Just got The Journal in the mail

[StarRidgeAcres]

Oh, and all of my ponies get shoes pulled and hooves trimmed clean after show season & are then let out to pasture for the off season.

Jason, I don't have an answer as to what is a good weight and was is extreme as I don't show ponies and know nothing about them. My comments on this thread are based on my observations and how what I saw struck me. As I said earlier, my observation and $1 will get you a tea at McDonalds. But I did want to say, for whatever it's worth (and again, it's probably nothing) but based on the pictures in the Journal and any time I've seen your horses, I never saw anything that bothered me or I thought was extreme or in any way looked harmful to the horse. Your horses seem happy and healthy - the times I've seen them.

 

[Sandy B]

There is nothing wrong with a horse loving its job. Eagerness and heart to perform is what makes a great show horse. However, I have seen barrel horses flip over in chutes, I have seen them shove or run in to the person who was leading them(rider on) to get them threw gates to go towards the arena entrance, I have seen them leap, buck and run their rider into the panels and break their riders leg on the fence. I have seen cart horses rear, rear and then flip over, strike, leap, etc... It was rare for one to behave pleasantly. This was in the upper level of National perfumers and those trainers want hot. I see that as NOT a good thing.

Now with that being said, I have no idea how the "modern" ponies act so I am not in the position to comment on that. In a previous post someone mentioned that the modern ponies were given a hard time for everything from their temperaments to movement.

If any breed of horse is bred to do something it is the Thoroughbred. They are bred to run. Most of the great runners in history were calm and well behaved in the parade and loading gates. They did not exert their energy until they broke those gates. So why is it that these horses bred to run can be under control and quiet but barrel horses and some other disciplines be out of control? I guess thats a whole different subject.

I guess I am not sure why that is a bad thing? Most barrel horses ready to go love their job, most cow horses excited to go from the chute love their job, most jumpers hard to hold back at the fence love their job. Most of those driving ponies hot and ready to go once hooked love their job.

Are some of those horses in those and other disciplines abused of course but for the most part there is a clear difference in watching a horse who has been beaten to submission or cruelly treated or in pain ect working as opposed to one who is hot and excited and simply loves their job.

 

[Sandy B]

I do not know the answer to that question. The only thing I can say is when you see a hoof grown out that is close to double what its natural state would be and then pads and a weighted shoe, its very extreme. When from the coronet band to the bottom of the shoe is as long as the cannon bone (from top of fetlock to bottom of knee), that is very extreme. If a person went to a ranch and saw a horse in pasture with a hoof as long as some of the hooves I saw in the magazine (minus the shoe & pad) it could be called abusive. With this being said, this was a small percent of what I saw in The Journal pictures of Congress winners. I did see a lot of pictures of what appeared to be barefoot ponies or "normal" shod ponies and some that were slightly long in hoof with a shoe but in the range I would consider acceptable. I know that there will always be a varying difference of opinion in any breed and discipline. So many people think that "more is better" and the horse suffers from these narrow minds. There is nothing wrong with enhancing the performance of a horse within reason and moderation. We as the horses keepers must learn what that is and keep the horses best interest in mind.

I also love to hear that people like you take you show ponies and pull those shoes and trim them back and turn them out. Without seeing your ponies I can bet they are happy and healthy. I love to see great show horses being allowed to be a horse too.

Ok, I've been avoiding commenting on this thread but I've just got to ask this question. What do you consider grown up hooves or extreme wieght on the shoes? I know that in the shetland ring alone that everybody has a different view of what too much wieght is. I was told once by a known trainer in the industry that a good harness pony can't trot without a shoe wieghing at least 15 ozs. Now I think that is wrong and a bit extreme but they defiantly don't think so. As for length of hoof, agian that all depends on who you speak to.

 

[kaykay]

That is nice to know that some people do take the shoes off. Do they trim the hooves back to normal state too? I know the Morgans were never taken off.

Yes the ones I have observed were normal length hooves but remember these are ponies and they have a different conformation than a miniature horse.

I have found through the years that every breed has a bad reputation for something. This is usually due to someone having one bad experience and then blaming an entire breed.

Or someone that is not familiar with a certain breed so they buy into the "bad reputation"

How many times do people say "Arabians are crazy and stupid" Which I have not found to be true at all.

People say Miniature horses are dead heads and nothing more than a big dog. Again not true but you will never convince some people who have never owned a Miniature.

