Looks like the Economic Bail Out has been voted DOWN

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]Global banks expect to fall under U. S. bailout umbrella

By Nelson D. Schwartz and Carter Dougherty

PARIS: After initial signs they might be left out in the cold, most European and international banks holding substantial amounts of troubled U.S. mortgage debt now expect to be eligible for the $700 billion bailout plan ironed out in Washington over the weekend.

The initial draft released Saturday limited participation to U.S. banks, but after a round of lobbying and intense questions from bankers around the world, a subsequent version on Sunday promised it would also include institutions with substantial operations in the United States.

While that is sure to please foreign bankers and reassure global markets, it also is expected to stoke some opposition among lawmakers in Congress who are already skeptical of what could ultimately turn out to be a trillion-dollar bailout for Wall Street.

If the plan passes Congress and is signed into law, the benefits would be substantial for some of the largest European banks.

UBS, the Swiss giant, has been among the hardest-hit institutions in the world; both its chairman and chief executive left amid more than $40 billion in write-downs. Even so, it still retains roughly $20 billion more in potential exposure to the troubled U.S. housing market.

On Sunday, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson Jr. opened the door to foreign bank participation, but he hinted that other countries might have to help shoulder part of the burden for their own banks in what was likely to be the biggest government bailout ever.

"It's a distinction without a difference whether it's a foreign or a U.S. one," he said during an interview on the Fox News television channel. "Our system's a global one, and I also am going to be pressing colleagues around the world to design similar systems for their banks."

The Bush administration is also making its own demands on foreign governments. The request will be discussed during a conference call among Group of Seven finance ministries scheduled for Sunday evening Washington time, a European official said.

"We have a global financial system and we are talking very aggressively with other countries around the world, and encouraging them to do similar things, and I believe a number of them will," Paulson said.

But he may get a lukewarm reaction at best from Europe, where major governments have struggled to get budget deficits under control in the past few years. The German government, for example, has discouraged talk of a stimulus package, and British officials said Sunday that they were not working on a U.S.-style plan.

Gaining access to the bailout for foreign financial institutions with banking operations in the United States was a top priority for Europeans, according to people in industry and government.

They argued that the reputation of Wall Street and the U.S. government would suffer immensely if properly licensed foreign banks in the United States were shut out of the system.

"Who would open a bank again in the United States?" one executive of a major European bank said.

Despite the varying versions of the proposal circulating in Washington, U.S. officials reassured their European counterparts that the umbrella would be broad.

But like many others involved in resolving the crisis, they are pressing to see an updated plan in writing, especially since the definitions of what is a European or American bank have blurred in recent years with the growth of global giants like HSBC, Barclays and Deutsche Bank.

Deutsche Bank, for example, became a major player in the United States with its acquisition of Bankers Trust in 2001. It has written down more than $11 billion in investments linked to the subprime crisis.

Barclays, meanwhile, is on course to buy a significant portion of the North American operations of Lehman Brothers, the 158-year firm whose bankruptcy a week ago helped set off the global financial panic that forced Washington to act.

Officials at several major European banks declined to comment for the record on how they would fare under the bailout package, saying they still needed time to study the proposal.

The plan appears to offer the biggest benefits for the European banks that both have licensed operations in the United States, and have incurred major losses from mortgage-linked securities.

"These are Americans who work in New York," said the executive, who requested anonymity because the U.S. plan is still in flux. "And they are working for a bank that was incorporated in the United States."

If a battle does develop in Congress over foreign participation, UBS, among others, is poised to make just these arguments. Officials at UBS, based in Zurich, point out that the bank employs more than 30,000 Americans, is listed on the New York Stock Exchange and owns two broker-dealers registered under U.S. laws, UBS Securities and UBS Financial Services, better known to Americans as the former Paine Webber unit.
 
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Europe is already feeling the effect, and just wait till the Asian markets open tomorrow. It won't be pretty. For those of you who said that we in other countries are not touched by your politics perhaps NOW you will understand better that our economies are alll tied at the hip!!!! It is naive to think any other way and if you still think it then take a good look in the next couple of days at the international news!!! The world truly is a small place and when something of this magnitude happens in one country you can bet your bootie the country where it happens is not the only one who will suffer.
I agree, it is a matter of a few days only but the bill will pass with some changes, not doing it would be economical suicide.
Danielle, I hope you DO know (and I think you do) that not all Americans are so elitist not to consider the impact we have on other countries, and vice versa. I've been wanting to say that. I think other countries have good reason to be concerned with who becomes president in the US. Just like we as a country tend to become awfully concerned as to who gets into power in other countries.

