Minimor
Well-Known Member
Or, maybe that's why no one does say anything to me, they see I'm living in Canada and therefore I do not "count" to talk with about US politics?
McCain - his vice-presidential choice
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Or, maybe that's why no one does say anything to me, they see I'm living in Canada and therefore I do not "count" to talk with about US politics?
LowriseMinis
Well-Known Member
No, see, we Americans know that you Canadians are a docile, peaceful people. We see no reason in provoking you.
tagalong
Well-Known Member
Wow is right.
So unless I am a citizen, I am not entitled to an opinion... an observation... a thought? Not "allowed" to participate in such discussions? What makes you think others cannot be passionate about this? I live here. It affects me as much as it affects you. The fact that you can be so dismissive...
Well, excuse me for caring.
Wow again.
I live here. I work here. I pay my taxes. I do endless hours of volunteer work in the community every week. I obey the law. I have jumped through all the endless bureaucratic nightmare of flaming hoops to be here legally - and it is not easy. You truly have no idea what a nightmare it can be. I felt kicked in the teeth when all the talk of granting amnesty to illegals - even giving them green cards and citizenship as a reward for breaking the law - was being proposed. Do things the legal way - as convoluted and belittling as it can be at times - and you may only get shafted. That seemed to be the message to all of us who have done the Right Thing. And yet we persevered anyway. Big whoop-ti-do, I know...
But you feel that I am not worthy? That my thoughts/concerns are beneath notice in any such discussion? I think I would have a fairly balanced outlook, to be honest - as I cannot influence the outcome one way or another. And I can see the flaws in both sides - without blindly accepting everything I am fed from the media or party press machines.
I suspect that if I was jumping up and down and praising McCain and Palin and ignoring all the usual political flip-flopping, embellishments and contradictions that you would not care that I was not a citizen.... I am willing to bet that would be the case, in fact.
Wow.
Jill, you really should check out that Daily Show clip. Not as a "news source" - just an observation. It is made up of clips from shows and commentators and even actual news sources you might find acceptable. McCain campaign people... Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove... Sarah Palin.... their own words.
minimor.... I guess some do not understand why many Canadians are interested in the US elections. As Trudeau opined almost 40 years ago, living next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered the elephant is, one is affected by every twitch and grunt...
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You took the WOW right out of my mouth...
Crabby-Chicken
Well-Known Member
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Tag, if I had realized you are not a US citizen, I actually would not have talked with you specifically on the subject of our Presidential election politics. Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. While I enjoy discussing many other things with you, I don't feel like THIS is common ground.
That has to be the rudest snobbiest comment I have ever heard...
MY opinion!!!!!!!!!!!
That has to be the rudest snobbiest comment I have ever heard...
MY opinion!!!!!!!!!!!
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Well, you see, in the first place, even though I live in Canada I am not a Canadian as such--I am still a US citizen, as American as I can be, even though I do not live there at this time. Even if I someday take out my Canadian citizenship I will not lose my US citizenship...and so no one should ever go by where a person lives to judge what they have a right to comment on.
In the second place, for my part I find it extremely interesting to sit down with people from other countries and discuss politics this way. It's extremely interesting to hear what people from other countries think of the government policies of each of our countries. This is even more so with people like Tagalong...and myself...for I am in the same situation as tagalong, only in reverse. I cannot vote in Canada because I have not taken out my Canadian citizenship. However, I live and work and pay taxes in this country. My life is affected by decisions made by all levels of government--and the same is true for tagalong living in the US...we are legal, not illegal, "aliens" for goodness sake!--and I certainly believe that I have the right to have opinions and *gasp* even voice those opinions in any discussion. (Actually I'm more properly called a landed immigrant, but believe me, people do like to make "alien" jokes when I tell them I am not a citizen.) I don't believe that I have ever before run into someone, anyone, that would suggest I don't belong in a discussion of Canadian politics! Wow.