Shetland ponies are nasty tempered. Again so not true.

Modern Shetlands are crazy. Not true.

I could go on and on.

 

[TomEHawk]

Well, for the most part our ponies are happy. There are a few that don't like being worked at all & there is a stud who isn't happy with me because he thinks he needs to be on the trailer everytime it leaves the farm, (doesn't necessarly like being put out to stud). But I agree that every horse/pony needs time to just relax. I get time off so should they. But, back to shoeing for a second. I would like to correct a statement made here a few times, it isn't the AMHR over ponies that are shod, AMHR doesn't allow shoeing except for draft drivers. ASPC ponies are what the problem is with. I do agree that some ponies have over wieghted shoes or too much hoof. But if the pony isn't crippled or unhappy, I don't think there is anything that can be done if the shoes/hoof is within the rules set down by the ASPC/ASPR. Another thing is a quick thing about pads. If the pony is shod up with a wieghted shoe and/or a "built" up hoof, then it would be cruel not ot have a pad. The pad is supposed to do exactly what the name is, it's supposed to "pad" the ponies hoof. At least that is my thoughts.

 

[valshingle]

I have seen cart horses rear, rear and then flip over, strike, leap, etc... It was rare for one to behave pleasantly. This was in the upper level of National perfumers and those trainers want hot. I see that as NOT a good thing.

Which cart horses are you referring to? Morgans, ASPCs, Moderns, or miniatures? I was at Nationals this year and saw one horse rear and get excited in the line up. I know because I was very close by. This particular situation was caused by the drivers sheer excitement when she got a top placing.

If you are referring to miniatures (A or B sized), then I have to take exception to your statement that "it was rare for one to behave pleasantly." I was showing an open pleasure horse and those in the division seemed very well behaved. In fact the vast majority of the driving horses that I saw were extremely well trained and well behaved.

 

[mini horse mania]

Im not jumping into the "whats right or wrong" as I do not know anything about showing,,, but in my opinion, If my horses hooves were that long... the state would have taken mine a long time ago..they tried to take mine for a few cracks in the hooves.. Its just not natural, and that long hoof cant be good for the tendons in the legs....I have never seen that before but wow....some of those are extremely long

 

[disneyhorse]

When it comes to making generalizations about anything... horses in particular... it's hard to make stereotypes without sounding ignorant.

With ANY breed or discipline ... jumpers, reiners, Arabians, race horses, draft horses, Shetlands, minis... obviously there are going to be crazy horses, kid-friendly horses, well-trained horses, green horses, horses mishandled, etc. It is unfair to say "All Modern Shetlands are VERY hot and crazy" or "All minis are gentle, easy to handle, and good with kids."

How you raise and train them says a lot about the horse. And it's not always a Trainer's fault... who knows how that horse was handled before the client sent them to them? Clients expect a lot for their money in a short amount of time.

Here is the same pony I posted a photo of many pages back, but a video this time. He is a three-year-old stallion in this particular video... I made it as sort of a "sales video" of the different things this pony could be capable of. Now, mind you... this pony DOES like to show off at the showgrounds and prances all over the place, and was DEFINITELY a stallion... but Modern ponies have a lot of energy and are bred to like to show. So, you have to channel that energy in a positive manner.


By the way, it was after show season so he's barefoot, had his shoes pulled!!! I really think the majority of pony people do this!!!

It's just not fair to judge EVERYONE on what a FEW people do. It's also not fair to judge a breed on the way a FEW horses act.

Andrea

I've seen lazy Modern Shetlands, I've seen ones that don't like to show, I've seen ones that will take the greatest care of little kids in the cart and in hand, I've seen true athletes that put on a show in the driving ring.

 

[horsehug]

He's adorable and a real beauty, Andrea

Susan O.

 

[TomEHawk]

I've seen lazy Modern Shetlands, I've seen ones that don't like to show, I've seen ones that will take the greatest care of little kids in the cart and in

hand, I've seen true athletes that put on a show in the driving ring.

This is SO true! And, of course, I've had them all in my barn. The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.

I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.

 

[disneyhorse]

Wy is one of the truly amazing ones!!! Thanks for sharing her, Jason!

Andrea

 

[Sandy B]

Thank you for further explanations. Do Shetlands show at AMHR shows and then are they allowed to have shoes? Or is the shoes on allowed at ASPC shows? Unfortunately association rules are not always in the best interest of the horses. I have seen many breeds and organizations that battle over issues, its the nature of the beast.

