Let's Take a Look at AMHR Now

[Reble]

If it is just a measuring issue?

We only show here in Ontario, so maybe my opinion will not matter.

We do have AMHA / AMHR / FBR horses.

We are not worried about the bigger horses coming in.

I just cannot understand why some are so upset if measured bigger, for breeders to worry about .50" - 1" difference from the withers or last mane.

We will not take the chance and buy, for our breeding program, a mare or a stallion that is 33.50" - 34.00" to breed and have more of a chance of my bloodline going over the measurement for AMHA to just have the taller horse in a class.

Yes, the smaller ones can also go over but that is why I have our horses with both.

In the show classes the Judge, is too put the smaller horse first if there is tie.

I thought the AMHA was created to have the best conformation miniature horse. That is what we are breeding for.

The trend right now is taller, this too will pass. Change is what makes us grow.

Too me it looks like the problem is in the showing, rules are being broken.

Someday we would love to go to the Nationals and Watch, yes, ONLY Watch.

With AMHA we like the DNA and we are hoping AMHR will soon follow.

 

[Mona]

I personally would not have had ANY problem with taller horses being accepted into AMHA IF it had been done legitimately, and not by being beat down that way, so trying to sneak it in another way. It is the way it was approved, and the reasons why that have my dander up! It is ALL SOOOOOOOOO VERY WRONG in my opinion, but that is just my opinion, and I am enitled to it!

Edited to add: Yes, you are right, the problem IS in the showing and that the rules are being broken. THAT is what should have been remedied...enforce the rules currently in place!

If it is just a measuring issue?

We only show here in Ontario, so maybe my opinion will not matter.

We do have AMHA / AMHR / FBR horses.

We are not worried about the bigger horses coming in.

I just cannot understand why some are so upset if measured bigger, for breeders to worry about .50" - 1" difference from the withers or last mane.

We will not take the chance and buy, for our breeding program, a mare or a stallion that is 33.50" - 34.00" to breed and have more of a chance of my bloodline going over the measurement for AMHA to just have the taller horse in a class.

Yes, the smaller ones can also go over but that is why I have our horses with both.

In the show classes the Judge, is too put the smaller horse first if there is tie.

I thought the AMHA was created to have the best conformation miniature horse. That is what we are breeding for.

The trend right now is taller, this too will pass. Change is what makes us grow.

Too me it looks like the problem is in the showing, rules are being broken.

Someday we would love to go to the Nationals and Watch, yes, ONLY Watch.

With AMHA we like the DNA and we are hoping AMHR will soon follow.

 

[Leeana]

This thread was started to take heat off the AMHA topics, and to try and make amhr look just as rediculous as amha is looking. I will not even bother to read the original post. This is rediculous

 

[shelia]

Since the original topic was about AMHR I believe it is okay to post my complaint about them. I live in northern California and there are no AMHR shows anywhere near me. Most of my horses are double registared and I would love to participate in both. The reason an R horse seems to have no value out here is because there is nowhere to show them! If ASPC/AMHR is doing so well where are they? I think there was 1 R show within 200 miles of me last year, but it was cancelled this year. If I remember right, attendance was high. I am fairly new at all of this so I feel a little like an outsider. As an outsider it appears that it is an Eastcoast/westcoast thing. What can be done about this?

I will not get into the politics of how either restisrty is being run because I am new to both. I have not yet formed an opinion on the height thing. (but that would belong in a different thread)

I will continue to double register my horses for now because I want them to be valuable for anybody in any location who might want one.

 

[kaykay]

HI Sheila

The best thing to do if there are no shows in your area is try to put one on. Maybe hook up with a Miniature horse club in your area and see if you can all band together to host a show. I do know the ASPC ponies are getting more popular in your state so I keep thinking someone will put together an ASPC/AMHR show. Ill warn you though it is a ton of hard work. That could be why your other one cancelled as I do know some just get overwhelmed putting on a show every year and if no one will take it over they just stop.

 

[txminipinto]

Since the original topic was about AMHR I believe it is okay to post my complaint about them. I live in northern California and there are no AMHR shows anywhere near me. Most of my horses are double registared and I would love to participate in both. The reason an R horse seems to have no value out here is because there is nowhere to show them! If ASPC/AMHR is doing so well where are they? I think there was 1 R show within 200 miles of me last year, but it was cancelled this year. If I remember right, attendance was high. I am fairly new at all of this so I feel a little like an outsider. As an outsider it appears that it is an Eastcoast/westcoast thing. What can be done about this?

I will not get into the politics of how either restisrty is being run because I am new to both. I have not yet formed an opinion on the height thing. (but that would belong in a different thread)

I will continue to double register my horses for now because I want them to be valuable for anybody in any location who might want one.

