My Side of the

[smallequie1]

I must say it is very hard to say that a horse genetically cant be pinto from registrations or be Tobiano to be exact. I think what this person was getting at (and NO, I do not know the person, am not on their side, etc) is that in order to get a tobiano pinto pattern you have to have a sire/dam that carries that pattern. A lot of the rock E bred ponies are sabino, I am no color expert, but I do own a rock e son myself, who has tested heterozygous sabino (nSb1) and several other rock e sons/daughters also are sabino (which again, the mares have something to do with it too!!). Bright maybe pinto, but that doesnt tell anyone what pattern he is especially, again, from registration papers.

As far as the mare, again, it is hard to say that she is or isnt pinto by PAPERWORK. Only real way of knowing is genetic testing, as stated, they can be solid and still carry pinto genes.

It does stink that this person did not sign their letter and talk to the source. If they were trying to put a bug in people's ears, then they went about it the wrong way. Filing a formal complaint and putting their $100 or whatever down for the complaint is the only way to really get things done if that is what they were after.

Belinda, and the Cherry's, I am sorry that this has come about, and I would be very, very upset if this was done to me. But, what I would do if it were me is do go ahead and DNA the filly since sire/dam already are and prove that there was no wrong doing or mistake with another stallion or whatever getting in the pasture. I personally would have to do that, as I would never want to be called out a "cheat". Prove it, put it to rest and we all go on! Put any doubts to rest and then you can put this back as a distant, very bad memory!!!!

I do agree that DNA really should be mandatory. NOT that I want to have to try and test my 30+ head all at once,

but I feel that it really should be done in order for the members of this associaton to be more accountable for things that MAY go on, shoot, even accidents happen, doesnt mean someone intentionally did wrong. This sort of thing right here would never have even come about if dna testing was mandatory..... I for one feel this is a real eye opener, and have been meaning to start dna-ing a few of mine every year just to start getting it done. I have felt it is just a matter of time before it is mandatory anyway, and my getting started on it now, would help me in the long run.

Jill

 

[Sun Shetlands]

BB

It sure is sad that that some person(s) have nothing better to do!!! I threw it in the trash - so unbelievable...

Bright Day is an awesome light colored tobiano and his pics can be found just about anywhere. Your website is one place to look and also in many of the last several years "Journal". Girl - you KNOW what you got in your barn! They just "can't handle the truth"!

Looking forward to seeing everyone at Convention!

Julie Hurst

 

[Howard Stables]

My answer is do NOTHING! You have done nothing wrong.

Why should you have to go to the expense of DNA'ing the pony to satisfy someone who won't even sign their name?

For one thing I don't believe that there is anything in the Rule Book that allows for someone to protest a pony's papers (and if you DNA you are allowing them to protest something that is not protestable and at no cost to them) and secondly I have been in this business long enough to know that both Shetland ponies and Miniature horses have their own set of color genetics.

I know of a very well known AMHA/AMHR stallion that to look at is a solid (although he does have four socks but no face white) and consistantly throws Tobiano Pintos out of solid mares. Even the owner has no idea where the toby comes from but he consistantly throws them.

The filly is a very nice pony and an asset to the breed!

 

[Frankie]

One word, jealousy, and let it go at that. You shouldn't have to prove a thing and I wouldn't put a second thought in to it.

If we could take the jealous factor out of the miniatures, including owning what ever horse, and placing how ever at a show, it would be a more content place. JMO

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

I had no clue what was going on with this topic, but today we got the "Letter", now I know what everyone is talking about now...

That letter was something else to read, they sure must have send a bunch of them out to everyone. They have more time on their hands than us to be putting all that together. Our unsigned letter went in the round file... also known as the garbage can.

 

[Minimor]

I don't know anyone involved in this but just wanted to say--do you know that there are some breeds that do rely on the colors on the registration papers? And if the color of a foal isn't compatible with the colors of the sire & dam, the registry will not allow registration of that foal?

Likewise there are some registries that will take action based on an anonymous letter to the registry--years back an unsigned letter to the Morgan horse association resulted in an investigation that ended with several horses being expunged from the registry. The person writing the letter had no further involvement; the registry paid the costs of the investigation. At the end of it the breeder/owner was suspended, but after several years was allowed back into the association provided that she repaid the registry for the entire cost of that investigation. If notified of the fact that a particular animal did not match the description on the registration papers, the registry would investigate.

