictures came up, he must be very MINIMAL. However, that said he does not appear to stallion material. If she is only breeding to produce a pet for herself, then no harm done. You have done what you can, you have told her of your concerns and been kind enough to offer her free breedings to your stallions. Hopefully, she won't make a habit of this and won't try and sell offspring, sadly it's out of your hands at this point.

 

[shane]

gosh kera, i sympathize with you, it must be a very awkward situation for you to be in, i hope maybe she could go onto Little bits website and take a good look, i feel bad for you not knowing what to do, he is lovely!! and doesn't look like a dwarf at all but as you said you've seen him in detail, good luck i hope you can get some answers on here

:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I to see what you do and could consider him a minimal dwarf. His legs are much shorter (it appears anyway) and he seems to be very long.

That said of course pics dont tell the whole picture.

It is a tough situation to be in as you can see even "mini" people dont agree so it is very hard to get her on the same page as you.

 

[virginia]

He's a cutie. He doesn't look like a Dwarf to me, but can't of course see his bite. He is not stallion material, thick neck, short legs, low tail set but like someone said, if she's just breeding for a pet for herself, no harm done.

Ginny StP

 

[Minimor]

Lisa's post above covers my exact thoughts. I too see where you may be right, that he is a minimal dwarf. It's a fine line, though, between minimal dwarf & just plain poor conformation traits. However, if you do a search back on this forum you will find a post by Arion Mgmt, where John states that dwarfism in Minis requires a gene from each parent. It isn't only the sire or the dam. The stallion doesn't have to be a dwarf to carry the dwarf gene. A horse can be a lovely individual, and still carry the gene, and so produce a dwarf when crossed with another carrier.

I don't really have any suggestions for how to convince your friend not to use her stallion for breeding. You first have to convince her that the resulting foals so far have been dwarves. Perhaps provide her with reading material on dwarfism and the appearance of horses that are dwarves; give her pictures of dwarves, from minimal to severe. If she is willing to look and read, perhaps she will think it over and realize you may be right. If she refuses to even consider the possibility that her foal is a dwarf, and absolutely won't look at the literature/photos & such, then there isn't much you can do.

 

[Dandy]

Well I don't see dwarf either. He's just a short, stocky type. Plus, he's not clipped and that would really show more. As far as the bite goes, I don't think that it being a little off constitutes a dwarf either. Just my opinion, though.

 

[SandyWI]

I think it's extremely difficult to assess conformation on the basis of pictures alone, especially when the pictures were taken from a standing position, as pictures 1 and 3 obviously were. That position alone always makes a horse appear stockier and shorter.

The middle picture looks a bit more as if it were taken straight on, but it's not a clear picture.

Conformationally, I would not breed this stallion, but I am breeding show horses, not pets.

A bad bite does not make a dwarf. However, a bad bite coupled with a domed forehead and low tail set and short, stocky legs are all things that dwarves may have in common. Without seeing him clipped and pictures taken down at his level, and also from the front and rear, I would not say this horse is or isn't a drawf.

 

[lilhorseladie]

Your little guy is so cute. You are in the same situation I recently put myself in. I had one boy for sale who was very slightly cow hocked, but I didn't want him bred. I sold him to a man with a verbal agreement about gelding. The man had as a surprise gotten the horse for his wife! It was really a great sale and the best home, but on a follow up call, the wife says that she wants to keep him a stallion and make a baby. I too, said, stallions don't always lead the happiest lives, geld him and keep him as a pet, if you get a mare, you can use my stallion free of charge. Will they listen? At this point I already sold him. I did however learn an important lesson. If you don't want them bred, don't sell them intact. I don't think there is anything either on of us can do about our situation. We have to let our babies go and continue to support our sales. I know it doesn't help much, but I am sure many people have been in similar situations.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The key here is that the horse has had 2 foals both dwarfs is how I read it?

 

[Voodoo]

Yes Lisa you read it exactly right. This cross, the only two foals by this stallion were both dwarves. The mare had several babies before Joi bought her and they were all gorgeous and fine. I understand that both horses have to carry the gene, but where her other foals were fine, I hoped that by gelding this stallion and using one of mine she would get a better quality, non-dwarf foal. The signs on this horse are minimal, but Lisa hit it dead on when she said he was long in the body and short in the legs. Plus the bite, the forhead, the neck, low tailset, all put together and coupled with the fact that both foals have been dwarves I was just really worried about her continuing on breeding this pair. She is only breeding the foals for her enjoyment, but I just don't think it's fair to knowingly breed a pair that keeps throwing dwarves. Thanks for all the insight everyone.

Lilhorseladie I know your situation and like I said in my first post. Had I known then what I know now he would not have been left intact. I didn't understand all about dwarves and just thought well he's not show quality, but she only wants pets and is in love with THIS stallion no big deal. Now I realize the gravity of what I did, but as you said I guess I need to move on. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Little Bit]

We could debate whether we think this stallion is a dwarf, minimal dwarf or not, until we are blue in the face, fact is he IS a "known dwarf producer", in my opinion the horse should NEVER be bred again, as he is carrying the dwarf gene and chances are IF he ever does produce a "normal" looking foal, it will also be a carrier!...(same goes for the mares he was bred to and produced the dwarf foals)

I'm sorry, but the only way we have right now, of reducing the amount of dwarves being produced, is to pull the known dwarf producing horses(mares & stallions) out of the breeding program!

: JMO

It's also my opinion that this stallion is NOT of breeding quality. Yes, it is hard to judge a horse from pictures, especially when they are taken at these angles, but he looks to be of pet quality at the very best, and Heaven knows there are too many pet quality horses being bred now! Some folks are having a hard time selling them for $250.00! Many are ending up in auctions or even worse!

OK stepping down from my soapbox.

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