Just got The Journal in the mail

[Minimor]

No, I didn't forget about that post of Kay's but I took her comment as an "in passing" comment re: misconceptions. You picked up on the temperament half of that sentence & went from there. Everyone else posted in response to your later post.

But, have it your way--it' everyone else & not you who takes this thread into a different direction.

 

[Sandy B]

Yes, there are lots of supplements out there that claim to do everything. We get a ton of magazines as my husband is a sales rep for many different tack lines and anything his companies advertise in we get copies of. Every magazine that is dedicated to performance breeds or disciplines have a ton of these advertisings for everything from joints to hooves, to fertility to attitude to gut health. You name it, there is a supplement for it. Legend and Adequan are advertised like crazy as well as Regumate. Our performance breeds work hard, the majority with riders on their backs and the majority are good sized horses. Unfortunately wear and tear occurs from all disciplines.

Although I don't feel that strongly about it, at work some of my Quarter Horse-owning friends bring in their breed magazines. I am not surprised at the sheer number of advertisers in their magazines for joint supplements and injections. The magazines tailored for Jumpers also has a very high percentage of ads for joint pharmaceuticals, too. Those companies go where the money is... obviously there is a bigger demand in the reining and jumping markets...

Adequan is the "Official Joint Therapy" of the AQHA and the NHRA. They are also big-time sponsors for a lot of the hunter/jumper circuits.

If there was a bigger demand from these Shetland ponies, I'm sure the joint therapy companies would seek them out. Instead, we've got RaDon blankets and Farnam products. That's not a bad thing!

Andrea

 

[Sandy B]

You took her comment one way and I took it another. I am not looking to "have it my way". It seems not one person mentions the things I say positive about the Shetland breed or the positive and thankful comments I said to the people who have been kind to explain their wonderful pony breed. Instead I am judged for my "tone", which is the tone you(referring to all, not just you) put in your own head when you read my comment(s), which in fact may not be my tone at all.

No, I didn't forget about that post of Kay's but I took her comment as an "in passing" comment re: misconceptions. You picked up on the temperament half of that sentence & went from there. Everyone else posted in response to your later post.

But, have it your way--it' everyone else & not you who takes this thread into a different direction.

 

[Sandy B]

Since everyone is judging my "tone" even though they did not hear my voice, i want to explain what my "tone" was so you all can quite judging my "tone".

This was my original post:

I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.



Here is what my tone was: Flabbergasted, shell shocked, disbelief and disappointment.



I KNEW this stuff went on in the Morgans, the Saddlebreds and Walkers and even Hackney Ponies but I had no idea that it went on in "AMHR" (read my previous posts, I now know Congress is not AMHR event). In my brain and experience The Journal magazine was a AMHR magazine that was all about under and over miniature horses. I have very limited mini horse show experience. So I apologize for my un-educated statement about AMHR.



I was so upset that "over minis" or ponies (whatever you prefer to call them) were subject to those long toes and big shoes that I saw in some of the photos in The Journal (current issue). I want to say this very clearly, I do not have any issues with normal hoof length or a bit long in length and regular keg shoes. What I can not believe is the excessive hoof length and big shoes and pads I see on several of the pictures in the current issue of The Journal and the ginger use. It is obvious in the magazine which ones I am referring to. Since the tails were explained to me, I feel much better about that. Thank you to those who explained the tail sets and the positive changes that have been made over the years in that regard.

I also want to say (and I am repeating myself, yet no one acknowledges that I said this) that I do not have any right to comment about Shetland Ponies dispositions or attitudes as I have no experience with this breed EXCEPT for the incredible Shetland X pony I had for many many years as a child. I have never been to a AMHR or Shetland Pony show. My experiences with "big stepping" horses have been Morgans and a few Saddlebreds. I specifically in my posts said that is where I drew my knowledge from.

There will always be those in every breed and discipline that use excessive means to get more, without respect or thought of the horse. This could be training or artificial means. It is not right in ANY BREED or DISCIPLINE. I think most of us know what excessive is and we all deal with it in our own ways.

I vocalized my thoughts and disappointment in learning that even "over minis" (or ponies if you will) were subject to the big shoes and excessive hoof length that I witnessed in Morgans. I knew ginger floated around, even used against AMHA regulations, but it seemed way less than in the Morgans.

And I will say one more time as I have done in previous posts- I AM NOT JUDGING THE SHETLAND BREED AS A WHOLE. I am only talking about the few pictures I saw in The JOURNAL and it did not matter to me what breed it was, all I knew is it was a small horse as it was in a AMHR magazine.

 

[Marty]

Ok my dear friends, Its getting too hot here and I've been silent long enough....Its that 60's hippie in me that is dying to cut loose here, peace and love and all that you know? So its time....

Let's all join hands now and sing TWO chorus of Kum by yah. Its a really good song!