Unfortunately, you're just in an area with few AMHR shows. Here in Area V, I can count 14 off the top of my head with 10 including shetlands.

 

[bingo]

Shelia your Area show is 150 miles away from you in Santa Rosa CA contact number is 620-896-7959. It is May 30th thru June 1st and would be a great place for you to go and meet other mini breeders in your area and discuss shows ect.

By the way you have quite the colorful herd !

 

[Laura]

HI Sheila

The best thing to do if there are no shows in your area is try to put one on. Maybe hook up with a Miniature horse club in your area and see if you can all band together to host a show. I do know the ASPC ponies are getting more popular in your state so I keep thinking someone will put together an ASPC/AMHR show. Ill warn you though it is a ton of hard work. That could be why your other one cancelled as I do know some just get overwhelmed putting on a show every year and if no one will take it over they just stop.

[SIZE=12pt]AMEN! Back in the day, I used to have to drive (from Arkansas) to Illinois or Texas to show. The NWA club began holding AMHR shows (then ASPC/AMHR) and other groups followed suit. We've personally put on two shows per year in 2006 and 2007, but we lost money and we just can't do it again this year. [/SIZE]

If you want to show, you may have to HOLD a show.

 

[shelia]

Thank you for your respones! Most everyone I know has double registered horses. I just have to find enough people who would be willing to step up to the plate! I can imagine the work could be overwhelming! maybe we are just a little lazy out here!LOL! I must be like a lot of other people out here. I want someone else to do the work and just go to the show and enjoy myself. It would be fun to become more involved in the process though.

I thought Santa Rosa was further away. Maybe I will go watch that one and see how it goes. I would really love seeing the shetlands too!

 

[Laura]

Thank you for your respones! Most everyone I know has double registered horses. I just have to find enough people who would be willing to step up to the plate! I can imagine the work could be overwhelming! maybe we are just a little lazy out here!LOL! I must be like a lot of other people out here. I want someone else to do the work and just go to the show and enjoy myself. It would be fun to become more involved in the process though.

I thought Santa Rosa was further away. Maybe I will go watch that one and see how it goes. I would really love seeing the shetlands too!

[SIZE=12pt]Is a lot of work, but not nearly as much as when we didn't use computers and had to do all of the show paperwork by hand. THAT was work~LOL It's fun and VERY rewarding, as long as you remember to put your exhibitors and their horses/ponies needs FIRST.[/SIZE]

 

[skylineminis]

Julie

You really need to look back at the history of ASPC/AMHR (which I believe is the correct way instead of shetland/amhr) I know you know that ASPC was first. Then ASPC created AMHR (the FIRST American Miniature Horse Registry) And yes the forefathers wanted to ensure that the Shetland Ponies (that were first) would not be forgotten so those bylaws were written in on requirements for holding directorship.

There have been many posts about ASPC/AMHR. But since your focus is AMHA you probably didnt even notice them.

Everyone has to stick with what they love and are loyal to. I made the decision 2 years ago to stop being an AMHA member. I almost changed my mind and went back but didnt. That is my right. Just as its your right not to be a member of ASPC/AMHR if you dont want to.

I really am starting to think we are our own worst enemy. Between posts tearing about both registries and posts about how bad the market is etc etc we could just do ourselves in.

I say we all get back to PROMOTING SMALL EQUINE!!!

I did just as you suggested. I don't belong to either registries any longer but I do promote having fun with miniatures. With the higher prices for belonging to the registries, the higher costs to register horses and the low selling prices for registered horses, I do none of the above. Unregistered horses sell for the same amount of money as registered horses and the paper doesn't make it a better horse. I'm running into more and more people feeling this way. You don't have to have a registered horse to show if that's what you want to do. More and more open shows are adding pony and mini classes and they are a fraction of the cost for a breed show.

I personally think both registries should re-examine their price structures because horses are a luxury item and people don't have to belong or even buy a horse. Seems like gas and food is more important than registering a horse that you can't recoupe the cost of registering it. JMHO.

I still own 16 or so minis and still love each and every one of them and try to do the best I can for them with the high prices of everything.

 

[skylineminis]

The difference here is at the Convention there was no discussion that changed ASPC/AMHR to the very core. There was no change in measuring rules which allowed horses up to 2 inches taller in some cases to be legally allowed into the registry.

The difference is there is no rule that has been changed that changes the entire integrity of the registry.

How can you even state these facts with a straight face??????

ASPC/AMHR closed the AMHR Registry without approval, and at an illegal meeting. Talk about changing the entire integrity or a registry!!!!! OH MY!!!!!!!!

