LGD question

[Dona]

I got a new Pyrenees puppy a few months ago. Wanted to get another one before our old one, Panda, died. He is 9 years old now & still doing well, but really slowing down.

"Barney"....who is 6 months old....has been getting along with the horses just great. But I recently had a foal, and Barney seems to think the foal is his new plaything & likes to chase. I don't believe he wants to hurt it....just enjoys "playing". I don't see the humor in it...and neither does the mother!

I never had this problem with Panda. Is this something that I should worry about....will he eventually calm down when the "newness" of the baby wears off? I've been keeping him separated from the mare & foal for now, as I don't want to take any chances....AND don't want him to get the idea that this is acceptable behavior!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Dona,

Sorry you're dealing with this. I don't have the answer for you but I can tell you that my pyr chased the horses when she was a puppy and I couldn't break her of it. As an adult (almost 3 yrs now) she still can be too rough for my liking with the horses. I go back and forth ALL the time about whether or not it's better to have a LGD versus not having one. We had two pyrs at one time and the other one never did fit into our farm so she is no longer with us.

Also, both of mine have been food agressive so we have to seperate them when feeding the horses grain. A real PITA!

Good luck. I hope yours settles down!

 

[Mona]

Congratulations on your new foal Dona. I hope you can get this problem worked out...unfortunately, this same thing happened to me last year with our last Boxer, "Shimmer" who was a sweet, loving girl, but like your Barney, she chased the foals....not to harm, but to play. I was not able to break her of it, short of tieing her up all the time, and I wasn;t going to do that. My concern was that at some point, I was worried the play/harm might cross the line, and I just couldn't take the chance. Since your boy is a natural Guardian breed, I hope you are able to break him of it. I am surprised Panda has not shown him that it is NOT permissable! Good Luck Dona...hope you can get some helful replies. You might also try contacting some breeders of working Pyrs to see if they can help.

 

[Tatonkas Dream]

I am not sure how much help I can be as most of the ones I fostered seemed more timid than chasing etc but I've fostered numerous pyrs in the hopes of finding a keeper and to date do not have a LSG dog.

Not sure how you feel about it but might be able to work with a shock collar - with his age and breed wanting to guard/please you've got a good chance of correcting the behavior.

Or poss putting him on a lunge line and correcting that way and as Mona said I too am surprised Panda isn't telling him to knock it off.

Theres nothing like another pyr to teach the younger ones - watching the 'pack' at the president of the rescue groups house is really neat.

Good luck - I hope you can break him of the habit.

 

[HGFarm]

Do NOT let your dog chase your foals, because it can easily cross the line. I have a friend who this just happened to! The chase became chase and grab to play and then grab became crunch and kill!! I have also known other people through the years that have had the same problem with their own, or with neighbors dogs.

I hope you can seriously discourage your dog from doing this now, before it becomes a habit. This is not a good thing and pups need to learn.

 

[Magic]

My Anatolian Shepherd liked to play with the foals too, when she was younger, generally the yearlings and two year olds. Even though what she was doing was innocent and cute (running along with the horses, or mutually playing) I scolded her each time she did so. She listens extremely well and would quit immediately. I didn't want that type of behavior to escalate. Now when a horse wants to play with her, she'll accept grooming, etc, but won't reciprocate. The Pyr/Anatolian cross that I got as a two year old I didn't have to deal with anything like that, in fact he was so timid around the horses it was more of a challenge to get him to realize that they weren't out to get him. Now he'll lie asleep out in the pasture or dry lot with even the active yearlings so he's come a long way.

In all of my research on LGD's, dogs under a year and a half are generally not reliable enough to be guarding, especially when there are foals, lambs, etc. There will be a "honeymoon" phase where all is wonderful, but the dog enters a teenage period where it may test out what it can do, and get a little wild. These dogs have the instincts bred into them for hundreds and hundreds of years, but they still aren't born knowing what you want them to do, what is acceptable and what is not.

I think it's best that you keep him separated from the foal and mare while he's not being supervised, and when you are out there with him, put a lead on him and correct him for any kind of undue interest in the foal (lunging, play-bowing, barking, etc). Keep doing that until you can have him unleashed during supervised outings.

I know of people who have had LGD's that gnawed on lambs during puppyhood and young adulthood, but with patience and proper guidance, they went on to become very reliable guardian dogs. Not every LGD will be suitable for livestock guarding, but properly socialized and trained dogs have an excellent chance of doing just fine. Good luck!

Oh, I want to add that generally when people are training the youngsters, they keep them in with larger mature animals that aren't as likely to run as foals, etc. First the pups are kept in a pen NEXT TO the stock, for all to get used to each other. Then when the pup is becoming reliable, they are kept with a small group of adult animals. Only when they are mature and have been fully trained are they allowed out with young stock. I hope this helps!

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

I had 2 Great Pyrs since they were pups. They never bothered the horses, but they had eachother to play with. Would another dog be in the cards for you? My male would be the aggressor, while the female stayed back with the horses.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have never had a LSGD, and I am afraid I know little about working Pyreneans, they do not exist here and the ones I come across are.....hmm, how to put this politely??...oh the heck with it, they are useless!!! Neither use nor ornament, sorry to say, and expensive to keep too.

I do, however have Dobes, who could obviously do serious damage had they a mind to.

I also have a gelding who is LETHAL to dogs that give him no respect, and two stallions that have a low tolerance of dogs altogether.

