Nationals

[Jill]

I watched a lot of the classes online and I surely couldn't have seen enough to place the classes based on the video! Not that I didn't LOVE seeing the classes -- I did!!! But, in the classes where everyone is in the ring "competing" at the same time and sharing the time on the camera with 25+++ or so other horses... there's no way us here at home looking at our computer screens saw more than a tiny fraction as much as the judges did. No way we could honestly place the class correctly based only on what we saw from this side of the computer...

Each year following Nationals and/or Worlds, we have these threads and from my perspective, there are some people who have / will post and who just make these threads reak of jealousy and sour grapes

 

[bingo]

Jill I believe most are discussing what they saw in person?

 

[Jill]

The members who made the comments that prompted me to post what I just did were NOT at Nationals

 

[MiLo Minis]

I personally felt the halter classes that I watched (I was there in person

) were pinned appropriately as in most cases the top ten picks I made coincided with the judges' top ten picks with minor variations in the placings and yes, quite a few of those horses were handled by trainers. I know I was looking at the horses and not the handler when I chose my ten. There were other horses in the classes with competitive conformation but they were not being shown to their best advantage and didn't necessarily have that 'spark' of a champion that draws your eye.

 

[Frankie]

Everyone's opinion can be different. For those of you saying,,hmm,,,,,,,after lets say Class A,,,,,,,,,maybe there were a dozen people saying hmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,but would have all picked different winners.

Many here have said, "in my opinion", or horse "deserved to win", and other comments close to the same.

My question is,,,,,what makes anyone right? Including judges? No matter how you look at it, the Judges are right. After all, once written on their card, the winner of that class he/she chose, makes him right. Heck, it's even announced that way, ribbons given out that way.

We all have the right to disagree, but in a competition where it is pretty much the opinion of a actual person, we should be thankful we are all different with different opinions, or there would be NO NEED for competition.

Or,,,,,,,we could have a National Contest on LB where it would take about 6 months to finish one class while waiting for all to vote, get on line, and argue their case why their opinion is the right one.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Since the OP stated in her first post that she was talking about big trainers, I don't think Erika fits in this thread. Personally I think several times, she was placed to low or not at all and deserved better placings. I did get to watch all of the amateur, futurity and some of the open. I could tell a marked difference in the judging in all three. But then again it is one persons opinion no matter what we think. And with AMHR's bizarre way of calculating placings, no wonder a lot of people were confused. Either way it was a good show and hopefully we will all be back next year to enjoy it again.

I haven't read all the posts but I will go back and do so. But I just wanted to comment on this. I was watching online, so not there showing and not in the stands, but I can tell you that SEVERAL times, especially in Ammy, I thought Erica got screwed! I couldn't believe some of the horses that placed above hers. Sometimes I thought it was reasonable, but for the most part I thought they were very tough on her. Just my opinion.

 

[Marty]

I had a nice ring side seat here at home and I learned plenty.

(edited to add hey Parm, we must have been watching the same classes)

Since you brought up Erica, not sucking up or anything, but in the first place, she can totally carry off wearing yellow! She had her share of stiff competition and I think she placed fairly well most of the time nice job well done, but I did see her get royally screwed in one class that I couldn't understand. She was beaten by a ribby bone rack with zero neck who just wasn't a nice horse in my opinion that I would have placed at all. I was like you have got to be kidding me. I didn't get that.

There were a couple of men that I swear were down right evil acting towards their horses. I had to gasp at the way they were being handled and wondered if they realized they were on camera. I could only imagine what goes on behind closed doors.

I did love watching the showers that showed actual affection for thier anmals and that had that special connection with them, and also the ones that entered the ring that actually looked like they were happy to be there. I kept watching some little gal from Florida, don't know who she was, showing quietly as can be, no big exagerrated chicken dance, just nice and quiet and it was amazing to watch how her horses never took their eyes off of her and obviously loved what they were doing. I loved watching Annette and how she got way down to give her little weaner scratches and pets.Too cute. I loved watching the Sansavere family. They brought tears to my eyes. What an incredible bunch of kids they have.

My overall take however was that I learned the importance of wearing an iron clad support bra. There were quite a few bouncers in there!

 

[whitney]

It would be interesting to see the number of horses entered by professionals.

Marty I was another that learn a TON by watching. The only thing I couldn't understand was the way they had them line up talk about a ZOO. What happended to a straight line those poor exhibitors had no way of knowing WHERE the judges were at any given time. Also the way they have their horses trot through the 2 judges talk about sour faced horses the majority had ears pinned and were jumping all over the place, not pretty at all.

 

[txminipinto]

LOL! Marty! Yes, it's very important to wear a good support bra no matter what your size is!!

Duct tape them if you have too!