You must be a newbee. There are a lot of things that I won't go into here, that has been done behind closed doors, but, since I'm no longer a member, I really can't say much anymore. These issues are another reason I quit both registries. Been a lot calmer in my day to day life, BUT, I really do/did care. Just couldn't do anything about what was going on to make a difference. I was one of those nasty backyard breeders with no money to make a difference (but won my share of ribbons and trophies with my backyard horses).

My only response is if the ASPC/AMHR is so bad and horrible, why is it that I'm seeing more and more (what used to be) AMHA only exhibitors/trainers showing at our shows? And why does our National show have 1,000+ more horses than AMHA? And let's leave the rules for qualifying out.

[/quote)

Because they are boycotting AMHA for one of the trainers getting caught cheating, or let's say, bending the rules a little.

They are also going to AMHR because the pickings were/are good and why not take both top honors in both registries? They get to charge twice the price to the owners and it makes a better living for the trainers.

Bottom line.

 

[Belinda]

How can you even state these facts with a straight face??????

ASPC/AMHR closed the AMHR Registry without approval, and at an illegal meeting. Talk about changing the entire integrity or a registry!!!!! OH MY!!!!!!!!

You must be a newbee. There are a lot of things that I won't go into here, that has been done behind closed doors, but, since I'm no longer a member, I really can't say much anymore. These issues are another reason I quit both registries. Been a lot calmer in my day to day life, BUT, I really do/did care. Just couldn't do anything about what was going on to make a difference. I was one of those nasty backyard breeders with no money to make a difference (but won my share of ribbons and trophies with my backyard horses).

Ok, now really there was NO Illegal meeting !!! It was done at a Board meeting .. with all Directors present.. There is no sense in stirring up old issues.. And yes ASPC / AMHR does run their Registry under different by-laws than AMHA ,,

The Officers are elected from the Board !! There are many organizations that conduct their Business this way .. How would Wal-Mart function if eveyone that owned stock voted on every thing they did ?? That would NOT work ,,

ASPC / AMHR has never tried to hide the fact that this is the way they conduct their business.. Heck it has just been the last few years , A person that did not own shetlands could sit on the board , but hey we are moving forward.. As someone pointed out , let us stop all this picking and fussing over things and all try to work together for the better of each assoc..

 

[skylineminis]

The big difference is the AMHR did not change their standard to allow larger horses in to their registry and

anger hundreds of members. The AMHR didn't say their non existent change was to stop measuring cheats

at their show.. when in fact it was to allow these cheats to continue to show legally.. with the new bottom of

the withers measuring rule..

In my opinion and observation over many, many years of measuring, measuring to the last hairs and the base of the withers is almost saying the same thing. Most manes go to the base of the withers.

To the person that over analized what the base of the withers (which vertebre)is, if you don't know where the base of the withers is, you need to look at the anotomy of a horse and learn the points of the horse. If you are learned enough to go to all the trouble of your over explination of the vertebre, you should at least know the points of a horse. I felt that was a real Childish response. Do you like talking down to people?

 

[skylineminis]

Facts that you failed to mention, are that AMHR has made great strides, and is now the leading Miniature Horse Association in the world. AMHR has a larger membership, they have more horses registered, their National show is the largest Miniature Horse Show in the World. Their financial position has constantly improved year after year.

This is a great point. Answer this. If ASPC/AMHR is so wealthy, why did they have to raise all fees to belong and register horses? How much money does a non profit need in the bank? They don't/didn't need the money. They did it because AMHA had been charging the prices for years so they upped their fees. That's really a stupid reason and it was detrimental to the betterment of the registries.

Money should be paid out to the club organizations for local "gelding incentitives" to help promote geldings, not just on the National level. Stuupid, stuupid, stupid!!!!!

How many horses show at the local shows than at Nationals? Not everyone can afford to go to Nationals nor do they want to. The local shows are the backbone of both organizations.

One thing both registries need to do is start enforcing the show ring rules, no matter who it is breaking them and not allow reprocussions to the persons protesting the cheating.

 

[bingo]

How can you even state these facts with a straight face??????

ASPC/AMHR closed the AMHR Registry without approval,

I am not a newbie but that has nothing to do with this. The bottom line is that closing the registry did not in any way change what the registry was founded on.

Some may not like it but that doesn't change the fact that it did not change any breed standard nor did it cause AMHR to need to change the marketing on the horses it has in the registry.

Prices of everything go up that is life again another fact we might not like but it is reality. I

I get that you are happy breeding and showing your unregistered minis and choose not to particpate in either registry and that is fine. It seems to work for you and you are happy.

