Just some of my own thoughts and feelings

[Minimor]

Over and over again (and I've seen something similar on this thread) people say things like the "big breeders don't always get show quality foals; some are pet quality". I wonder if, by making a statement like this, people are saying that the "big" breeders are producing enough of both kinds of mini, so nobody else should (or has the right to) breed?
If so, what kind of double standard is that? To say "well, I breed for 30 foals a year and if half of them are pet quality that means that other people (small breeders/back-yard breeders, call them what you will) have to breed less because of the 15 "pets" I will produce."

IMHO it isn't the small breeders who are flooding the market.

I haven't seen posts so much to the effect of "big breeders" producing pets--what I've read is more to the effect that even breeders using top quality, show champion stock for breeding end up producing a certain percentage of pet animals. When you can breed two top quality horses and come out with pet stock, why would anyone deliberately breed two pet quality animals with multiple faults, just for the sake of having a cute baby. That is what I read, which isn't quite the same as "big" breeders.

And yes, actually small (as in numbers) breeders are flooding the market. For every breeder that produces 40 foals a year there are probably 20 breeders producing 2 to 10 foals a year. It all works out to the same thing. In actual fact, all combined the small numbers breeders probably produce more foals than the big numbers breeders do, just because there are so many more of them.

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Susan, WONDERFUL POST I agree with you 100%. I fall into the catagory of breeding, not showing. Everyone I have is registered and I have had alot of "show" people critique my foals, they have all told me they are definitely show quality and I need to get out and start showing, to get my name out there...know what...I have no interest in that end, but I love breeding and having my foals. That will never change! To me the most important factor when breeding is to find the "perfect" home for that baby, if the breeder is unable to keep that foal. Not everyones opinion is going to be the same for every horse, but the bottom line is the owner loves that horse regardless of faults and we should all learn to respect that. Corinne

 

[AppyLover2]

The term "big breeders" are the words I chose to use because I was trying very hard not to quote anyone nor point fingers at any one. You phrased the point I was trying to make much more eloquently than I did.

When you can breed two top quality horses and come out with pet stock, why would anyone deliberately breed two pet quality animals with multiple faults, just for the sake of having a cute baby.

And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

And, lastly, to me (with my herd of 3) someone who raises 10 foals a year is not "small".

Obviously, all of this is a matter of opinion. And we all know they're like belly buttons - everybody has one. But differing opinions doesn't give anyone the right to tell others what to do or not to do.

Again JMHO.

 

[disneyhorse]

And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults".

I feel if you "can't afford top quality horses" then NO, you shouldn't be breeding. Rather than buy three mares for $1,000 and a stallion for $1,000 and breed them to make more lesser-quality horses, you can spend $4,000 on a top quality horse, and then breed it to a National Champion stallion that you carefully select stud service for, if you MUST because you feel "deprived" of the joy and pride of seeing YOUR own foals born.

Top breeders usually (not always, but usually) have the land and money to invest in a top quality breeding program. They are striving to produce show quality horses that will advertise their farm and reputation.

I don't feel there is anything bad about "backyard breeders" that are willing to buy top quality horses for breeding. It's the ones who breed pet quality, NON-top-show-quality animals, just for their own personal greed, be it monetary or just greed that THEY want to experience having a foal, even if it's just generic and "cute". It's not hard to have quality versus quantity.

Andrea

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well I think most of us know the reality is.. show quality or show record surely does not equal breeding quality. Many horses do well do to great handling, some are beautiful and cant come close to reproducing themselves...

Some people dont like to show and will not make that a part of there program that is never a decision maker or breaker for me in a purchase of a breeding animal. Heck I can take a top show horse walk it in the ring and get the gate cause I am not a good halter handler and someone else can take that same horse present it, condition it and walk out the winner the animal hasnt changed .

Of course that isnt an excuse for me to throw quality and conformation out the window my goal is to breed and own horses that with the right person presenting can hold there own and I am on my way to that heck some of my horses do good with me handling in spite of me.

If it were as easy as breeding a National champion to a National champion we would all have them - if it were as easy as paying big bucks for a horse to get a quality foal again there sure would be more quality then not. The key here for me and me alone is to be able to see my horses for what they are - to acknowledge there faults to see there good qualities. If I am unable to be honest with myself in that then i will never be able to make decisions to improve my own herd.