Kind of off topic, but kind of not, as I'm sure for a lot of folks this comes down to this being just one parties fault, which is pretty ridiculous.
 
Europe is already feeling the effect, and just wait till the Asian markets open tomorrow. It won't be pretty. For those of you who said that we in other countries are not touched by your politics perhaps NOW you will understand better that our economies are alll tied at the hip!!!! It is naive to think any other way and if you still think it then take a good look in the next couple of days at the international news!!! The world truly is a small place and when something of this magnitude happens in one country you can bet your bootie the country where it happens is not the only one who will suffer.
I agree, it is a matter of a few days only but the bill will pass with some changes, not doing it would be economical suicide.
Danielle, I hope you DO know (and I think you do) that not all Americans are so elitist not to consider the impact we have on other countries, and vice versa. I've been wanting to say that. I think other countries have good reason to be concerned with who becomes president in the US. Just like we as a country tend to become awfully concerned as to who gets into power in other countries.

Kind of off topic, but kind of not, as I'm sure for a lot of folks this comes down to this being just one parties fault, which is pretty ridiculous.
I know that the majority of Americans are well versed in international politics and know that this will impact more than just Americans and the U.S. economy. In a way we are all in this together but not to the extent of course of you in the U.S. who would have had to have your tax $$ used for the bailout. As I said before in anothe thread, I understand the anger from the American public with the Bill and to know that those that caused it, those that needed bailing out, would profit from this. It's almost like being slapped in the face and then told to turn the cheek so you can get slapped again. I listened to Lou Dobb tonight on CNN and he kept repeating that this was a victory for the American public and in a way he is of course correct but what he failed to say on one hand it is a victory on the other hand it could be a defeat. Suzie Ormond, I think that is her name, is on CNN right now with Larry King live and she stated it as well. People don't realize but everyone will be affected by this, not just those with mutual funds, 401ks or stocks. There will be more job loses, people will continue to lose their homes, people who have credit cards she said will find that their credit limit has been dropped. She gave the example of someone who has $3,000 charged on their card and have a limit of $5,000. She said because of the freeze on credit, their credit max will be dropped to $3,000 from $5,000 and on she went. The way I see it is a no win situation either way but for some to come on here and say it doesn't or won't affect them are living in lala land, unless they have no mutual funds, don't work, dont' have any credit cards, own their homes and have no mortgages, etc. etc.

Suzie Ormond said for those of you in the U.S. the first thing you should be doing it calling your bank to insure that the money you have in your savings account and your chequing accounts are insured should the bank fail.
 
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If they would take ALL of the pork out of the bill and let it stand on JUST what is needed to get things back on an even keel, I would be one of those calling or e-mailing my senators and congressman and telling them to support it.

I for one am very tired of every peice of legislature being presented getting loaded down with a bunch of garbage. Our taxes wouldn't be nearly as high as they are.

As I said in another thread-- Make the people who have gotten their pockets lined from Fanny and Freddy GIVE IT BACK!! ALL OF IT not just some of it!!
 
For those of you who said that we in other countries are not touched by your politics perhaps NOW you will understand better that our economies are alll tied at the hip!!!!
AGAIN for the 5th time Dannielle, no one said that our politics do not have an effect on other countries, what we did say is that we do not have to consider your opinion when we go into the voting booth or when we are discussing politics...I am voting for myself and what I feel is best for my country, not what is best for Canada. I'm sure when you go to vote, you do not think, "hhhmmmm, I wonder what will be best for the U.S?, I think that's how I'll vote today!"

I vote based on what I feel is best for the people of MY Country, I would hope you do the same.

Back to the issue at hand....to put it normal words....this bill was a bandaid with lots of negatives, but a bandaid none the less. If absolutely nothing is done, this country is going to bleed to death!

For those who say McCain knows nothing about economics...he predicted this about 3 years ago, but no one would listen then.
 