As a side note, I will say that no matter what country I'm in, I do not consider Jon Stewart to be a worthy news source. I would not vote for him as Prime Minister, even if I could vote, and I certainly wouldn't want to support him as US President...
OH!
Yes, for sure it is as Pierre Trudeau said about sleeping with an elephant. Whatever happens in the US does ultimately affect Canada...free trade, the value of the US dollar...the list goes on and on when it comes to things that affect us here in Canada. So there is a reason why Canadians have an interest in what happens in US politics!
In the second place, for my part I find it extremely interesting to sit down with people from other countries and discuss politics this way. It's extremely interesting to hear what people from other countries think of the government policies of each of our countries. This is even more so with people like Tagalong...and myself...for I am in the same situation as tagalong, only in reverse. I cannot vote in Canada because I have not taken out my Canadian citizenship. However, I live and work and pay taxes in this country. My life is affected by decisions made by all levels of government--and the same is true for tagalong living in the US...we are legal, not illegal, "aliens" for goodness sake!--and I certainly believe that I have the right to have opinions and *gasp* even voice those opinions in any discussion. (Actually I'm more properly called a landed immigrant, but believe me, people do like to make "alien" jokes when I tell them I am not a citizen.) I don't believe that I have ever before run into someone, anyone, that would suggest I don't belong in a discussion of Canadian politics! Wow.
As a side note, I will say that no matter what country I'm in, I do not consider Jon Stewart to be a worthy news source. I would not vote for him as Prime Minister, even if I could vote, and I certainly wouldn't want to support him as US President...
OH!Yes, for sure it is as Pierre Trudeau said about sleeping with an elephant. Whatever happens in the US does ultimately affect Canada...free trade, the value of the US dollar...the list goes on and on when it comes to things that affect us here in Canada. So there is a reason why Canadians have an interest in what happens in US politics!
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
Sorry if people who are not US citizens don't like that I don't want to debate our politics with them but trust me, I'm not the only one who feels that way. People can think that's snobby if they choose. Let me know the next time you want to let me debate your own matters with you, you know... the ones I don't actually live day to day or have an honest stake in. I said and meant:
If anything, I might choose to say "I would not have debated..." vs "I would not have talked..." but in essence, I absolutely meant to say what I did.
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Minimor
Well-Known Member
Question for you Jill--how does someone like tagalong, who does live day to day in the American economy not qualify to discuss politics of that country? I just honestly do not get that one.
And did you know that people like me--US citizens who live outside the country and therefore do not live day to day in the american dream...actually do get to vote for who runs "our" country??? I can vote, just like you can, but by your standards I really shouldn't talk about it??
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
Holly, Tag "qualifies" to discuss US politics with anyone who'd like to discuss them with her. I personally do not care to debate the politics of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. What is there to not understand?
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Your way of thinking !
I have just never before come across anyone who had that attitude toward non-citizens and political discussions, that's all.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
Holly, I can easily elaborate and explain "my way of thinking" which I guess is confusing to you. Just pretty much a re-statement of what I said and meant on another similar thread.
I do not care what other nations think of our President or our Politics. Citizens of other nations do not know what it's like to be an American at this time (and this includes legal and illegal aliens).
Foreign media is even more biased than our own. Most of their leaders would prefer our Nation not to be the world power that it is. Lots of ulterior motives from the leaders in other nations, and also from many of their citizens as well (immigration comes to mind).
It annoys me to see people who are not US Citizens get adamant about the politics of the USA. Not only is it not within any other country's power to decide, it's also beyond their citizen's ability to actually know and deeply care what's best for our Nation. They do not know what it's like to live here as a United States Citizen in these times and their opinions of our politics do not weigh on my mind.
Honestly, I cannot think of anything else to say that would clarify how and why I feel as I do. While I understand some people may not agree with my opinion, I don't think it's hard to understand that this is a valid point of view. I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I do not care what other nations think of our President or our Politics. Citizens of other nations do not know what it's like to be an American at this time (and this includes legal and illegal aliens).
