Letter to the editor

[kaykay]

Years ago, I would visit with Audrey Barret (I don't know if I spelt her name right.) She was so nice and invited me to her home and gave me advise. The kids were little so I couldn't go, but oh, I wish I could have. One of the things I remember her telling me, was that if she wasn't satisfied with a pony she gave it away. She did not sell it to be a breeding animal she just gave it away. And did not incorporate it into her herd. Now that is breeding and that is culling. It might seem harsh, but that is how you improve.

So wish I had met her. I have always heard she was ruthless in her culling which is why her ponies were so wanted.

I LOVE Dunkin Doughnuts coffee! Yep we would for sure laugh until our stomach hurt. But you know first we would have to have a nice debate.

I agree it hurts that to hardship in my ASPC Shetland (that was never supposed to have to hardship) I have to jump through the hoops of having a judge and steward but an AMHA horse just goes right in. Heck I have my last AMHA mare still here. First mini I ever bought and she went over 34" Just because a horse is AMHA doesnt mean it will stay under.

I still feel the solution to all of this is to close the book and stop all hardshipping. Hmm wonder how that would go over? Surely if AMHA really closes (which I think is crazy for them) We will at least close our studbook to AMHA horses.

 

[LaVern]

I guess I have to learn to me more tactful as to how I say things. Someone called and said I should have said, it like this. From a business point, if you have a wonderful proven, product that everyone wants, why lower the price? Most business would have said, "Get em now before the price goes up".

I have a feeling that this post will bring in more registrations, as I think they said it is for just one year. So I'll say it," Get em now before the price goes up", unless the drop it next year.

 

[kaykay]

Keep in mind though in a down economy everyone is doing what they can to survive.

I think a lot of people do not realize how down registrations etc are at the home office. Hours of office personnel have been cut back, positions not filled etc due to the lack of work.

 

[LaVern]

kay kay. I didn't know that, but feared it was coming. And my pile of papers sitting in my file, don't help. But I guess it is the only way, I can make a stand. I don't think it is only the economy though, I think that so many AMHR breeders feel that they can't compete show wise or market wise unless they have the Shetland influence, so they have sort of given up.

I go back and forth about closing it up, though.

Maybe one thing that I think would help, would be to show the doubles ASPC/AMHR at Congress.

 

[Riverrose28]

kay kay. I didn't know that, but feared it was coming. And my pile of papers sitting in my file, don't help. But I guess it is the only way, I can make a stand. I don't think it is only the economy though, I think that so many AMHR breeders feel that they can't compete show wise or market wise unless they have the Shetland influence, so they have sort of given up.

I go back and forth about closing it up, though.

Maybe one thing that I think would help, would be to show the doubles ASPC/AMHR at Congress.

That's a great idea, and I've said that before, problem is AMHR is a pony registry and won't go for it. Just my opinion, and it has been discussed on this forum before.

You are right about those of us with straight minis making a decision on giving up, I've thought about it lots the last 10 years since we can't compete halter wise against the ASPC/AMHR horses, but havn't done it yet. I do have a plan put together if the economy gets better and my health holds up.

 

[Minimor]

I posted a little while back about how much the registration numbers are down...don't remember what they are offhand, but seems to me they're down 5000/year as compared to a few years ago...would have to go back & look up that post to have the exact numbers.

I would suspect (or at least hope) that much of that reduction is due to breeders realizing that they have been producing far more horses than the market can support and so have cut back on their numbers. If you're raising 50 foals per year and can sell only 20 of those, then you have 2 choices--keep the remaining 30 or give them away. The first choice means the breeder will have an awful lot of horses on his hands at the end of 5 years; the second choice must surely seem rather pointless after a time (what is the point of raising foals merely for the purpose of giving them away year after year?)--and so people cut back on the numbers of foals they are producing.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Either the plus side of fewer registrations is possibly more people are breeding less, which is not a bad thing. But the reality is probably people just aren't registring those foals. More people are reducing their herds, more people have stopped breeding, simply because they can't afford it. I know for myself I only have 3 geldings, I no longer breed and the most paperwork I did was send in 1 paper to get updated to pernament, recieved my membership and amateur card. Thats it. For 2012 I have nothing to pay for except membership and amateur card unless I buy another horse which probably won't happen for this year. I used to be a member of both AMHA and AMHR but paying for both membership fees and doing paperwork in both it gets too expensive so I chose AMHR cause thats what I show in. I still think the shows are strong which is a good thing. I think more people are choosing showing over breeding which is great.