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OK Sonya think about this... China and Japan own a lot of USA debt... Now say to save their economy they want to sell this.. Who has

enough money to buy this debt ....Arab states.. thats who... Now are you so eager to say we should all do what is best for our

own country...
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http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.html
 
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They certainly can't blame the Republicans because 94 Democrats voted Nay and they could have passed it on their own. So it may not be the thing to do. I don't know what to say about it.
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Umm...67% of house republicans voted NAY...why should the dem's have carried it alone when it's a republican proposal? They gave the bill a great chance, but 137 republican members voted against it. Maybe it's not the right bill. If that's the case, I hope they get their (ALL of them) buns into gear and get it worked out.
 
OK Sonya think about this... China and Japan own a lot of USA debt... Now say to save their economy they want to sell this.. Who has enough money to buy this debt ....Arab states.. thats who... Now are you so eager to say we should all do what is best for our

own country...
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I agree that our current lack of respect for other countries if not stopped will only further endanger our country along with others. This short sightedness needs to stop .
 
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Now are you so eager to say we should all do what is best for our own country...
In my opinion....something needs to be done. This bill was certainly not the best answer to what's going on, and hopefully what they come up with next, will be much better. But to do absolutely nothing, is going to be devestating....very possibly....DEPRESSION. People are already panicking...pulling their cash out of banks, that is just going to hurt more.

If I knew the exact answer, I suppose I wouldn't be sitting here typing, I'd be in Washington. Hopefully some one in Washington can come up with a fix. But to do nothing is going to make this economy worse for many many many years to come...and probably yours too!

and to clarify...what I believe is best for the U.S., just happens to be what I feel would be best for the rest of the world as well.
 
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Now are you so eager to say we should all do what is best for our own country...
In my opinion....something needs to be done. This bill was certainly not the best answer to what's going on, and hopefully what they come up with next, will be much better. But to do absolutely nothing, is going to be devestating....very possibly....DEPRESSION. People are already panicking...pulling their cash out of banks, that is just going to hurt more.
I totally agree and think this is something that we can all agree on. I have faith that they will come up with a new plan that is at least a better answer then the previous one.
 
Now are you so eager to say we should all do what is best for our own country...
In my opinion....something needs to be done. This bill was certainly not the best answer to what's going on, and hopefully what they come up with next, will be much better. But to do absolutely nothing, is going to be devestating....very possibly....DEPRESSION. People are already panicking...pulling their cash out of banks, that is just going to hurt more.
I totally agree and think this is something that we can all agree on. I have faith that they will come up with a new plan that is at least a better answer then the previous one.
Better? Better for whom ??

I bet the next plan is worse for the average joe
 
AGAIN for the 5th time Dannielle, no one said that our politics do not have an effect on other countries, what we did say is that we do not have to consider your opinion when we go into the voting booth or when we are discussing politics...I am voting for myself and what I feel is best for my country, not what is best for Canada. I'm sure when you go to vote, you do not think, "hhhmmmm, I wonder what will be best for the U.S?, I think that's how I'll vote today!"
Sonya, I am not going to get into a p*ssing match but it was indeed said by a member here in another thread (the one that was locked and deleted I believe and other individuals from other countries (Australia, New Zealand and a member from Ireland) posted in that thread not agreeing with that individual's comments. Your comment about me trying to persuade people to vote one way or the other is over the top and not worthy of me even trying to explain. If that is what you think I am trying to do, that is your right. Perhaps if you think that you should use the ignore button and put my name in that feature. Enough silliness.

Now back to what this thread is about. I called our investment manager last night and he said that we did lose quite a bit in our mutual funds. I have not moved all of it but a good portion out of mutual funds until we know what if any Bill will be past and until the markets stabilize themselves. I have also told our portfolio manager that we will not be continuing to contribute $$ on a monthly basis to mutual funds but will shift the money into GICs, Bonds and we are thinking of purchasing offshore land/property for our retirement, someplace warm :), lol, like one of the islands.

Did anyone else see the segment on Larry King Live with Suzie Ormond? It was quite good and I found what she said to make alot of sense in this unstable economic climate we find ourselves in.
 
Editor’s Note: Suze Orman will be on AC360° tonight at 10pm ET to discuss how to keep your money safe. Check out her new partnership with the FDIC at myFDICinsurance.gov. On that site you can use her calculator to make sure the money you put in the bank is safe, and backed by the FDIC. Suze was interviewed on CNN earlier today. Here’s what she had to say:
Suze Orman

Personal Finance Expert

Q: How worried should people be right now? Not only about stocks but mutual funds, portfolios, 401(k)s, jobs?