I realize that in ASPC/AMHR there are many, many animals that for whatever reason do not match their paperwork, and that there are many foals registered to parents that couldn't possibly have produced the particular color of those foals--doesn't mean that the foals are wrong, just that the colors noted on the papers are--I realize this has been a long standing problem in the registry.

I wonder though how long we are going to allow our registry to continue on with this problem of wrong colors and wrong markings on papers? This isn't really related to this particular case, just something that I started thinking about tonight because of this thread. Are we as members not interested in having the registry change its policy--start requiring DNA and with it PQ of all foals at time of registration, that eliminates all question of who the parents really are. Of course there may still be old errors in the pedigree, but at least we'd know from the DNA start date going forward that the pedigrees are correct. Also start paying more attention to colors--if two chestnut parents produce a black, something is wrong somewhere! If other registries can do it, surely this one can too--equine color genetics, including pinto genetics, work the same regardless of breed, though the Minis and Shetlands may have a few more possibilities and combinations than you're likely to find in some of the other breeds.

 

[Leeana]

I got the letter today and WOW .... someone really went through some time and trouble to print off the pedigree, post and write up such a letter.

Mine was post marked back to a place in N. Houston TX .......

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

same postmark here also, Houston TX

 

[JennyB]

[SIZE=12pt]I can't say really who is at fault here and maybe nobody is intentionally, but there is no tobiano lines in this fillie's bloodlines in the first 3 generations. There is a lot of sabino in these lines, but no tobiano. So YES DNA testing is needed first in the futurity horses and then in all ASPC lines. Many people have started doing this already and maybe a suggestion would be that when you have the extra $$ to start slowly DNA testing all your ponies as it WILL HOPEFULLY HAPPEN and if you have large herds it would be easier to take your time at testing. Just my opinion![/SIZE]

Can anyone find any tobiano lines in the first 3 generations? There is one mare on the bottom side in the fourth generation which is pinto, but didn't pass that along for proof! I went back 8 generations on this fillie's pedigree(if it's a true pedigree) and out of 434(hope this is right-please correct me if it is wrong) possiblities(minus some for the Americana stallion who does not have a pedigree with ASPC)...353 are solid's, roans and sabino's and 81 were pinto's. Needing to remember that we don't really know what most of these ponies wayyy back in the generations looked like as pinto's..same with even some not too far back as pictures on papers are just a recent happening. In just "my" opinion I don't see either parent being a tobiano in pedigree. This filly has a classic tobiano pattern and would likely come from one parent who is very similar to her.

She is very pretty and I congratulate her breeder and owner, but I would "really" want to know the true heritage of this filly if she were mine or I had bred her. So why doesn't this fillie's owners just have her DNA'd? Is the sire and dam DNA'd?

Jenny

 

[Belinda]

Jenny !!

Guess you just did not read the part about the dam have socks and white spots on her tail and on her neck !!! Those are not listed on a pedigree.. Also the part that I bought her from a SALE !! Maybe go back and read my post .. Please , And without having DNA from her parents on back how does anyone know what they are buying ????? ' I was NOT the BREEDER of either of this FIllys' parents ! And I have also been told by the many phone calls that several horses in this pedigree did have pinto markings, and not just the sabino .

I ask the steward at the show this weekend how many papers in a year she corrects for color and markings , and her answer was more than she could count or remember , she said there were corrections at every show !!

so there is a problem with people not knowing their colors , putting all the markings etc, then we have the problem with maybe the papers coming back from the office with not all the correct colors and markings on the papers ,, and maybe your busy and just don't notice or maybe don't think it is that important..

So I would not ever think I could predict what a horse can produce color wise according to colors on a pedigree. !!!

But once again I Thank all those that understand how stupid the letter was that went out, Oh and my horse DID NOT WIN the Futurity

THat part of the letter was also wrong ..

And as my good friend Robin on the mini forum said in her post , it is sad that people have to try and attack those of us that are trying so hard to only do good things for this industry , Think about it , isn't sad , she is over the mini forum having to defend her Farm and breeding program and then you come over here and I am having to do the same thing,, What is wrong with the world lately !!