Now, I originally wasn't going to touch this topic as a trainer, but some people brought up some points that I want to address. First and foremost, there is no reason with an arena that size that we have to put horses and exhibitors on top of each other! This was a problem in a couple classes at Congress as well. SPREAD us out! One rank horse and someone will be hurt!

Which brings me to my next topic - handlers being "evil" to their horses. I did not witness anyone being overly rough on their horses though I did hear about a driving incident that I didn't not witness so can't really comment on. However, I was a victim of being accused of being "too rough" with a stallion. To give some history, I have been handling a stallion that does not respect me or anyone else (another well known trainer had him and experienced the same problems), he bites, strikes, and kicks. And he does so with intent to injure not out of fear - he fears no one. My advice to anyone that thinks a handler is being too rough on a horse, offer to take the horse off their hands for a moment and give them a break.

I would have welcomed a break from the land shark! And it might be enlightening to say the least of the different levels of horses being handled by professionals. Its easy to look at some of the placid, gentle horses shown at Nationals and then turn around and see one that needs a very experience handler and say that the individual holding the lead is being too forceful with the horse. Yet, when it's your arm being grabbed in whole by a stallion you might think differently. :arg!

I will say the situation is being corrected this week. Permantly.

 

[user 488]

Oh Brother! What can one say! One of our yearly political threads.

Of COURSE there are going to be politics. Politics are part of almost everything we take part in. I learned a long time ago that if you can't deal with it......DON'T SHOW. Were there a few dumpy winners? You bet. And as judges go, some were perpetuating some extremely bad miniature horse faults by placing these horses. But you know what? As long as you are paying for someones opinion that is the way it is.

I choose to show. I win more than my share, but when I don't I just think about the times I might have won when maybe I shouldn't have. When I come out of a class.......It's OVER. I choose not to get into a big POST MORTEM. It's on to the next class......business as usual. You either learn to let things go, take what is handed to you, or get out of showing. As long as judging horses is based on opinions, it will never change.

I will say the situation is being corrected this week. Permantly.

I see the vet on the way to your farm!

 

[Tucker]

I myself self was there at nationals and yes hmmmmmmmm go long ways. I myself have shown only one year in 5 years and Im going to start showing next year.but I see post like this makes me not want to show at all. But I have alot of fun and I learn alot from others I really dont mind if I dont place I go to have fun meet people. Im not going to let post like this get me to not want to show.Yes I understand what you guys mean I seen it first hand,but all in all no matter what you think it will happen year after year,theres nothing you can do.I got to know some wonderful people at nationals and alot of beautiful horses there

I could have taken all home with me. good job guys at your winings .

 

[cre]

We are still a small registry, we need to fix this problem at that level. Convention is coming up .....

 

[Erica]

First of all thank you for the kind comments about my horses

I don't love them or anything.... It's been yet again many hard and very long hours at the barn after "real work"/job, but I was very pleased with not only the way they showed but also the way they looked. Some got tired towards the end, but I would and was as well after two weeks on concrete stalls.

It is a special feeling to walk away championships on horses not only that you have conditioned, trained and shown yourself.......but also bred, even two or three generations deep. It's more intimate connection I think.

I really wasn't going to reply to this thread, as I'm not one to scream politics, but of course here I am typing so.....

First a huge pat on the back to everyone involved in putting together this show, Davenport does an outstanding job; and while yes everyone may not be happy, with 1600 or so horses there I doubt there has ever been a year that everyone does leave all hunky dory.

As has been stated before, trainers are paid to show the best they can get in their barn, to the best of their ability, in the best shape.........to promote their training center to the upmost they can. It's how they make a living! You won't find many trainers just taking in whatever they can to "pay the bills".....they want the best they can get. It's their reputation.

Yes there were some classes that you thought

.... as the horses were just not there even if handler was...but in several classes I think the top three could have been swapped 1-2-3 as easy as 3-2-1. And looking at the cards you could see that.......I had several classes were I was 1-2-3 and got 2nd, because winner got 1-1-6 along those lines and I'm glad Karen posted the thread about the judging system as it's really hard to get a grip on it, but once you understand it I think you do...I'm still much in limbo on understanding it, maybe I can finally learn it.

I paid for judges opinion and that's what I got. Yep maybe a few classes I felt I wasn't seeing what the judges were and thought I had a neat horse on my lead, but not something I'm going to let rain on my parade for the two weeks I look forward to the most each year!!

I felt for the most part that every judge at least looked at my horse - whether they liked it or not, that was THEIR opinion, I guess whether they even liked me was their opinion as well. I thought futurity judge did a neat job of pulling out what she liked to a cut, then pulling again for a lesser cut and then moving here and there sort of like they do in dog shows lining them up, comparing to others.......then taking a look, writing down the numbers, or moving them again.

I also found the judges nice and courteous......either with a good morning, lovely jacket, thank you ext.....I really appreciate it when they acknowledge you even in a simple way.