They should be worried about everything. And they should be so worried, not that we should start a panic, that they really start to truthfully change their behaviors.

They have to realize that nobody is joking here. They can’t continue to go out to eat, charge it on a credit card and then just pay the minimum at the end of the month. They have got to go into a different type of financial mentality,

I have to tell you, I don’t think that has sunk into them yet. so a few more days like this a few more things coming down the pike, they may go ‘oh, my God, we may be in serious trouble here.’

Let’s start with bank accounts. If you are within the FDIC limits of a bank account, if you happen to be at a credit union, if you’re within the limits of the NCUA (National Credit Union Administration), you have to understand your money is absolutely safe and sound. The $100,000 per account.

Here’s what everybody needs to do, especially with FDIC…

Go to myFDICinsurance.gov, use the calculator program they have, so you know… without a shadow of a doubt… that your money is insured. You cannot take somebody else’s word for it. You need to worry. So just take a few steps to make sure that your money is in institutions that are insured; you are within the insured limits and that that money is safe and sound if you are, this doesn’t matter to you in that way. If your bank fails, the FDIC will step in. They have the money. They’ll be there for you.

As for portfolios, mutual funds, bonds and such … there you’re seeing a situation where we’re going down, down and down. If you have 10, 20, 30 years until you need the money and you invest in good quality stocks, mutual funds, exchange traded funds, you have to continue to invest. You have to continue every single month going into the investments that you’re in if they’re good.

However, if you are older, and counting on this money (you need this money for retirement) that is money that never should have been in the stock market to begin with.

Your rule of thumb is money that you need within ten years is not money that belongs in the stock market because of the deterioration we have seen and will continue to see if they do not get their act together.

If you think this day was bad, what you may see if these people, the administration, do not get their act together so to speak… you could see another 2,000, 2500 points (lost).

Q: Should you move your money to T-Bills?

Not now if have you time on your side. This is when you continue to invest. However, if you need this money, this is all the money that you have you are counting on it next year to do something with, yes, you have to come out at this point in time because you can’t continue to wait anymore. You never should have been in to begin with.

Some people see a deep recession coming that could last a year, maybe two years. As bad as the markets might be right now, a year from now they could be worse. Why not take that money and move it to T-bills right now and a year from now go back and start investing? Because it is impossible to time the market.

If you had invested the day before September 11th, if you invested the day before in 1987, the market went down 22%, you would have been up considerably ten years later. Even if you invested right before those big drops. Don’t try to time the market. Just be consistent with your investing. For those of you again, who are afraid, you might want to the transfer your money, however, that’s in stocks that keep going down that aren’t paying you a dividend and possibly go into individual good quality stocks or exchange-traded funds that do pay you a dividend. You can get 4, 5, 6% with some secure stocks, some secure exchange traded funds so at least you’re being paid to wait. But you can’t time the market. You’ll never win at that game.

So when will the market and the economy turn around? How long is this down cycle going to last? Probably two, three, four years. I don’t want to say what I’m about to say. I don’t think you’re going to see a lot of light at the end of the tunnel until about the year 2015.

We have a number of years to go. However, somebody’s got to be able to make a decision and since everybody can tell that will people in charge here can’t make decisions for you, you’ve got to make decisions for yourself. You’ve got to stop charging things on your credit card. You’ve got to stop spending money on things you don’t need. You know? you’ve got to understand this is very serious, people. You’ve got to start acting like it’s serious because it is. But if people are still investing in their 401(k)s, why not change those investments as opposed to mutual funds and bonds or stocks or whatever and just have the money invested in t-bills or money market accounts?

Because as we saw a little bit ago when they did certain things, you saw in June, you saw certain bank stocks rally 30% 40% and so as the markets go down, as you continue to invest dollars in things that are less expensive, you buy more shares. The more shares you have in the long run, the more money you make when everything turns around.

So if you aren’t putting your money in today while the prices are getting cheaper and cheaper every month not all at once but every month as long as you have 10, 20, 30 years or longer, you won’t be able to take advantage of accumulating more shares. You’ll lose in the long run. So while it sounds like, it’ll keep my money safe and sound and not worry about it, I don’t know. There are some great buys out there. There’s great things to be doing with your money as long as have you time on your side.