2 of my geldings are AMHR only. Do I see them as any less because they aren't AMHA registered, no. One is a National Champion and multi National Top 10 and the other is a multi National Top 10 winner. My other gelding he was only AMHA registered when I bought him and I hardshipped him into AMHR back when it was $50 and I showed him in AMHR. Does that mean he has less value because he was hardshipped into AMHR. Lets see he is a Reserve National Champion, National Top 5, and Hall of Fame in Obstacle. No I don't think so. Instead of looking at what piece of paper they have we need to see what they can bring to the registry.

 

[tagalong]

I most certainly DO see the good in BOTH registries! I always have. You are basing that statement on my past involvement regarding CARE, but you obviously didn't know enough about me, my thoughts or preferences if you feel that I do not see the good in both registries! I have ALWAYS supported both. I have spent thousands of $$ in AMHA....far more than I ever spent in AMHR. If I was so dead set against them, as you seem to think I was/am, they certainly would not have gotten my money, and THAT you can be sure of

Mona - I was not referring to you or any specific person or topic - just the general AMHA vs. AMHR arguments and sneering that have gone on here. Those arguments are tiresome, pointless and go nowhere... and yet they persist.

It is often lame things like how some have crowed about there being more horses at Nationals than Worlds so that means AMHR is better than AMHA... well, it would make sense seeing as AMHR has both Under and Over divisions - thus more horses can enter.

It just gets really old.

 

[ahrobertspony]

Maybe one thing that I think would help, would be to show the doubles ASPC/AMHR at Congress.

Ummm ... this is already happening. There are already Miniature-registered ponies that go to both shows each year. After all, they do carry both sets of papers. As long as they meet the qualifications for showing, then it is within their right to do so.

Or, is this in terms of offering special classes? Sorry ... there is a whole list of pony classes already missing from the Congress and the schedule is tight. Long-time option pony classes need to go in at the pony championship first. If we are talking about special "mini" classes for double registered, then those need to happen at Mini Nationals.

Some of this conversation reminds me of old-time breeder conversations I've heard over the years debating the size of breeding programs. Some breeders take the position that they MUST have a very large breeding program in hopes of breeding one or two good ones a year. In that case, then there are often many, many other foals that have to be dealt with every year. Selling them off to friends, family or at sales with no papers is nothing new. However, it is laughable to anyone who takes the OTHER side of that debate about the size of the breeding program. There are some breeders out there who have raised champion after champion NEVER having raised more than 5 - 7 foals max any year and often raising even fewer than that. Seems like sticking w/ the excellent but small theory would be the way to go ... you'd never have to dump many unregistered animals ... you'd never have several have to save up to hardship if there wasn't a sale ... and you'd still have as many champions on the historical champions list as the more-is-better folks.

 

[Minimor]

Some breeders take the position that they MUST have a very large breeding program in hopes of breeding one or two good ones a year.

Do people really call that a breeding program?

 

[LaVern]

Okay, guess that was not a good idea. No room for more ponies at Congress.

Let's see raise only 3-4 all champion horses a year. Darn I'm trying, but it has taken a long time to figure out which lines give me those winners. Not a long time in the grand scope, but a long time for me. Most of the miniatures have not been around long enough to give me that constancy. Buckeroo better than most, I feel. I know that there are people that say that all of theirs are winners but it doesn't happen for me. Most could do okay if they only had to compete with a few horses, but not when they have to beat 40-50 of the top.

So we are supposed to cut back, and only have a few good ones, but that is not good for the office,they need money.

How about this. Now, that we have about broke the miniatures back,by breeding her too often and by ridding her too hard, lets give her a rest and come up with a new pony to ride. Lets take that Show Pony the one that you just have to have one parent be a Miniature or Shetland and let them be breedable and have classes at Nationals. They could be like the Half Bloods. Can you picture some of those little Arab Welsh Crosses, crossed with the B miniatures or Shetlands. Whoa.

I'm just being silly.

 

[disneyhorse]

La Vern... I strongly suggest you pay attention to the AMHR registry as a whole... If you check out the ASPC, aspr, nspr.... You will see that some of these "ideas" you have are actually already in progress. You CAN show ASPC/amhr horses at congress. There IS a registry for half blood mini or Shetland ponies.

 

[kaykay]

Dang it Renee just when we are getting a long for once you have to go and bring Shetlands into it LOL.

I think that so many AMHR breeders feel that they can't compete show wise or market wise unless they have the Shetland influence, so they have sort of given up.

I don't think that is a big reason of why transfers, registrations, memberships etc are down. I definitely think its the economy and member dissatisfaction. That dissatisfaction could be politics, prices, policies etc.