Most also if you were in a bind when they came by would offer to come right back and give you time to get your horse set to it's best again, another blessing, as it's the pits when your horse shows and shows and at the split second decides it's time to move all out of wack.

I've already made my comment about the ribbons on that thread and our center ring decorations way outclass anything I've seen.......just gorgeous as always and an essential part of the show I think, as that is what all the spectators in the stands or live feed see; very classy.

Competition is tough, has been and will be......and I don't think it will get any easier......I haven't seen it going that route anyway in the last few years.

I remember going to my first Nationals oh I think it was ten years ago..98, but who knows. Of course I thought my horses where unbeatable, I LOVED them, they were "my babies"........well I came home with ONE ribbon, a 7th in jumping. Of course I was 14 at the time showing in open and youth and whatever I could as I always have, and yes I thought well I'm no body, they didn't look at my horses close enough ext.......

But then I had to let it all sink in, went and really watched some classes, I mean REALLY watched some classes. My mind starting thinking how can I make my horses look like those, show like those ext...

It's all a learning curve, I sure didn't get where I am at by sitting back wishing I would have won it all my first year (matter of fact I'm glad I didn't as it put a strive in me to get horses, my horses looking their ultimate and in doing that made myself learn about different things such as conformation - teaching yourself to get a good eye for horse flesh) Really allowed me to make A LOT of very close friends by asking and watching what they do, people I can go to at a show, on the phone, email and ask questions that 10 yrs ago I would be too shy to even say Hi to.

Not sure why I feel the need to write the above as it's not the "question" posed by the posted, maybe it's the responses about how they feel they shouldn't show if so and so is always going to win. Take a look at what so and so is showing, how they prep it, how it's conditioned, ask questions.....watch, learn and take head to it. I do believe there are plenty of people if they would stick with it could really do well.

But it takes time (and I'm not meaning time to "pay dues" as some call it...) But it takes A LOT Of commitment and time to get horses ready to show, it burns some out quickly I think, before they have time to shine.

And yes Carin I feel the same way.....WHY can't they line up 4 (instead of 5) in a row..and yes I have told my directors about it as well and asked them to bring it up. I hate feeling cramped and even worse hate being in front of someone who likes to "stomp" to get their horses ears up as it makes my horses ears go back when they are only 2-3 ft behind me, or I have a horse doing a butt tuck from the noise. I also asked why we can't set up profile to the audience to spectators can get a view of the show better...they asked at the show and said the video set up couldn't get exhibitors that way, but I hope it is brought up and thought about and possibly thought about for next year, as I think the videographer is capable of moving to a different location and still getting horses in shots.

Oh well, my two cents...I'm still trying to catch up on unpacking and sleep, neither of which is full done yet.

 

[Echo Acres]

I just wanted to edit this to say that I guess I was posting at the same time as Erika and see we touched on some of the same things. Sorry to repeat.

Several of you guys have good points, but I still stick to my initial posting. Yes I do believe the trainers have a lot of the best horses. They would not accept anything less because it is their name on the line. I am not saying that these horses didn't deserve to place, maybe should have been in the top 5 or on a rare occasion lower. However several of them placed 1st or 2nd.

I also agree that trainers have an advantage on us because that is what they do. They do spend more time, and they do learn those secrets and that is what makes them a trainer. I am not personally knocking down any trainers, and as a matter of fact we have had 1 horse with a trainer this year. (I will even go as far as saying that this horse was the only one out of our 4 that didn't get a top ten) Was I dissapointed, well yes. But there was a time she was not being worked for personal reasons and I feel that she was probably judged fairly as she had some big classes. The rest of our horses got top ten and they were 100% worked, and conditioned by little old me and my family. I am not trying to attack trainers in general. We are close friends with a few and wouldn't change that for the world.

I am mainly speaking of the halter classes, but as mentioned in here there were some instances that showed in driving as well. Now with these classes it is all about what the judges see and what they don't. They can't see every horse all the way around the arena. I have to say I was in the cart with my son in his driving class. Did I think he deserved to win, absolutely not. There were better horses and better drivers in his class. Do I feel he placed a little low, probably. I watched the video afterwards to get a better idea. There was one horse that was western country at best. (this was a country pleasure class) The horse had no headset (my son didn't really either) but the movement on that horse was terrible. It placed reserve. Yes I fully believe it was because of that youth's parent that was sitting in the cart with them.

Will this keep me from showing? At this point no. I enjoy it and really enjoy my time at nationals. But it always puts a damper on things when you see it get this bad. I understand that we are paying for those judges opinions on that given day. That is the name of the game. I am one that usually never argues with a judges decision. If I see something isn't right, which happens a time or two like a horse refusing to back in line up and then still taking first... I shrug it off and hope for something different next time. But this was so obvious it was hard not to say.