Everything’s on sale right now. That’s what the government’s doing. They are buying everything that’s at a tremendous sale and bailing out anybody, they are investing in assets that are so cheap right now i wish we could invest in those. But the average person watching, they don’t know about these so-called bargains out there. I agree. There are a lot of the bargains out there.

You have to be a sophisticated investor to know what’s going on. That’s why you have to have a little trust here right now that if we do this investment plan and they have to stop calling it a bailout plan, if they are allowed to do this plan, eventually you’re going to see the mortgages will get paid off. You’ll have some ownership in it.

The taxpayers will be paid back and in the long run, we should be okay. If we continue to let the markets freeze, these credit markets it is possible one day you go to your ATM, and nothing’s going to come out. You can use your credit card and not going to be able to use it.

Q: Do you think the House should have passed the bailout bill?

You bet I do.
 
I so hope this is taken care of this week and our congress gets back to doing their jobs. The speaker, Pelosi, needs to quit playing election games. Would you like to know what she makes for a living? Pelosi You can also check out what the other representatives, senators etc. make or should I say what we pay them. You can also check to see what it cost us to fly them to different engagements they had. I found it very interesting.

If you have an FDIC bank, which I think they all are, your money in the bank is insured.

Edited to add: You can also see by their trips who has been going over seas. Great looking for foreign matters in a time of election.

Edited again to add: Look at who ABC sponsors. ABC
 
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They certainly can't blame the Republicans because 94 Democrats voted Nay and they could have passed it on their own. So it may not be the thing to do. I don't know what to say about it.
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Umm...67% of house republicans voted NAY...why should the dem's have carried it alone when it's a republican proposal? They gave the bill a great chance, but 137 republican members voted against it. Maybe it's not the right bill. If that's the case, I hope they get their (ALL of them) buns into gear and get it worked out.

But the Dems could have voted this through ALL BY THEMSELVES. Was it really all Rep proposal? You know it wasn't. But the Reps did make the Dems take out their ACORN attatchment. I did like the no more golden parachute thing. There are just too many things attatched to it and I think they are all responsible. The reason the Dems voted no is because then they can say "Oh I had nothing to do with this". Maybe the Reps too but it is not what I heard. It would have gone IF Pelosi had kept her mouth shut. She ruined it all. But like I said I don't know what is the right thing to do. I too feel like you do. All get their buns in gear and get something worked out. Stop bickering and pointing fingers. GET IT DONE.
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I heard someone, somewhere, talking about why no one should be supporting this bailout. The key points were that the government bailing out or owning any portion of the banks is communism, and that's just peachy, but if you really believe in capitalism you need to let this sort itself out. People will lose money, businesses will fail, things are going to be bad for a while. But it will sort itself out and more quickly than if we as a nation take on the massive debt of this bailout plan.

I think the American public (and the world) is in a bad place no matter what we do.
 
I heard someone, somewhere, talking about why no one should be supporting this bailout. The key points were that the government bailing out or owning any portion of the banks is communism, and that's just peachy, but if you really believe in capitalism you need to let this sort itself out. People will lose money, businesses will fail, things are going to be bad for a while. But it will sort itself out and more quickly than if we as a nation take on the massive debt of this bailout plan.
That is how I feel also. I'm afraid they are just going to make a bigger mess further down the line.
 
I opened my computer this AM to a heading under the MSN Money section that said "WAMU CEO gets $19 million for three weeks", or words to that effect. So, I went and read the article, along with a couple of related ones...

This kind of thing is an OBSCENITY(sort of like paying 'sports stars' the OBSCENE amounts they often get)...on top of that was the contention that the 'provisions' to limit CEO payouts in the 'bailout' are so flawed that they will be virtually meaningless, full of loopholes that can and will be exploited...but which are there essentially to 'look good' to us ignorant everyday taxpayers! Gee, what a surprise(heavy sarcasm INTENDED...) Is it any wonder that Americans are angry?