Well, for the most part our ponies are happy. There are a few that don't like being worked at all & there is a stud who isn't happy with me because he thinks he needs to be on the trailer everytime it leaves the farm, (doesn't necessarly like being put out to stud). But I agree that every horse/pony needs time to just relax. I get time off so should they. But, back to shoeing for a second. I would like to correct a statement made here a few times, it isn't the AMHR over ponies that are shod, AMHR doesn't allow shoeing except for draft drivers. ASPC ponies are what the problem is with. I do agree that some ponies have over wieghted shoes or too much hoof. But if the pony isn't crippled or unhappy, I don't think there is anything that can be done if the shoes/hoof is within the rules set down by the ASPC/ASPR. Another thing is a quick thing about pads. If the pony is shod up with a wieghted shoe and/or a "built" up hoof, then it would be cruel not ot have a pad. The pad is supposed to do exactly what the name is, it's supposed to "pad" the ponies hoof. At least that is my thoughts.

 

[Sandy B]

I apologize I should have made that clearer- Both Morgans & Saddlebreds

Which cart horses are you referring to? Morgans, ASPCs, Moderns, or miniatures? I was at Nationals this year and saw one horse rear and get excited in the line up. I know because I was very close by. This particular situation was caused by the drivers sheer excitement when she got a top placing.

If you are referring to miniatures (A or B sized), then I have to take exception to your statement that "it was rare for one to behave pleasantly." I was showing an open pleasure horse and those in the division seemed very well behaved. In fact the vast majority of the driving horses that I saw were extremely well trained and well behaved.

 

[Sandy B]

When it comes to making generalizations about anything... horses in particular... it's hard to make stereotypes without sounding ignorant.

With ANY breed or discipline ... jumpers, reiners, Arabians, race horses, draft horses, Shetlands, minis... obviously there are going to be crazy horses, kid-friendly horses, well-trained horses, green horses, horses mishandled, etc. It is unfair to say "All Modern Shetlands are VERY hot and crazy" or "All minis are gentle, easy to handle, and good with kids."

How you raise and train them says a lot about the horse. And it's not always a Trainer's fault... who knows how that horse was handled before the client sent them to them? Clients expect a lot for their money in a short amount of time.

Here is the same pony I posted a photo of many pages back, but a video this time. He is a three-year-old stallion in this particular video... I made it as sort of a "sales video" of the different things this pony could be capable of. Now, mind you... this pony DOES like to show off at the showgrounds and prances all over the place, and was DEFINITELY a stallion... but Modern ponies have a lot of energy and are bred to like to show. So, you have to channel that energy in a positive manner.

Gorgeous boy! I am not judging the breed (again I thought it was AMHR in the beginning) of Shetlands as a whole. Again it is strictly the handful of photos that I saw in the current issue of The Journal that shocked me and made me sad. I have not been around Shetland Ponies to be able to judge their temperaments, well except for my incredible childhood pony who I did everything on for 10 years and he was part Shetland. And I agree so much of the horse's attitude and actions are how they are raised and then trained and what they are allowed to get away with.

 

[Sandy B]

Wow! She is fabulous! Look at that hind end power! And I did notice she did not have much hoof and I would find that completely acceptable. That is wonderful to hear such an outstanding mare can compete in many events with different ages and abilities. She is a true show horse and I love the fact that she is a mare! Got to love those mares!! Mare power!

This is SO true! And, of course, I've had them all in my barn. The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.

I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.

View attachment 4302 View attachment 4303

 

[ahrobertspony]

The American Shetland Pony Club, Inc., was formed in 1888. Over the years it has grown. It offers Shetland registration in several divisions: Modern, Modern Pleasure, Classic and Foundation. Modern are the most animated. Foundation are the most conservative and should be the most like the ponies from the halcyon days of the Shetland breed.

The ASPC started the AMHR in 1971. AMHR is the oldest miniature horse registry.

The ASPC's newest registries are the American Show Pony Registry and the NSPR.

Some rules of the association govern all divisions. However, each breed has it's own rules. The Modern Shetland rules are techincally the OLDEST of the association and tie back into all that has been created and learned in 123 years.