Do others do things different then I of course.. who is to say who is right? who is to say who cares more about the breed and ethics? Bottom line is I cannot change everyone else nor can I run there programs I can only strive to do the best I can with what I have, make decisions to improve and change my own herd and make sure i am as willing to see the flaws in my own program as I am to see it in others.

Bottom line is this is an argument we can have till the cows come home. If each one of us is doing the best that we can to improve our herd, our knowledge and the breed even though we are all at very different points in our journey with miniature horses then we are doing what we can.

 

[Morning Dusk]

I just thought I would like to add something here if you didn't mind of course

Well see I have always been dreaming of getting a horse ever since I could remember, and my parents always told me that we couldn't afford one, but if we did have the money they would surely get me one no doubt. After countless times of begging and pleading [yes I did this!] with always the same answer every single time I then turned to miniature horses after seeing someone post about them on another forum I go to. Well after doing much much research I came to a decision that I wanted a miniature instead! I found that they are of course much cheaper than having up keep on a regular sized horse and you can do alot of stuff with them too! I am just so happy right now thinking that I will get a mini soon, to which I will. I have been currently saving up my money and just waiting until I can finally get a horse of my own.

 

[horsehug]

Morning Dusk,

You sound like me....... from as early as memories go back for me!

Be sure to let us know when you do get your horse!! ))

Susan O.

 

[Morning Dusk]

Morning Dusk,

You sound like me....... from as early as memories go back for me!

Be sure to let us know when you do get your horse!! ))

Susan O.

Thanks Susan! And I will be SURE to let ya'll know when I get my mini ( If I can I'll drown ya'll with pictures

: )

 

[Danielle_E.]

And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

First I would like to ask those that keep talking about "show quality" EXACTLY what your definition is. Some are speaking like "pet" quality are these deformed individuals

: What is your definition of "pet" quality??? Is "pet quality" any miniature horse that doesn't win at Nationals or make top 10???? It's a question that I have been asking myself because so many of you keep throwing out the terminilogy of "show quality". Is "show quality" minis that are shown period, whether at the local level or at Nationals? I have a gelding which I consider "pet" quality in the sense that he wouldn't win at Nationals BUT I showed him locally and he did well, he even beat my mare, lol, in one class and she IS what I call show quality. Now this gelding, Storm, who is not "National" material would be the one horse in my herd that I would NEVER part with

: . Why you ask? Because today my grandaughter (turned 5) and had a birthday party with a bunch of VERY loud children, lol. I still have a headache. This dear sweet, what you would call "pet" quality, allowed each child to ride him and in a calm and sane manner, with our dog trying to get into the action and running around like an idiot

: Each child had their picture taken and took that picture home with them. These kids had never been up close to a horse (full size or mini). This was a wonderful way to introduce them to equines and if you would have seen the look on these childrens faces..... So my so called "pet" quality gelding is WORTH HIS WEIGHT IN GOLD and I wouldn't trade him for ANY "show quality" based on the definition those of you who keep mentioning. I am not interested in showing at the National level first because of distance, there is absolutely no way that I can take the time out of my schedule as it is and make such a trip. I will be showing locally this summer. For some I understand that is what they aspire to, Nationals and I say more power to you but please don't put the so called "backyard" breeders down thinking they have inferior stock because they don't show. I am also going to say something that will probably make alot of people angry but it's something I have thought before this thread happened, thought it on other threads that have appeared here. Some that give an opinion on a thread, whether a critique, or when a "show quality" creeps up in a thread, well they perhaps are a little barn blind, like many of us, to what they have and yet they keep speaking as if their stock is ALL "show quality".... Okay my flame suit is on, fire away.

Oh the other statement that I don't agree with is the one where "show quality" minis have to be BIG $$$. Huh? So if the price tag is high and it comes from a well known farm, then you should buy it? even though you might have spotted a "show quality" mini for less $$ that you like but because it's from a so called "backyard" breeder it's not as good??? :no:

 

[Marty]

Nevermind........I'm just shutting up..........it's safer that way!

 

[kaykay]

i have purposely stayed off this thread but just cant tonight

why do these threads always turn into show vs non show. And why is it that if you show your horse is it implied that you dont love it as much as someone who doesnt show?? thats crazy!

some years i show a lot. some i hardly show at all. just depends on finances, life situation etc.

and then why do people say its all politics if a horse wins?? I am a NOBODY on the show circuit. we do everything ourselves. We work our butts off and manage to come out with ribbons and placings. Not because of politics but because of a lot of hard work and some nice horses.