 

[Mona]

To the person that over analized what the base of the withers (which vertebre)is, if you don't know where the base of the withers is, you need to look at the anotomy of a horse and learn the points of the horse. If you are learned enough to go to all the trouble of your over explination of the vertebre, you should at least know the points of a horse. I felt that was a real Childish response. Do you like talking down to people?

This "Base of the Withers" question HAS ACTUALLY been posed to various veterinarians since this mess all started, and if you research it on the internet, you too will find even those that spent the thousands of dollars and many years to get through vet school, STILL have varying opinions on what/where EXACTLY constitutes the base of the withers!! So no, it is NOT just Miniature Horse owners/breeders in general that cannot figure this out!

 

[R3]

To the person that over analized what the base of the withers (which vertebre)is, if you don't know where the base of the withers is, you need to look at the anotomy of a horse and learn the points of the horse. If you are learned enough to go to all the trouble of your over explination of the vertebre, you should at least know the points of a horse. I felt that was a real Childish response. Do you like talking down to people?

I’m not sure exactly how a discussion of the Base of the Withers (BOTW) got into this topic, but I would like to explain my comments (posted in a totally different topic). And, just for reference, I have known horse conformation for 40+ years, but I am not too proud to say that I have never, until this measuring proposal came up, been asked to define an EXACT spot that is the Base of the Withers. For me, the BOTW was always defined as the area where the withers transition into the back. So, I can not in all honesty say I know an EXACT, single defining point that is now going to be known as the BOTW.

I was not ‘talking’ down to people. I am trying to have a logical discussion, on the whole issue of the accuracy and dependability of using the BOTW as a measuring point. I was pointing out that the EXPERTS, not myself, do not agree on the EXACT anatomical description of the withers. The reason that I emphasize EXACT is because if we are going to measure, we have to measure at EXACTLY the same place on each horse.

The discussion at the AMHA Meeting said the BOTW was a better place to measure because it was ‘bone’. So, that opened the door for discussion of bones. I’m not the one who started the vertebrae dialogue, the people promoting the BOTW are the ones who did that. I just followed the direction they started, and am asking for more specifics…which bone did THEY mean? If it’s a bone, then they should be able to define which one.

There is only ONE Last Hair of the Mane (LHOTM). It is a single point. We don’t measure a ½ inch either side of the hair and say, that’s close enough. There is only one highest point of the withers, mostly referred to as the Top of the Withers (TOTW) in these topics. The highest point is the highest point. It is a single point. It isn’t a place ½ inch either side of that single point. From my knowledge, the BOTW is a general area where the withers transition to the back. It is NOT a single point. Until we can define a ‘single’ point that can be EXACTLY located on every horse, then the ‘base of the withers’ is not a valid measuring point.

If veterinarians don’t agree where the withers end, then how can I say I know? But, if someone can tell me the EXACT location, the single point that is the specific Base of the Withers, not just the general area, then I am willing to learn.

 

[MyBarakah]

Ok, Well....... I'm a member of both......but after showing in both (AMHA & AMHR)...... I DO like and support AMHA more......

After going to Nationals for the past 2 years..... I do have a problem with AMHR and would like to see the Amature classes changed........ and do NOT know who I would need to go about asking "why" they don't have it different and if it could ever be changed.........

WHere I show in the halter and like to show quite a few youngesters...... I like the AMHA MUCH better because there is a Amature Level 1 and Level 2 class. And in AMHR there's just ONE class......and especially when you get to Nationals...... when you are competing in a AMature halter class with (no-effense) with Erica & LTD minatures.........COME ON! Those judges know who those people are!

AND....... you also have the ponies & miniatures together and ALL size brackets in the amature classes! They NEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDD to break that up..... with having a Level 1 and Level 2 for the amature classes..... I think it would be MUCH more fair for showing!!!! Or at least have a height requirement or something to split that up a little bit more. That's what I see........

Also I really like that there's just 90 some classes with AMHA and where I have "A" miniatures..... I feel like my horses are A horses and not R horses......

That's just my opinion and that's what I would REALLY like to see change with AMHR.....

 

[HGFarm]

No registry is perfect- there are always bugs or issues in any corporation or system. I dont think I ever heard anyone say that AMHR walks on water... I am a member of both, but have certainly heard of many more 'issues' with unhappy members with AMHA rather than AMHR.

I am assuming the studbook online has been scrapped by AMHA as last time I signed in there, there was no icon for AMHA at all.

Not everyone is ever going to be totally pleased with rules in place.. you all know the old saying "You can please some of the people some of the time...." however AMHA has been under the gun lately based on their performance record with the members.... and there is no denying that.