 

[JWC sr.]

Hey folks,

It is interesting to me that some folks are really worried about this filly, Belinda and Cindy/I for some reason. It seems they for whatever reason have decided to form opinions about her and her heritage using only the most rumidatory of information(listed colors on the papers) that comes from sources that have in the past and will in the future proved to be fallible. Additionally about when the scientist think they have the genetics of color worked out, then something comes along and changes the rules as we know them today.

This is what I can tell you, this filly is beautiful and is going to be around a long time. She is the picture of perfection when it comes to a shetland filly. Evidently the judges thought so also as she was unaminous on all cards at Congress.

I personally saw her nursing her mother and there is no doubt in my mind the mare is the fillie's mother.

As far as Bright being her daddy, I believe that to be correct also. She has his pretty head etc.

But with that all said time will tell, Belinda when she has time will pull hair for us and we will verify her using DNA and the university of Kentucky to do so.

I bet when those results come back we will not get many if any responses such as the ones we have seen on this subject.

I love these forums for the ability to stay in touch with people and to view opinions from a lot of people in different walks of life from my own. And if any of you have seen the posts I make, I usually try to stay positive &/or informative or I just keep my mouth shut. Unfortunately some people have not learned how to be reasonable or use the common coutesy's our mothers all tried to teach us.

But as Robin Eberth said over on the mini forum, after this is little episode is over and done. I think I can find a lot more productive ways to spend my time in light of the negatism and down right pettiness of some folks on here. I feel sorry for those people and pray they find something that makes them happy in life somewhere down the road.

The old saying of 10 minutes from home or having a computer makes a lot of folks the experts we others wish we were, sure applies here.

On a final note, Belinda please realize I am very happy to own your filly and look forward to great things from her in the future. Thanks for allowing me to buy her!!!! If her dad and mom ever become for sale I would love to own them also!!!

Also don't worry about all this stuff, you could not pay for all the free advertisement Bright and you are getting from this. Heck, I bet you can double the price of his offspring next year and they would all still sell. WHOA wait a minute, forget that last thought. That would mean my price would increase also. LOL

 

[kaykay]

Jenny

I am really surprised you would post that. We all know how inaccurate colors on papers are. I dont think its intentional but it happens a lot. How many silver dapples are listed as "grey" How many silver bays are listed as "Palomino" How many sabinos are listed as "grey" And it doesnt help that our registry doesnt recognize certain colors so that in of itself leads to papers that are not correct.

My stallion is a tobiano. I knew it from the minute I saw him but even his breeder thought he was solid. So that is how she registered him. As he matured I felt even more sure he was so I tested him. Came back positive for 1 Tobiano gene.

People dont get that the minimal form of Tobiano is 4 white socks with jagged edges. They do NOT have to have body white to be Tobiano. This is why people still mistakenly insist there are pinto crop outs. Nope just minimal pintos that peole thought were solid. Then they get a pinto foal and scratch their head LOL

Anyway I agree just dna them and that will put a stop to all of this questioning! Hey John I would be happy to take her off your hands

Ten L's Tigers Back In Black Genetically tested Tobiano

 

[allaboutminis]

WOW is all I can say.. There is no fun when the heat is on somebody else is it? I can remember nationals two years ago when people showed their butts about another trainer. and the heat was on that person. I just wonder if they are having a good ole time about this. because if it was me i would be.

krama is a witch so what goes around does come back to bite you in the butt. just the way i feel about it

so i have my flame suite on

 

[ruffian]

"I can't say really who is at fault here and maybe nobody is intentionally, but there is no tobiano lines in this fillie's bloodlines in the first 3 generations. There is a lot of sabino in these lines, but no tobiano. "

As said, papers can be SO wrong. In many cases, the papers list pinto. Not Sabino, not Tobiano. Pinto. So how can you confirm that there is no sabino? Especially many generations back?

Not to flame, but I can confirm that papers can be very wrong. I had a mare that was registered bay. She was actually sorrel. Also had a huge white star on her forehead that was not listed on her papers. I called the registry and was told to send in the papers. Not even, then, photos! I also currently have a gray pinto mare. She was born sorrel pinto. Bright sorrel. Over the years she has faded to white. Anyone looking at her today would call her a solid gray. So please do not hastily judge based on paperwork alone.