EVERY horse has value. From the unregistered horse to the rescue that needed a home to the national champion. I love them all the same

:

I show because i love the feeling of belonging to a group that is as crazy as horses as i am. I can go to a show and talk horses non stop and i dont get the glazed over look lol. I have learned more about breeding, training etc after the show is over and we are all just sitting around then I could ever learn from a book

 

[Buckskin gal]

I will give you my thoughts and feelings, since you asked. First, I don't think we all need to pay huge amounts to own quality horses...it does take some knowledge and time to acquire those quality horses. I am not a person that can take my horses to Nationals but even if I don't show I still want to breed for the very best I can, when I do a breeding. My horses are my enjoyment and I truly enjoy a beautiful animal. When most people talk about "pet" quality, I think they are referring to those who wouldn't do well in the ring...but having a "pet" is something different. A "pet" is one we sorta dote on and love to be around and it can be the quality to do well in the ring. For me the pride and joy comes form having these creatures, not from breeding them, but to own one that is gorgeous that I bred does make me feel good because that is what Ithink breeding should be about....breeding for a horse you think is gorgeous!.

Un fortunately when I hear of "pet quality" I do get a picture of something that would not do well in the ring. There is pet quality/show quality but that does not mean our show quality has to be shown. I figure it costs me just as much to maintain a "pet" quality as a "show" quality so why not have the show quality because they are more pleasing to my eye. Don't worry about what you have in your pasture as long as you enjoy it. But for breeding, look for quality because there is more to breeding than just having cute foals. Maybe you could stop seeing "Show quality"as something negative and just refer to horses that closely meet the Standard of Perfection as the kind to breed, if breeding has to be done. I do think "show quality" is referring to horses that will do well in the ring because they closely meet the Standard....but I am sure there are some that refer to theirs as "show quality" but really wouldn't do well in the ring. Even judges have different opinions and don't always pick the same for their choice. We have to remember that it is ourselves that needs to know the Standard of Perfection and not rely solely on what a judge may pick as their favorite. I don't feel bad if someone would call me a backyard breeder because I am just a humble 8 to 10 horse owner with no intention of ever doing a bunch of breeding....but I still will have the best I can here because I think if I am going to do any breeding, even one otr two a year, I should breed by the Standard because that is what it is for. As for a mini being better coming from a big breeder versus a small breeder, I tend to think the bigger breeder is going to be keeping their very best and selling the rest while sometimes a small breeder may let a good one go if it will be promoted and have a special home. Just my two cents in response to your questions. One thing about it, if we have really nice horses no one is going to put them down. Mary

And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

First I would like to ask those that keep talking about "show quality" EXACTLY what your definition is. Some are speaking like "pet" quality are these deformed individuals

: What is your definition of "pet" quality??? Is "pet quality" any miniature horse that doesn't win at Nationals or make top 10???? It's a question that I have been asking myself because so many of you keep throwing out the terminilogy of "show quality". Is "show quality" minis that are shown period, whether at the local level or at Nationals? I have a gelding which I consider "pet" quality in the sense that he wouldn't win at Nationals BUT I showed him locally and he did well, he even beat my mare, lol, in one class and she IS what I call show quality. Now this gelding, Storm, who is not "National" material would be the one horse in my herd that I would NEVER part with

: . Why you ask? Because today my grandaughter (turned 5) and had a birthday party with a bunch of VERY loud children, lol. I still have a headache. This dear sweet, what you would call "pet" quality, allowed each child to ride him and in a calm and sane manner, with our dog trying to get into the action and running around like an idiot

: Each child had their picture taken and took that picture home with them. These kids had never been up close to a horse (full size or mini). This was a wonderful way to introduce them to equines and if you would have seen the look on these childrens faces..... So my so called "pet" quality gelding is WORTH HIS WEIGHT IN GOLD and I wouldn't trade him for ANY "show quality" based on the definition those of you who keep mentioning. I am not interested in showing at the National level first because of distance, there is absolutely no way that I can take the time out of my schedule as it is and make such a trip. I will be showing locally this summer. For some I understand that is what they aspire to, Nationals and I say more power to you but please don't put the so called "backyard" breeders down thinking they have inferior stock because they don't show. I am also going to say something that will probably make alot of people angry but it's something I have thought before this thread happened, thought it on other threads that have appeared here. Some that give an opinion on a thread, whether a critique, or when a "show quality" creeps up in a thread, well they perhaps are a little barn blind, like many of us, to what they have and yet they keep speaking as if their stock is ALL "show quality".... Okay my flame suit is on, fire away.