Foreign media is even more biased than our own. Most of their leaders would prefer our Nation not to be the world power that it is. Lots of ulterior motives from the leaders in other nations, and also from many of their citizens as well (immigration comes to mind).
It annoys me to see people who are not US Citizens get adamant about the politics of the USA. Not only is it not within any other country's power to decide, it's also beyond their citizen's ability to actually know and deeply care what's best for our Nation. They do not know what it's like to live here as a United States Citizen in these times and their opinions of our politics do not weigh on my mind.
Honestly, I cannot think of anything else to say that would clarify how and why I feel as I do. While I understand some people may not agree with my opinion, I don't think it's hard to understand that this is a valid point of view. I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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I understand Passion. BUT when it is such, that it creates walls, I don't think its productive. I've read every post. I will not be voting for a president that will make me feel warm and fuzzy, but for one that can make my country STRONG. That said after the Rep convention I'm climbing back on the fence again.
The MEDIA is the PROBLEM. They have the tools to give us JUST the FACTS in black and white but that won't get viewers.....so they spin.
Those that have posted, give me a website that isn't party specific and just lists the facts, voting records, attendance. Thats ALL I need to make my decision.
My only question of McCain is.....
Can he get along/get things done, on the playground? He is one man that has to convince both the House and Senate to agree with him. Also re foreign affairs the same deal. I agree with force when necessary, but I've learned you get more with sugar. Does he have the temperament?
The MEDIA is the PROBLEM. They have the tools to give us JUST the FACTS in black and white but that won't get viewers.....so they spin.
Those that have posted, give me a website that isn't party specific and just lists the facts, voting records, attendance. Thats ALL I need to make my decision.
My only question of McCain is.....
Can he get along/get things done, on the playground? He is one man that has to convince both the House and Senate to agree with him. Also re foreign affairs the same deal. I agree with force when necessary, but I've learned you get more with sugar. Does he have the temperament?
tagalong
Well-Known Member
EXCUSE ME? EXCUSE ME??!!
*looks around*
I seem to be here. For like - 9 years. Living just as all the American citizens do - and you would not know I wasn't one just from looking at me or talking to me. You could not pick me out of a line-up. I do not even say EH or oot and aboot. I LIVE HERE. I WORK HERE. I love my job. My friends - who do not care that I am not a citizen. The disabled riders I teach and volunteer with. They also do not care. You do not think that the events of 9/11 affected me here? Do you think that any of the people I met that day as we talked in hushed tones and raged and worried and cried gave a flying fig that I was not a citizen? I have taken a lot of crap from unbelievably rude and bullying immigration officers in order to be here - you have no idea. I do have a stake in what goes on and like to discuss it. All opinions matter to any discussion - and to summarily - and rudely - just sneer and dismiss the concerns of others because it many not be what you want to hear... shows that you really do not want to "discuss" any of this. It seems to be your way or the highway and no one else's opinion matters. Or they are lying. Or a joke. There is no need for that... it is far better to examine all sides of every issue. Or so one would think. I have been critical of a lot of the Democratic tactics as well. I am not wearing blinders. I am not one-sided. I never will be.
When the US figures in the affairs of so many countries - you think others should not be interested in what happens in the elections? It would be extremely short-sighted - and stupid - not to Pay Attention.
Jill - are you going to check everyone's citizenship and/or immigration status before you deign to consider their opinions? minimor and others who may live out of the country are not permitted to have a thought or express a concern?
Apparently not.
Wow. Again.
Jill - I can only surmise that you do not realize how that sounds - especially the way you have put it. Or - as you hinted - you do know and do not give a rip.
It was bad enough when W made it clear that illegals might be granted amnesty and given a pat on the head and handed the documentation FOR NOTHING (other than breaking the law) that so many of us have worked so hard for. We were shown that we did not matter - the illegals were far more important. If that had gone through it would have been a major kick in the teeth.