When I first got Sam, as an adult, he actually attacked one of the stallions I was bringing up into the yard and I had to let the horse go in order to sort the dog out.

Like you, I was then in two minds as to whether to carry on, after all my first responsibility was to the horses, not the dog I had only just rehomed.

Long story short, Carlos and Bertie between them have instilled a marked amount of respect into young Sam, and in return they now do not attack him on sight when he crosses their field to bark fiercely at strangers...the horses seem to have worked out that he is doing his job when he is barking, and he would never, ever dream of barking at them, he learned that the hard way.

What I would suggest is that you beg or borrow an animal like this, one that will give your pup (for he is still very much a puppy) a good chasing, and maybe even a bite and a kick or two (Sam got both) and instill a large amount of respect in his doggy brain, for small equines.

Neither the stallions nor the gelding are nasty with dogs as a whole, they just will not tolerate bad manners, so any stray dog getting in my field would have a nasty shock, but my own dogs, wandering through, or running to bark, are ignored now.

The shock collar would work only if you were prepared to hide out of sight and give him a hefty jolt, quite a few times, but if you then expect him to guard these animals, which will entail him getting close to them on many occasions, I am not sure it is the way to go.

I do not think there is a short answer to this one, I have a feeling it may well be that this pup is not cut out for this kind of work, the best dogs do seem to do it instinctively and he does appear to have got his wires crossed, he may grow out of it with help, he may not.

The problem is you have already invested nine months of keep into the dog, and if he "fails" after another nine months you have then to start all over, by which time your old dog may well not be around.......This is a hard one, I think you need to sit down and think hard about your options, here.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but as I said, I don't think there is a quick fix to the problem.

 

[Magic]

Ok, he's a PUPPY.

Puppies want to play. It is up to their people to teach them what is acceptable play and what is not. Jane, you admit that you have no LGD experience; I do, and my dogs have been worth their weight in gold.

But they needed guidance, just like ANY dog does, no matter what the breed or what they are supposed to do.

Another dog is not the solution, IMO. This puppy already has Panda (the older LGD.) What this pup needs is some training, and mostly, time to grow up. None of the LGD owners I know (and I belong to a LGD chat group) allows young puppies out with young stock without guidance. It takes time, these dogs aren't machines.

 

[Dona]

OK....you guys have convinced me. I will only allow Barney out with the mature horses....who will NOT take any "horseplay" from him at all!

I can't put him out in the big pasture with Panda yet....as Barney is still small (only about 1/3 the size of Panda) and there are places where Barney can get under the fence if he really tried. He is young, and I know if he got out, he would run.

I put Barney out with the mare & foal for a little while today to watch. Barney didn't offer to chase at all this time. In fact, he seemed bored. So, I do think it was just the "newness" of the foal (Oh boy! A new toy to play with!) BUT....It's not worth taking the chance...and I really do think it would be a good idea to be "put in his place" a few times with the older ones. I know he needs training & guidance for at least a year or two.

Panda spoiled me. He was so "easy" and knew exactly what he was supposed to do at a very young age. He has never given me a moments concern.

 

[mizbeth]

I always watch any type of dogs around my horses. The only ones I do not watch closely are the very small ones. My horses don't like them.

It just does not take much for a dog even in play to injure a small horse especially a foal even if they only knock them down.

Good luck! Puppies are a lot of work.

 

[uwharrie]

LGD are not reliable guardians till they are around 2 yrs. When we had goats we got a Maremma pup. She was fine with the adults as they would not tolerate any hyjinx from her. however I learned the hard way that pups are not safe around the babies/ She killed a doeling simply by playing too rough with it.( she would never hurt one on purpose) We did train her out of it but it takes time and work. We placed a dog kennel in the goat pasture and she stayed in that when we could not watch her. When we were out she was out with the goats on a long line. If she even looked like she was going to chase she would be strongly repremanded.

We did this till she was over a year old and by the time she was 18 months she was on her way to being "safe" to be left out. Regretably we lost her to an autoimune issue at about 18 months

 

[Magic]

I think it really depends on each individual dog and it's personality.

My Anatolian was really good with the horses at a very young age. She respects the adults, so when the foals were born when she was a puppy, she just watched them, and I was out with her every minute. At that age it was more me protecting HER from the horses, than vice versa.

The next year when she was a year old and the new foals were out at pasture, she followed them but very much respects the adults so kept her distance until the mares allowed her to get close. Any indication that she wanted to play with them was nixed by me telling her "no". Even from a great distance she listens very well to me. I also stalled the mares and foals at night and so Tanna didn't have access to them while unsupervised. She learned very quickly.

It also helps that she had a "mentor" as a youngster; my Great Dane Hayley is really great with the horses and she taught Tanna from the beginning how to act:

I don't talk a lot about our Great Pyrenees/Anatolian cross, mainly because I got him as a two year old so his training was pretty much complete when we got him. He's a very good boy. Tanna weighs about 100 pounds, and Bandit is about 150 pounds. This pic is from two years ago when we had a LOT of snow, and our five feet high fences were getting a little short in the snow.

We live about a quarter of a mile from the base of mountains that are a National Wilderness Area. There are cougar up there (that come down from time to time), and a few wolves that have made their way down from Yellowstone, along with some smaller predators. They don't come HERE though, because my dogs are diligent in keeping anything that doesn't "belong" away. That also goes for the deer and wild turkeys, but that's fine with me.

I can sleep at night because I know my dogs are on the job.