Love and respect to all.

 

[Sandy B]

Marty, you rock! I am singing it, I am singing it loud!!

Ok my dear friends, Its getting too hot here and I've been silent long enough....Its that 60's hippie in me that is dying to cut loose here, peace and love and all that you know? So its time....

Let's all join hands now and sing TWO chorus of Kum by yah. Its a really good song!

Love and respect to all.

 

[tagalong]

Just catching up on this thread after a few days...

I see someone wants to flame reiners, and is it a coincidence that Sandy reins?

Oh for heaven's sake - I was using the reiners as an example because Sandy DOES do reining and it was something she could identify with - so no, not a coincidence. I was using that as example of what you might say on a reining forum that would get folks riled up,. It was not flaming, just an observation/opinion. BTW Sandy AGREED with me about the way many reining horses have become robots and how many riders pick pick pick at them and spur spur spur.

Moderns here get their shoes pulled and slowly trimmed back for the winter.

 

[ahrobertspony]

.....The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.

I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.

View attachment 4302 View attachment 4303

There is a complete article on this amazing mare in the new American Society Pony ezine posted online at www.societypony.com This website and Ezine are great resources for those interested in all the society pony breeds and this wonderful area of the equine industry. You don't have to subscribe or be a member.

 

[SweetOpal]

You are right, improper shoeing and improper confirmation is not in the best interest to any horse that are forced to do something that they are not physically made to do. When we start our 2 yr olds that are bred to rein, they do sliding stops on their own in the round pen and when you first start riding them. You know almost immediately which one is going to stop and made to do it and the ones that don't'. If we do not put sliding plates on them they actually will hurt themselves as they try to tuck that hind end they do more damage then good. I am sure that if you go to a reining horse forum that more people would be happy to help you with your thoughts and explain. This is a mini horse forum.

Your right its a mini forum so why are you talking about the Moderns, and you are right again, I don't know anything about reigning horses so why would I comment on them, the same as you don't know anything about moderns and how we show them, so why would you need to make such ridiculous statements about them!

 

[Leeana]

Actually, you know when it comes to temperment even AT shows to me (and that is only me) I think the moderns actually have the better temperment over some of the classic and foundation ponies...I would even say most of the miniatures too. The moderns tend to know they have a job to do. I think all ponies and horses at home and a bit more pleasant and relaxed in general - but the above is my observation. When the bridle goes on and the handlers/drivers are near - its all business.

Now I am just a simple person, so will give a simple answer...

Going back to the origins of this topic regarding shoe and hoof length for the modern ponies - THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE. You cannot plow a garden without a plow. You cannot drive a pony without a cart. You cannot show a modern without correct hoof/shoe..(well I guess you could, but what would be the fun or point in that). I think sometimes the best answer is THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE. Not just with shetlands, but other breeds, and I in no way find it harmful.

Also, the fact that these ponies have been bred to do what they do and how they do it. I guess if you perhaps grew foot on a quarter horse (not even sure if you could) like the moderns/hackneys do and put those sort of shoes on a quarter horse, then perhaps it would be painful or awkward (I am not vet), but these shetlands and hackenys and build and bred to be able to take that as natural to them.

 

[valshingle]

I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.

Ok, by now you have been told that these ponies are not being crippled, or even going lame. You have been told from those that responded that the ponies shoes are pulled and feet trimmed in the off season. You have been told that the tails are fake. You obviously didn't even know which breed was in the photos. I personally do not think anyone should criticize something without being informed about the situation, eg. a very thin horse could be due to extreme age, rather than neglect.

You don't have to like what you see in The Journal, you don't have to participate in it, but your 'disgust' at what 'AMHR' (which is actually ASPC in this case) allows is a direct criticism of the people who participate in that sport. That is the 'tone' that you give off. Perhaps now that you have more information, you will acknowledge that these ponies are obviously not being hurt as they often have longer careers than many full sized performance horses.

Maybe, now that you have more information, you can accept that this is a case of "to each his own."

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Perhaps now that you have more information, you will acknowledge that these ponies are obviously not being hurt as they often have longer careers than many full sized performance horses.

THIS^^^

Look at Hollywood Dazzle. He won the Modern Formal Pleasure driving Congress championship TEN YEARS in a row, and won the World Championship NINE years in a row! How many stock breed horses- of ANY breed or disipline- can say THAT?

 

[ahrobertspony]

RFP River of Time won her 5th Congress Grand Championship in 2011 at the age of 17. She's been a show pony since she was a yearling. As I pointed out, Moderns by their nature have a tendency to have longer show careers. As a long-term Modern owner & exhibitor, I would like to thank Valshingle for his or her perspective.