In addition, there have been farms in the past that basically let stallions run with mares, sometimes several stallions in the same field. Then looked at the resulting foal and said - yep, that's So and So's baby!!! I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED HERE BY ANY MEANS. I AM SAYING THAT PAPERWORK, ESPECIALLY PAPERS ON OLDER HORSES CAN BE LESS THAN 100%.

Belinda - the best thing to do with that letter is to use it to light your Christmas candles!!! You are too good of a person to let someone mess with your mind. Some people need a life!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Wow talk about alot of hoop la. I don't know anything about this story and personally don't care except for the fact that this person did alot of trouble for nothing. But you cannot take colors that seriously on papers. Breeders and owners can never get the colors right and even at the registry people over there think they need to be the experts and decide what colors to put on the horse. Thank God now we have the pics and not those stupid lil drawings. I have a good feeling sometime in the future we will bring DNA into AMHR/ASPC. It needs to happen and needs to happen soon, just like it did with the pictures on the papers. Still with DNA people won't believe color genetics. I find color so confusing on these horses its not even funny. Yep looks like a black horse.

Anyways I wouldn't bother with it, you know what your breeding program is and it works. People just need to get over it.

 

[Robin]

Belinda- could you imagine what these people would have done 10-15 or 20 years ago when buying hroses? "Papers- what papers- well lets see--- it is black- so the sire must be that black one over there.... Or if you want... we can put it is the red one over there if you like him better..."!Ha Ha Ha

Yes people- that is how it used to be- and not so long ago. That is why the genetics that John E has been working on is such a big deal. When people start asking me what color something is or what color will it produce- I say good luck with that one.... There is no true documentation of color past the horse itself - unless you are one that has invested solely in DNA color tested horses. You can not trust the registration papers. Let me repeat- You Can Not Trust the Registration Papers for COLOR Documentation!!!!

One story- once there was a cremello colt born- his application was sent in by the breeder/owner. He was a colt, cremello, Sire: Boones Little Buckeroo. Dam Little Kings Buckeroo Cameo- a palomino pinto Buckeroo daughter. The papers came back and were filed away. 3 years later we went to permanently register this horse-his name was Little Kings White Russian. I noticed he was listed as a "RED ROAN" on his orginal papers. Now- Dear Mother who keeps a copy of EVERYTHING - had me pull up his original application copy- yes- Cremello was listed when we sent it in. I looked at his picture on the back of the papers- yes- a clipped white colt with blue eyes and a pink nose, pink skin around eyes, pink skin inside ears...... Hmmm- what happened???? Come to find out- the dear sweet lady in the office who has never seen this horse and knew nothing about horse colors decided that his hair looked more pink with white mixed in it and decided to pick the color as red roan instead of trusting what we listed. She could see his pink skin thru the hair and assumed that was red hair..... again- Don't trust the registration papers for COLOR!

Now- just to let you know from a person who has registered hundreds of horses- it isn't that horses change color- although many due- some buckskins are born with very little grey/black on them, some buckskins are born golden and dark and turn to be a mousy brown, some horses roan in a matter of a year, some horses get spots in a year, some belly spots are never ever noticed, some perlino pintos you can't even see their spots until they are clipped down and wet! But most importantly- the people who are registering and breeding horses do not know what colors are what. Not only that--- there was once a time when color didn't matter, the genetics and bloodlines didn't matter- only size mattered! And let me repeat- from a genetics and breeding standpoint- it was not that many generations AGO!

So - to make a big stink out of this situation based solely on the colors that are listed in a horse's pedigree- is a big bunch of BS and would never, ever hold up in any genetic testing lab or research program. You can not predict or eliminate without going back and getting blood from each animal and doing color genetic research on them. What is listed on paper is not ever enough evidence to determine genetic probability.

So- as Belinda said- if you are concerned with color- Buyer Beware. You best be buying the horse for the way it looks standing in front of you- because no one can guarantee the colors on paper for all the past generations are correct and dependable. No One! And the kciker is--- the peopole complaining aren't the people who owned or bred the horse--- it is someone jealous that a horse won. I would like to go in and begin color testing all their horses to see if they match what they show on paper!!!!!