I am one who thinks this situation should be left alone to sort itself out-in other words, there should NOT be a bailout.It is PAST time that a hard lesson was learned, IMO...because I believe that so many have been operating their affairs in a fiscally irresponsible manner! Yes, they were 'invited' to do so, by irresponsible lenders, painting a picture of ever-escalating 'values' in housing, and encouraging irresponsible spending(want something? Add it onto the credit card; worry about how you'll pay for it 'later')...well, 'later' has arrived! But, the lenders were lending to adults, who are supposed to be able to make, and be responsible for, their decisions.

I don't owe ANYONE.My place is paid for; I looked ahead and knew that I would NOT have the retirement income to manage a mortgage payment, or any other sizeable monthly payment. I have never been in the stock market; I do not have the knowledge, nor have I EVER felt I could risk losing ANY of the principal--two reasons you are always advised NOT to be in stocks...which I have heeded. .I feel fortunate that I do have a survivor annuity as my 'basic' support; it isn't all that large, but at least it is dependable.

I REALLY don't like to pay interest! I budget for what I can put onto credit cards, as well as for my regular monthly expenses--utilities, fuel, food, etc.--as well as for 'unforseens', monthly. I live frugally, but at least, I know I will have a roof over my head. Because of recent years' events(escalation of costs of now, about EVERYTHING...), I have had to make some hard choices---like letting go of a third of my horses--but, you have to deal with what IS, not what you 'wish' IS....and I have been able to place all three where I am as sure as I can be, that they will be safe.

My point is---many people need to 'rethink' the way they handle their financial situation--and maybe even get better-educated on how to live within their means AND handle debt(or better still, avoid most of it.)

Just my honest opinions, of course.

Margo
 
I opened my computer this AM to a heading under the MSN Money section that said "WAMU CEO gets $19 million for three weeks", or words to that effect. So, I went and read the article, along with a couple of related ones...This kind of thing is an OBSCENITY(sort of like paying 'sports stars' the OBSCENE amounts they often get)...on top of that was the contention that the 'provisions' to limit CEO payouts in the 'bailout' are so flawed that they will be virtually meaningless, full of loopholes that can and will be exploited...but which are there essentially to 'look good' to us ignorant everyday taxpayers! Gee, what a surprise(heavy sarcasm INTENDED...) Is it any wonder that Americans are angry?

I am one who thinks this situation should be left alone to sort itself out-in other words, there should NOT be a bailout.It is PAST time that a hard lesson was learned, IMO...because I believe that so many have been operating their affairs in a fiscally irresponsible manner! Yes, they were 'invited' to do so, by irresponsible lenders, painting a picture of ever-escalating 'values' in housing, and encouraging irresponsible spending(want something? Add it onto the credit card; worry about how you'll pay for it 'later')...well, 'later' has arrived! But, the lenders were lending to adults, who are supposed to be able to make, and be responsible for, their decisions.

I don't owe ANYONE.My place is paid for; I looked ahead and knew that I would NOT have the retirement income to manage a mortgage payment, or any other sizeable monthly payment. I have never been in the stock market; I do not have the knowledge, nor have I EVER felt I could risk losing ANY of the principal--two reasons you are always advised NOT to be in stocks...which I have heeded. .I feel fortunate that I do have a survivor annuity as my 'basic' support; it isn't all that large, but at least it is dependable.

I REALLY don't like to pay interest! I budget for what I can put onto credit cards, as well as for my regular monthly expenses--utilities, fuel, food, etc.--as well as for 'unforseens', monthly. I live frugally, but at least, I know I will have a roof over my head. Because of recent years' events(escalation of costs of now, about EVERYTHING...), I have had to make some hard choices---like letting go of a third of my horses--but, you have to deal with what IS, not what you 'wish' IS....and I have been able to place all three where I am as sure as I can be, that they will be safe.

My point is---many people need to 'rethink' the way they handle their financial situation--and maybe even get better-educated on how to live within their means AND handle debt(or better still, avoid most of it.)

Just my honest opinions, of course.

Margo
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Anybody watching the dow ?? Media said yesterday as it CLIMBED ..after the rescue being voted down..it climbs in participation on baleout..

Today we closer to baleout and dow is SINKING..I am leaning towards - leave it alone..sorry McCain
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Margo..IF JP Morgan Chase pays this "CEO" you bet it will have consequenses
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The new plan says it will stop "Golden Parachutes" for CEO's..this is ONLY for NEW hired..Not the ones that already have their contract
 
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