Oh the other statement that I don't agree with is the one where "show quality" minis have to be BIG $$$. Huh? So if the price tag is high and it comes from a well known farm, then you should buy it? even though you might have spotted a "show quality" mini for less $$ that you like but because it's from a so called "backyard" breeder it's not as good??? :no:

 

[Leeana]

I will just go back to not sharing my opinion, not going to appologize for my opinion though.

 

[Danielle_E.]

:aktion033: THANK YOU Buckskin gal for answering my post!!!

why do these threads always turn into show vs non show. And why is it that if you show your horse is it implied that you dont love it as much as someone who doesnt show?? thats crazy!

Kaykay, I am sorry that you took the meaning of what has been said to mean that people who show their horses don't love their minis as much as people who keep them as pets and don't show. I didn't take any of this thread to mean that at all.

I guess I just don't like the termilogoy "show quality" and "pet quality". A "pet" doesn't always mean "non show quality" I think we need to start using two simple words "quality" versus non-quality based on the breed standard. I think that would probably stop the heated discussion because "show" and "pet" have absolutely nothing to do with "the quality" of the miniature horse.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Okay, now I am with Marty :nono:

Another thing to ponder on. Show history cannot always mean to much. Yes a horse may place 1st EVERY TIME and take so many grands ..but what do them other horses look like he/she is competing agianst. The other horses in that horses class may be pure crap quality ...that doesnt say anything for the horse that wins really IMO. If you want to see what is QUALITY winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs.

The words "crap quality" and "what is quality winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs". Those two things are extremely inflammatory and are what causes the division on this forum, that kind of mentality really drives me nuts

: . Crap quality is an oxymoron so you must be meaning "crap", crap and quality don't go together. On the second point the local fairs WERE the only avenue that miniature horse owners had to "show" their minis in for many years where I reside and it's only fairly recently that thanks to some dedicated individuals that we now have some recognized AMHR shows in our province. I have seen some VERY well bred minis at local fairs that HAVE gone on to U.S. Nationals and made top 10. I find it EXTREMELY offensive and quite ignorant that such a statement would be made. Am I surprised? No, given some of the things I have read by some breeders in this thread. I am done with this topic if that is the mentality that is out there.

 

[Marty]

Another thing to ponder on. Show history cannot always mean to much. Yes a horse may place 1st EVERY TIME and take so many grands ..but what do them other horses look like he/she is competing agianst. The other horses in that horses class may be pure crap quality ...that doesnt say anything for the horse that wins really IMO. If you want to see what is QUALITY winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs.

YIKES! Now that's harsh!

 

[Minimor]

But differing opinions doesn't give anyone the right to tell others what to do or not to do.

Of course not. But, when someone comes on here, posts a photo, and asks 'is this horse worth showing'--chances are, to some the horse will be worth showing. To others, the horse will not be worth showing. If I were to reply "I wouldn't show that horse" I am not telling the owner what to do....I am simply posting my opinion and saying that if the horse were mine, I wouldn't show him. Take that however you like, but it's simply answering the question. If the owner doesn't want to hear anything negative, then he or she should say " is this horse worth showing? Please don't answer unless you are going to say yes!" I have some horses which I feel are not worth showing, and I will not show them. I have others that I feel have a chance in the ring. No doubt there are people who would feel those horses are--by their standards--not worth showing. That's perfectly fine. I'm simply not going to post pictures and ask for everyone's opinions. Why not? Because it doesn't matter. They're my horses & if I choose to show them I will--as long as I believe in them, that's all that matters to me. If they win, great, if they don't, well, then they don't. Another day they might. Or maybe they won't.
And please, in my mind there is a difference between pet and pet quality. A pet can be anything from someone's dwarf to someone's national champion. Pet quality, however, isn't likely to win champion anything--and yes, pet quality most probably does have some faults. Plural. If it didn't have faults, it probably wouldn't be "pet quality". And sure, everyone has different ideas as to what is or isn't show quality, breeding quality or pet quality. But don't get your knickers in a knot because you think I (amongst others) consider pet horses to be poor quality just because they are pets and not show horses. That is not what I said.

 

[Tango]

This has been a great topic. Everyone has very valid points and everyone's opinion counts. There is a mini for every person and every puprose. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and "show quality" is the opinion of the judges.