Any horse with AMHR papers is a miniature horse and entitled to compete. If you cannot beat what is winning you must breed something that can beat what is winning. Whether the background of that horse is Shetland, (wait they all have that dont they?) Falabella or AMHA, makes no difference. I have seen horses of all different "backgrounds" win.

As to Congress, well they did stick a classic under under class (some referred to this as the "mini" Congres class) in there but it didn't get a lot of entries. So I guess they can stick classes in there when they want to. (they being the Board)

 

[~Lisa~]

I see what you are trying to say Renee and have not read this whole thread yet but I can say believe me inspections do not mean much.

There are quite a few ASPC now AMHR registered horses that many would question are even close to 38 inches. And they were inspected

I have always felt that the influx of Shetlands (which by the way I own and love) would change AMHR and not for the better.

While this interest is a benefit to ASPC breeders at the moment and perhaps the immediate future I am sure it will take it's toll on them as well as AMHR breeders.

We have not been a registry to think solidly with plans for the future. And that does not seem to be changing much

Like it or not the facts are the facts and there is a reason why the Shetland market crashed and call them a mini and it flourished. Right or not, logical or not - based in fact or not.. the general public does not want Shetlands if they did that registry would be as big as AMHR and to become a registry of minis that everyone believes (again correctly or not- - realizing they are all one and the same or not) is Shetland will take its toll and I feel it has already started. Perhaps not in that small percentage that show but that small percentage has and will never be the bread and butter of ASPC/AMHR

 

[LaVern]

Oh Kay Kay, I didn't mean to bring the Shetlands into it, in a bad way. they have proven that they are what many people and the judges like. I'll keep plugging along, but many I know are not willing to flip flop and so have dropped out and just keep a few minis around for fun.

I love my new look, and pretty much will go with one line, but I don't think the judges will,be crazy about them. (Not for awhile anyway) And Disneyhorse I will try to become more informed before I shoot my mouth off.

This has been a hoot, but must go do my stud reports.

 

[Minimor]

Like it or not the facts are the facts and there is a reason why the Shetland market crashed and call them a mini and it flourished. Right or not, logical or not - based in fact or not.. the general public does not want Shetlands if they did that registry would be as big as AMHR and to become a registry of minis that everyone believes (again correctly or not- - realizing they are all one and the same or not) is Shetland will take its toll and I feel it has already started.

Have you considered this: That the decrease in registrations the past year or two is in no way related to the increased popularity of the Shetland/Mini? Perhaps it is just that the Miniature horse is a fad that has reached its zenith and is now starting to wane?
Yes, a fad. When the Shetland market crashed, the breeders renamed their ponies and marketed them as Miniature Horses. Those small ponies became an exotic animal--a novelty--a fad. A rose by any other name is still a rose....and Miniature horses were still ponies, even if it were taboo to actually say that. In the past 10 years Miniature horses have lost their status as an exotic animal, and they too have been dropping in price. Is that because of the sheer numbers of them that are available? (Probably that has a lot to do with it.) Is it now due to the poor economy? (No doubt that does also have a major effect.) Is it because they are becoming ponies again? (For some that is probably a factor.) Or is it just that the Miniature Horse was a fad that is fading away? (Good possibility of that too--mood rings, bell bottom pants and sideburns have all had their day...and then disappeared. Okay, so some of those are styles not really fads, but they work about the same!

Bell bottom pants did try a come back a little while back but they never really got hold the 2nd time around.

Here are the numbers I posted awhile back about declining registrations for AMHR:

Of real interest is comparing FY 2002 to FY 2011 - in FY 2002 there were 10311 new AMHR registrations and only 5663 in FY 2011. If my math is right that is a decrease of 45.1%.

ASPC registrations in FY 2011 - 1094. The ASPC is 20% of the registrations for, which is a vast improvement over 2002 when they were 11.4% of registrations. (Mind you, the ASPC numbers haven't really varied much in 20 years....I think I've been told that ASPC registrations were around 1000 per year 20 and 10 years ago, and they are still right around 1000--or almost 1100--in 2011.)

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I see what you are trying to say Renee and have not read this whole thread yet but I can say believe me inspections do not mean much.

There are quite a few ASPC now AMHR registered horses that many would question are even close to 38 inches. And they were inspected

I have always felt that the influx of Shetlands (which by the way I own and love) would change AMHR and not for the better.

While this interest is a benefit to ASPC breeders at the moment and perhaps the immediate future I am sure it will take it's toll on them as well as AMHR breeders.