The ASPC, Inc., sanctions many shows offering classes for ALL divisions. It is not uncommon to see Shetlands and Minis showing at the same show any given weekend of the summer. The classes all have rules and regulations. The divisions all have rules and regulations. Stewards are employed at every show to help keep it all straight.

Only the Miniature divisions prohibit shoes. The other breeds & divisions all have varying rules.

If you are TRULY interested, then I recommend you contact the ASPC home office and obtain a current ASPC/AMHR/ASPR rulebook.

Today, thanks to the tough economy that makes for a tougher equine economy further made difficult by droughts, high fuel costs and no viable human slaughter options, the state is going to be hard pressed to get involved over shoeing. Officials can't even truly keep up with REAL neglect. The Moderns you see might have feet that YOU find to be too long, but they are still well fed ... have their feet professionally managed ... have good access to vet care, etc. I know at my house, the family does without on a lot of things simply because we have ponies and they come first.

Something else to remember ... tendons, muscles, etc., develop and change OVER TIME ...as the hoof grows, the physical structure changes to accommodate that. You don't just wake up one morning w/ a 2-3" hoof! You want to cause the pony discomfort? You want to make them sore? Immediate pulling of the shoes & reduction of the hoof of those you think are too long would do way more to make the pony uncomfortable than the slow build up to that point does.

Of course, that's just my opinion ... developed over time since my family joined the ASPC in 1968 & started attending registry shows in the early 70s with a couple of dozen annual conventions & more than 30 Congress thrown in . And, it's based on having a barn full of ponies JUST LIKE River of Time ... who is fat & sassy & rearing to go in this cool weather and looks nothing like that fancy turnout or halter pic ... which goes to show ... you can't really know absolutely everything about a situation from looking at a picture.

 

[mydaddysjag]

I can say that Jason (exspony) DOES indeed pull shoes, has them to a normal field trim, and turns them out for the winter. I bought a horse from him a few years back, and we drove out Illinois to pick out a gelding in January. The only horses in the barn were the geldings he kept in that day for me to see, and a couple stallions that I believe got separate turnout. Everyone else was outside playing in the snow. I didn't see shoes on any of the horses I looked at, and they all had nice field trims. I looked at about 7 horses that day, weanlings through proven show horses, Both minis and shetlands, and I wouldn't have called any of them nutty.

Every breed has things some exhibitors might not agree with or like, but just because it isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean you should bash it without knowing more about it. I see you also show reiners. A lot of people feel that is very hard on their joints and causes premature arthritis. Now, Im not knocking you, because I ran barrel horses for about 7 years, but some people who aren't educated on the discipline may feel that is cruel. As far as nutty, I ran barrel horses, you know the general consensus about them being hot. My 1D mare was the safest horse I have ever ridden, You could walk her in the pen, run your pattern, walk back out, drop your reins, and she would stand until it was time to run again. Shes a horse you could trust with anyone of any age. Just because people say certain kinds or breeds of horses are nutty, doesn't necessarily mean they are.

 

[Sandy B]

I can say that Jason (exspony) DOES indeed pull shoes, has them to a normal field trim, and turns them out for the winter. I bought a horse from him a few years back, and we drove out Illinois to pick out a gelding in January. The only horses in the barn were the geldings he kept in that day for me to see, and a couple stallions that I believe got separate turnout. Everyone else was outside playing in the snow. I didn't see shoes on any of the horses I looked at, and they all had nice field trims. I looked at about 7 horses that day, weanlings through proven show horses, Both minis and shetlands, and I wouldn't have called any of them nutty.

Every breed has things some exhibitors might not agree with or like, but just because it isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean you should bash it without knowing more about it. I see you also show reiners. A lot of people feel that is very hard on their joints and causes premature arthritis. Now, Im not knocking you, because I ran barrel horses for about 7 years, but some people who aren't educated on the discipline may feel that is cruel. As far as nutty, I ran barrel horses, you know the general consensus about them being hot. My 1D mare was the safest horse I have ever ridden, You could walk her in the pen, run your pattern, walk back out, drop your reins, and she would stand until it was time to run again. Shes a horse you could trust with anyone of any age. Just because people say certain kinds or breeds of horses are nutty, doesn't necessarily mean they are.

Are you insinuating that I do not believe that Jason pulls the shoes off his ponies? And that his ponies are nutty? I am not quite sure how to read your post.