In my opinion, for those that truly would like to see improvement in the quality of minis being bred, whether by "pet" breeders or "show" breeders, then Geld, Geld, Geld! For anyone that feels that someone else's breeding program is inferior to their own, take a good honest look at your own programs, then make sure those colts that you produce are gelded before leaving the farm unless those colts have been proven in the show ring. That would be a first step in the direction of helping to insure that better quality stock is available for breeding. That would also help to increase the value of the miniature as a breed. If there are fewer "inferior" stallions to be had then better quality stallions will be available and more geldings will be available to fill the "pet" market.

:

Nikki Faubus

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Quote:-

that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

OK, second go at this!!! (I just deleted a whole lot

)

IF you cannot afford good stock you wait.

Simple as that, you wait until you can.

Believe it or not we cannot all have exactly what we want at exactly the moment we want it.

We have to be able to afford it and, if we can't we have to be able to save and get it.

You can jump up and down and shout that your Skoda (VW whatever- I am not very good at cars!!) is as good as an Alfa Romeo (Porsche, whatever) BUT at the end of the day saying it isn't fair you can't afford a Porsche will not get you one.

And, were you able to breed cars, breeding two VW's together would NEVER get you a Porsche and if that were your aim it would be ludicrous.

If however you wished to breed VW's- well, fine, just stop saying they are Porsches really!!

If you want to breed Miniature horses WHY would you not get good quality animals- if you want to breed ANYTHING why on earth would you not get good quality animals??

Why, in this day and age when we hear every day of high class animals, often in foal, going for a song in auctions, would you choose to breed animals ONLY capable of being pets??

Buy a second hand horse down on it's luck, from a market, and love it- it will be more than happy being a pet, believe me!!

"Pet quality" to me means it has a number of qualities I would not find desirable in a breeding animal- it has NOTHING to do with "Showing" at all- I have in fact had a number of animals over the years that I have not, for various reasons, shown, but that have made very good breeding animals.

There is nothing wrong with breeding two second rate animals and having a foal for yourself if that is what you want, and so long as nothing about them is life threateningly wrong- there is nothing right about it, either and it is contributing NOTHING to the good of the breed.

I am attempting to better the breed, I do not sacrifice temperament, I do not sacrifice conformation, I do not cut corners nor use sweats nor digitally enhanced photos to lull you into thinking that my horses are better than they are.

Do I always have top quality animals??

Show animals??

No, of course not- I have a really nice colt at the moment who would be a wow in harness, but is just a wee bit too heavy for Halter- IMO- BUT he is sound, has a movement to die for, has a good nature even though at present he is ungelded.

He also has two fully descended testicles, is fully halter trained and good to clip his feet are pared and he is ready to go.

He stands 291/2" at coming one year old and is a lovely boy.

If you came to me for a pet this is what I would suggest, and you could buy him from me, so long as you were the right home, for around $600.00- if you were buying two together I would give a concession as gelding two is a bit more expensive- the only other colt I have is a 25" top show quality in every way boy- you could buy him on a gelding contract, to be a well loved pet, for the same money as what I want for my animals is GOOD HOMES!!

I could not care a fig if they are shown or not- of course I like seeing them shown, it is great, but if they are bought as pets, well, the first thing is that they are well loved and looked after- isn't it??

OK, sorry, I am hogging the thread- I will stop now and let someone indignantly rip me to pieces

:

 

[miniappy]

I havent joined this forum, as I have found it, and others, only results in hurt feelings BUT...this subject is just too close to my heart to ignore! In this land of the free, any American is due their opinion. My Fore fathers fought and died for the right of free speach, and our own personal opinion!!!! These are our given rights as Americans! These little ones are here for us to love and cherish, not to fight as to who's horse should be gelded, who's horse is "pet" quality, or who should be shown. This is a venture that is suppose to be full of love and caring persons towards minis!!! (and each other) I do not imply that I am in any way an expert, but the experence I have had with showing and trainers, is devestating. I dont have the heart to not let a horse (or any animal) be allowed to be what God intended. Happy, healthy, and able to have a full life. I have beautiful horses, I have bought from beautiful people, and only 1 person had the opinion that my stallion wasnt good enough to bred, and should be a gelding. Well he isnt, and throws beautiful foals that have made many happy, isnt that what we are doing? Putting smile on peoples faces? All things arent for all people, its that American thing again. Susan O. You keep up the work you are doing promoting these guys for what they really are, ADORABLE!! Thats just my opinion. Connie Roundy