Just my 2 cents- I would love to see what John E would say about this topic. Honestly - I think he would just laugh and not waste his time with the nonsense!

Sorry B for having to be drug thru the mud on this one! You know as others said to me on the mini forum- you must be doing something right for them to care enough to try and tear you apart!

I'll toast one to ya!

Robin-LKF

 

[Minimor]

Belinda- could you imagine what these people would have done 10-15 or 20 years ago when buying hroses? "Papers- what papers- well lets see--- it is black- so the sire must be that black one over there.... Or if you want... we can put it is the red one over there if you like him better..."!Ha Ha Ha
Yes people- that is how it used to be- and not so long ago.

and so because that is how it used to be, that's how it should continue to be? Maybe that's not the point you're trying to make, but I read that portion & didn't go any further in your post.

Good thing that today we have DNA testing available, and can prove most colors and some of the patterns, as well as parentage.

 

[Robin]

and so because that is how it used to be, that's how it should continue to be? Maybe that's not the point you're trying to make, but I read that portion & didn't go any further in your post.
Good thing that today we have DNA testing available, and can prove most colors and some of the patterns, as well as parentage.

No- That is not what I am saying. Today breeders and buyers NOW have the option of DNA testing their hores to be certain of what they are getting, but still- if you DNA the horse- doesn't mean it is by the sire and dam on paper unless you Parent Qualify them. And even then- that doesn't mean they are who it says they are on paper unless you go back again and parent qualify. It is impossible to back track every horse in a pedigree to prove it is what it says it is. And from what I understand - some of the DNA on file doesn't match up right anyway. Not only that, the DNA that is on file isn't the "right" DNA to do most research and genetic comparisons for today's tests.

So again- we are dealing with history here folks- and It is what it is- like it or not. We can't change it, we have to learn how to work with it, accept it for what it is, go from here forward and test and prove what you want to better the informaiton and knowledge for the future. But we can't ignore that the fact is in the old days- not so long ago- there was no proof, or tests required, or care to even do so by some breeders and sellers. Let alone the fact that some people just didn't know and still may not know- especially when it comes to COLOR.

Just my thoughts on the matter- hope I clarified my point earlier. Sorry for the confusion- but if you know me or our breeding history and involvement in genetics- you would never have questioned my intended meaning.

Thanks-Robin-Little King Farm.

 

[Miniv]

EXCELLENT THREAD........

Thank you Belinda for bringing some ugly stuff out into the open. That kind of thing has been occurring for years and most trainers and breeders keep it quiet and feel threatened. People who write letters like that UNSIGNED??? They should be tossed in the garbage bin. If they had something valid to say they would have backed it up with their name.

Robin of Little King Farm also had a very valid point. (Robin, you probably wouldn't remember Larry or me because we haven't seen you face to face since you were a TWEEN and YOUNGER. HA HA - don't kill me for that) Anyway, what Robin described was actually surprisingly ACCURATE...........

There is a very well known breeder who once told us back in the early 1990's when we were visiting his place.... "You like that one? So......who do you WANT to be her parents????" NO JOKE.

Since then, that particular breeder has changed his practices and is actually rather ANAL about bloodlines......go figure.

 

[Robin]

EXCELLENT THREAD........


Robin of Little King Farm also had a very valid point. (Robin, you probably wouldn't remember Larry or me because we haven't seen you face to face since you were a TWEEN and YOUNGER. HA HA - don't kill me for that) Anyway, what Robin described was actually surprisingly ACCURATE...........

Hi Larry - I remember you both well! Hope all is well with you both. It is a shame that when the "old way of oing things" is brought up it is taboo to mention it. However- if new breeders/buyers don't know the hisotry then how can they predict what their future will be for their program and foal? They can't. People should not put their heads in the sand on this one. It isn't anything we should be proud of as a breed- it is just the way it was and we must know that in order to move forward. Those that deny the facts and truths of the mini and shetland histories are doing a disservice to everyone involved. Just my thoughts! By the way- good to here from you- are you still hauling horses? Robin-LKF