Could you please quote me where I am bashing the breed? And unfortunately yes, many reiners, cutters, barrel horses, well in fact many performance breeds and disciplines develop arthritis at early ages due to the wear and tear and the predisposed factors. I NEVER said EVERY driving horse, nor barrel racer was crazy. I NEVER said Modern Shetland Ponies were crazy. In fact in a few posts down I said that I had no experience with Shetland Ponies so I could not comment on their temperaments. There are ALWAYS exceptional individuals in every event who handle themselves calmly. I can tell you when you watch any barrel race, the majority (I did not say ALL) are prancing & leaping and some almost on the verge of possibly being out of control. I am not bashing barrel horses here either, it unfortunately is the nature of the beast.

This thread was never about the temperaments of over minis or Shetlands. It was only about the length of foot and big shoes on some of the pictures that were posted in the current issue of The Journal.

 

[Sandy B]

The American Shetland Pony Club, Inc., was formed in 1888. Over the years it has grown. It offers Shetland registration in several divisions: Modern, Modern Pleasure, Classic and Foundation. Modern are the most animated. Foundation are the most conservative and should be the most like the ponies from the halcyon days of the Shetland breed.

The ASPC started the AMHR in 1971. AMHR is the oldest miniature horse registry.

The ASPC's newest registries are the American Show Pony Registry and the NSPR.

Some rules of the association govern all divisions. However, each breed has it's own rules. The Modern Shetland rules are techincally the OLDEST of the association and tie back into all that has been created and learned in 123 years.

The ASPC, Inc., sanctions many shows offering classes for ALL divisions. It is not uncommon to see Shetlands and Minis showing at the same show any given weekend of the summer. The classes all have rules and regulations. The divisions all have rules and regulations. Stewards are employed at every show to help keep it all straight.

Only the Miniature divisions prohibit shoes. The other breeds & divisions all have varying rules.

If you are TRULY interested, then I recommend you contact the ASPC home office and obtain a current ASPC/AMHR/ASPR rulebook.

Today, thanks to the tough economy that makes for a tougher equine economy further made difficult by droughts, high fuel costs and no viable human slaughter options, the state is going to be hard pressed to get involved over shoeing. Officials can't even truly keep up with REAL neglect. The Moderns you see might have feet that YOU find to be too long, but they are still well fed ... have their feet professionally managed ... have good access to vet care, etc. I know at my house, the family does without on a lot of things simply because we have ponies and they come first.

Something else to remember ... tendons, muscles, etc., develop and change OVER TIME ...as the hoof grows, the physical structure changes to accommodate that. You don't just wake up one morning w/ a 2-3" hoof! You want to cause the pony discomfort? You want to make them sore? Immediate pulling of the shoes & reduction of the hoof of those you think are too long would do way more to make the pony uncomfortable than the slow build up to that point does.

Of course, that's just my opinion ... developed over time since my family joined the ASPC in 1968 & started attending registry shows in the early 70s with a couple of dozen annual conventions & more than 30 Congress thrown in . And, it's based on having a barn full of ponies JUST LIKE River of Time ... who is fat & sassy & rearing to go in this cool weather and looks nothing like that fancy turnout or halter pic ... which goes to show ... you can't really know absolutely everything about a situation from looking at a picture.

Thank you for the history lesson. Very interesting. You said that there several registration divisions in the Shetlands. Can one individual pony be registered in multiple divisions? Can one pony have a background that is both say Modern and Classic? If so, how do you determine what registry the pony falls under?

I agree, there is not enough man power and crew to police any changes that happened to be made anyways. People are just in survival mode right now. I NEVER said that the long hoofed ponies were not well fed or cared for in other ways. I do agree chopping a hoof off that is long and pulling of shoes can cause pain and discomfort. Thats why when horses with over-grown hooves are trimmed it has to be in stages as to not cause other issues. Hooves grow at different rates and a lot depends on the age of the horse. Tendons and ligaments are made to be a certain way.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Not insinuating that you dont believe jason, just pointing it out to everyone. Jason and his family show a lot of moderns, and do quite well at congress. Honestly, Its just the most moderns Ive ever seen in one place. Right now I only have AMHR and AMHA horses, (hopefully some AMHR/ASPC in the future) so I dont go to the ASPC shows, and cant comment on the horses there.

Im not quite sure where this thread is going, you strongly insinuate things, then when people comment on them, you come back with "I never said that". If I were someone who had Shetlands, I would be insulted just by the title of your thread, and tone of your posts.