The way you have so rudely dismissed me - or anyone else in a similar situation... is also kind of a kick in the teeth.
Thank you.
And I can assure you that I care a lot more about what goes on in this country that a lot of the citizens around here who are not going to vote - and have not voted in a very long time. If ever.
And before you mention it and hold it over my head for some reason - I cannot become a citizen. My type of visa does not permit it. Nor does it permit you to apply for a green card. Yet. You need to have a green card and be a legal alien for 5 years in order to start the process. So the 9 years I have been here do not count..,
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LowriseMinis
Well-Known Member
See, I'm always interested in what everyone has to say about America's politics. I think anytime someone adopts a 'la la la la I can't hear you!' stance on anything, they're doing themselves a disservice. I know many people from other countries who follow American politics more closely than an awful lot of Americans, people who have lived here as non-citizens but have experienced America from a unique angle. And personally, I can't fathom not wanting to hear those opinions!
Of course Jill's entitled to her opinions and she's free to discuss (or not discuss) politics with whoever she wants. You're made your reasons clear, Jill, but I still don't understand.
Tag and everyone else, keep posting. In defense of my own country most of us aren't so unwelcoming of your opinions.
Of course Jill's entitled to her opinions and she's free to discuss (or not discuss) politics with whoever she wants. You're made your reasons clear, Jill, but I still don't understand.
Tag and everyone else, keep posting. In defense of my own country most of us aren't so unwelcoming of your opinions.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
Lowrise:
You do not have to understand why I feel as I do. All I can do (and don't need to do) is explain my reasoning which I did. I've also received MANY PM's and Emails from Americans who feel precisely as I do concerning debating our politics with non US citizens.
I just re-watched McCain's speech from last night. Right now, I feel very hopeful, proud and inspired.
Now, do you want to disuss the candidates? McCain and his VP choice? I think that's the topic title. Or do you just want to keep debating my opinions -- which is what you keep doing. I'm pretty well informed on both counts.
Jill
You do not have to understand why I feel as I do. All I can do (and don't need to do) is explain my reasoning which I did. I've also received MANY PM's and Emails from Americans who feel precisely as I do concerning debating our politics with non US citizens.
I just re-watched McCain's speech from last night. Right now, I feel very hopeful, proud and inspired.
Now, do you want to disuss the candidates? McCain and his VP choice? I think that's the topic title. Or do you just want to keep debating my opinions -- which is what you keep doing. I'm pretty well informed on both counts.
Jill
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LowriseMinis
Well-Known Member
I think I've already posted my opinion on Palin, but if I didn't, here we go:
This woman is just the opposite of everything I want in a political candidate. I think that sums it up nicely.
See? I talk politics with everyone.
But Jill, I thank you for your opinions and for helping me make up my mind about a few things. I'm going to swing by Obama's campaign HQ here in town and sign up to volunteer.
This woman is just the opposite of everything I want in a political candidate. I think that sums it up nicely.
See? I talk politics with everyone.
But Jill, I thank you for your opinions and for helping me make up my mind about a few things. I'm going to swing by Obama's campaign HQ here in town and sign up to volunteer.
Jill
Aspiring Cowgirl
That's great, Lowrise. You'll probably make lots of friends through it as well. That's been my experience when it comes to that kind of thing
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bingo
Well-Known Member
I truly have been reading these threads with an open mind. I had not yet made up my mind. This thread has taught me a lot. I have seen some recurring themes from one side and have decided firmly who I will not vote for.
If firmly believe a leader is only as good as his followers. McCains followers on this thread have shown me without a doubt what side I choose to be a part of! Lowrise I will be doing the same thing this evening.
If firmly believe a leader is only as good as his followers. McCains followers on this thread have shown me without a doubt what side I choose to be a part of! Lowrise I will be doing the same thing this evening.
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