Again ... I invite anyone who wants to celebrate society ponies like Moderns or to learn more about the winning-est mare in ASPC Congress history to check out the story about River of Time in the new society pony ezine online at www.societypony.com

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Probably a minor point, but as the comparison was made between foot and cannon bone, it should be pointed out that Moderns and other disciplines that value high, open motion select animals with a long leg, but with a proportionately short cannon bone. So when a cannon bone is used as a point of reference it needs to be understood that it will vary.

Dr Taylor

 

[Leeana]

On a side note, I know that RFP River Of Time has been mentioned several times in this post...if you have ever seen when that mare wins a Congress title how THRILLED the Roberts ladies are! They scream, cry and practically drop to their knee's when that mare wins! Its emotionally moving when I have been sitting at Congress and seen her win in person, and when I am sitting several states away watching her win via livecast. I love watching RFP River Of Time win the Congress just for the Roberts reaction....

Also another Modern who is "moving" (no pun intended) to watch is Davey's Declaration with Mr Sanderson here in Area II - You want to talk about a real treat! There was a photo years ago in the journal of him kissing that pony that sticks in my head. Here is a photo I took of them after a Roadster In Hand class down at Greenville Ohio..

 

[ahrobertspony]

Also another Modern who is "moving" (no pun intended) to watch is Davey's Declaration with Mr Sanderson here in Area II - You want to talk about a real treat! There was a photo years ago in the journal of him kissing that pony that sticks in my head. Here is a photo I took of them after a Roadster In Hand class down at Greenville Ohio..

EXCELLENT POST ... another GREAT example that perfectly illustrates my point about the overall longevity of these ponies as opposed to the supposition that they are doomed to short long-term value because of shoeing.

Davy's Declaration has been around since I was practically a kid! This pony has GOT to be in his mid-20s by now. He's probably been undergoing regular Modern shoeing practices for close to TWO DOZEN years. He's still out there ... still going ... and obviously not crippled.

I purchased thousands of photos when I was with The Journal. That pic of Tom Sanderson kissing good ol' Davy is still one of my all-time favorite pics.

Thanks Leana for pointing out yet another excellent case that does much to refute the long-term damaging effects of Modern shoeing and that further supports what I've said repeatedly about these wonderful ponies' stamina and lengthy viability.

 

[Sandy B]

Your right its a mini forum so why are you talking about the Moderns, and you are right again, I don't know anything about reigning horses so why would I comment on them, the same as you don't know anything about moderns and how we show them, so why would you need to make such ridiculous statements about them!

I believe that you need to go back and read starting at page 1. If you read it ALL you would have your answer.

 

[Sandy B]

THIS^^^

Look at Hollywood Dazzle. He won the Modern Formal Pleasure driving Congress championship TEN YEARS in a row, and won the World Championship NINE years in a row! How many stock breed horses- of ANY breed or disipline- can say THAT?

Actually MANY!

 

[txminipinto]

Good lord....I think everyone just needs to walk away from this topic.

Obviously, EVERYONE has a reply for everyone else's response. As a "pony" person, thank you to all of the individuals (pony people or not) who stepped up and tried to explain the ins and outs. I took a media communication class recently and learned that you can only convert about 20% of the listening audience to your point view. I believe the 20% have been converted and the rest just aren't listening. That said...I'm off to work a pony under saddle. Its too pretty to be in here argueing about toe length, weights, and who's breed has the longest showring longevity.

 

[Sandy B]

Leeana- Once again I can not comment about Shetland Ponies temperaments as I have not been around show ponies to make such a comment. I am sure you could get Foundation and Classic fans riled up with your statement though.

Your comment- THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE bothers me. Is it really in the best interest of the horse or pony? Moderns are bred to be fancy movers, it comes naturally. Many perform and show in a normal to tad bit long toe growth and regular shoes and are champions. If that is the case, why am I seeing some pictures of EXCESSIVELY long toe and weighted shoes? If they are bred to do it, then they should not require that long EXCESSIVE hoof growth and weighted shoes when so many other Moderns shown without that excessiveness.

Valshingle- If I told you that applying caustics to TWH causes no long term affects or bleeding pleasure horses produced no long term issues, does that make it right?

I am going to repeat myself for what feels the millionth time- I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH SHETLAND PONIES NOR MODERNS IN PARTICULAR! I do not have a problem with shoeing Shetlands. I do not have problem even with a small amount of toe and shoes. I DO have a problem with the excessively long over-grown toe and the heavy weighted shoes.

As far as long careers, there are many, many, many stock horse breeds that have veteran show horses that carry many riders to World Titles and Championships well in to their teenage years and beyond. Every breed of horse has exceptional individuals that continue well beyond their youth.

Dr. Taylor- That is a good point. Yes, cannon bones vary in length. Thank you for mentioning. However, from looking at the pictures with a critical eye, I stand by my original comment. Especially when I see other Moderns in pictures with as much action in way less hoof and shoe then the pictures I am referring to.