We have not been a registry to think solidly with plans for the future. And that does not seem to be changing much

Like it or not the facts are the facts and there is a reason why the Shetland market crashed and call them a mini and it flourished. Right or not, logical or not - based in fact or not.. the general public does not want Shetlands if they did that registry would be as big as AMHR and to become a registry of minis that everyone believes (again correctly or not- - realizing they are all one and the same or not) is Shetland will take its toll and I feel it has already started. Perhaps not in that small percentage that show but that small percentage has and will never be the bread and butter of ASPC/AMHR

I agree with what you are saying Lisa. I feel like we have lost members because of such a high influence of the AMHR/ASPC ponies. Perhaps cutting the hardship fees in half is a way to try and bring back those members who went to AMHA because they were not liking the way AMHR was becoming.

I personally did not like it, but the quality of miniatures has improved so much for the past few years I think for the better. Until AMHR decides to close the registry we have to stop looking at AMHR as a breed registry and look at it like a height registry, and just like my comment before about accepting AMHA horses is just a piece of paper doesn't prove what that horse will bring to the registry can be said the same about the ASPC papers. I would love to see AMHR close its books and decide to become a breed, should it be done right now, no, lots more planning needs to happen and decide which route the AMHR horse is going. I'm still young so I hope to see it some day lol.

Some say how would those ASPC breeders would feel if they decide to open up their books and accept other shetlands. It just doesn't work that way, the ASPC is a recgonized breed. AMHR is just a height registry. They have worked towards closing it when they closed it to unregistered horses that aren't registered with AMHA, ASPC, and Fabella so new horses coming in is limited but I just don't see much difference between a height registry vs a color registry. Pinto accepts many horses that have the required pinto coloring and they even have breeding papers who aren't pinto.

 

[sdmini]

My issue with this is pretty simple. We have such a glut of AMHR horses currently how can cheapening the hardship fee be good for any body in the long run. I opposed the lesser gelding fee for the same reason. What drive is there to buy a already AMHR horse when you can get one into AMHR for so cheap? On the flip side from a AMHR business stand point it makes sense. All associations are seeing a drop in foals registered, every horse AMHR hardships not only has that $$ but the money from any foals registration as well. This is a money drive nothing else for AMHR, not saying it's a bad thing but let be real here. If AMHR wanted to give it's members a break because of the economy it would be better done in the form of $5 off foal registrations, $10 off renewals etc. I've discussed it with people that believe it was done to lure new members into AMHR. In the ten pages I have not read one post that said that they have never had anything to do with AMHR before but because of this incentive they now planned on registering their herd AMHR or start showing AMHR so I think that avenue is quite limited at best. For those select people that have not had anything to do with AMHR up until this point I don't think it's the hardship cost that has stopped them. It wasn't that long ago that for $60 you could get ANY horse a set of AMHR papers.

I recently hardshipped a horse into AMHR, she is five and lets give a conservative five foals from her in her life span, at $200 that is only that I expect a return of $40 more a foal. Considering how little $40 gets you with horses I have never thought that AMHR's hardship fee was outrageous. I have hardshipped into AMHA as well, at that same five foal figure I need a return of $120+ a foal and I still thought it was worth doing.

Individually, short term, yes I think it's great for the bottom line; AMHR business aspect yes again good idea; as an industry on whole no I don't think it's a good idea.

 

[kaykay]

Oh Kay Kay, I didn't mean to bring the Shetlands into it, in a bad way. they have proven that they are what many people and the judges like. I'll keep plugging along, but many I know are not willing to flip flop and so have dropped out and just keep a few minis around for fun.I love my new look, and pretty much will go with one line, but I don't think the judges will,be crazy about them. (Not for awhile anyway) And Disneyhorse I will try to become more informed before I shoot my mouth off.

This has been a hoot, but must go do my stud reports.

Okay now I am really confused I thought you bought some ASPC/AMHR horses?

I don't know it seems like an easy whipping post to blame all issues on Shetland ponies. For sure it keeps people from trying to see what other issues there are. And it keeps us all divided which I think is the way many Board members like it. We keep playing right into their hands.

Anyway, I have always been shocked that members do not try to get the AMHR book closed. Really I do mean shocked. All this talk of stopping the Shetlands etc etc. Close the book!

But you never see anyone try to get that accomplished? So strange to me. Honestly I thought about 5 years ago the AMHR book would be closed by now if for no other reason than to stop the Shetlands from hardshipping in.

 

[LaVern]

Oh, yeah I forgot about them. Ah- I sort of gave them away. They just didn't fit in. Very Very Very Good Show People Homes and with Papers.