Someone on here mentioned to go look at their whole show record. So I did. They were in 80+ classes. 21 classes they had a 0 by there horse. After reviewing those classes 12 were championship classes and most of the time that horse was beat by another one of their horses. Most of the placings were 1st or 2nd with a handful being less than that. Can they have that many of the best horses in the nation? Possibly is it probable to have that many in one persons hands or is it politics, I will leave that up to you.

Also someone said I should go down and look at the book. I did in several classes. There was one of the judges that continuously placed only certain trainers, and there were several complaints put in the the judge. I also think when they select judges it should be thought over more carefully than it is. Last year all the judges were from one general area. I think they should select judges by a vote, then look to see what area's they are from and spread them out. I also think they should look at their abilities as weather their specialty is halter, driving and that sort of thing. This way your placings might be a little spread out, but you know the judges know what they are looking for. Judges are human, and they have their own personal preference, but they also have a job to do.

I only showed in a handful of classes (12 total with my son's included) But I did see/hear some very inappropiate actions from the judges. Such as talking amongst themselves while the judges cards are still out, talking for quite some time with some of the exhibitors while cards are still out, and comments they made as you came thru the judges coming into the halter classes. I don't mind if the judges make polite comments, and have a good time. I actually enjoy it. But this was excessive.

Oh and one last comment. I did not get to spend a lot of time in the stands watching classes. Most of my halter comments are based on seeing theses horses close up in the warm up ring.

Some of you might think I just need something to complain about. But I am not usually one to bring things like this up and a lot of you that post on here a lot notice I don't post very often and if I do it isn't to complain.

 

[Just Us N Texas]

I was not there when our horses showed, and we did not place top ten in any of our futurity classes, and I and the rest of us did not really expect to. We knew the trainers were going to win largely because our horses were not as fit as they should have been. That was because this year has been a particularly busy one for us, and the horses have not gotten the attention a trainer could give them.

I will have to brag that one of "those" trainers had a horse that the girls had sold last year, and won every class he took her into. I will also go so far as to say I am sure she was justified in winning. If she had not been, she would not have been bought by her particular now owners for such a handsome price, nor would the trainer have had her.

On the other hand, there was one judge in particular that I don't think should have been. From many many exhibitors I have spoken to, he would not look at anyone unless they were a known trainer. He also did not have knowledge of fine carts. He walked up to one exhibitor and asked if her family had built her cart. It was like asking someone with a rolls royce if they had made it. Evidently he was not knowledgeable about such equipment or classes.

I know AMHR does it's best to get judges from different areas of the country to judge, but I would hope they would also check into their backgrounds to ascertain if they were knowledgeable about all aspects.

We did very well in driving with a green little horse that had only been hooked to the cart for two weeks before he went to Nationals. He placed 6th and 8th in his two driving classes, and had it not been for this particular judge, his placings would have been higher, because the other two judges used him much higher than he did. I am not downing him for that, just his opinion. But, I am downing him because he did not know his equipment or fine harness, and tended to only place known trainers when he could.

 

[Jill]

Erica, what a good post and it illustrates one of the qualities I admire the most about you. You have a way of standing back, seeing the big picture, and finding a way to incorporate improvements into the things you yourself do. You also are so good to share your advice and insight with others

 

[Echo Acres]

Erika- You should be very proud. To not only work so hard at training and conditioning, but to raise your own national champions or top tens is a big accomplishment. Plus you work. Very well deserved!

I am getting the impression that some people think I felt put out so to speak at nationals. That is not it at all. Since most of you don't really know me, I want to just tell you something quick. This was our 4th show season in minis and our 3rd year at natioanals. Two years ago we took 2 horses and came home with 1 ribbon. Last year we felt our horses weren't quite what they needed to be so we left them home and just came to watch. In the last couple of years we have bought and sold a handful of minis. Of course we are always learning and trying to improve. We did improve by buying a couple of new minis, most were bought as babies and we did the training and conditioning. A couple we bought from a trainer and left with a trainer. I have to say that we have made some really good friends and I have learned a lot from them. I can't thank them enough. This year we changed our feed program, conditioned a lot harder and put a lot more grunt work so to speek into our horses. It showed. We had what I would call a decent show season and I am very proud with our results from nationals. There was one class I thought we should have gotten a ribbon, but that happens a lot.

I honestly have to say in my geldings class he did not get a ribbon and that was a 100% on. I took a good look at his competion before the class and as we were headed in and it was a NICE class. My gelding did place in a large driving class which I was thrilled about, I was happy with just making the cut. But in my class I didn't make it. First off I chose to show in the open rather than the Ladies or Amatuer because the classes weren't so big. My choice 100%. I did not make the cut because of my driving and the fact my poor little guy had to pee really bad. I just didn't have the speed I needed.

So I am very happy with our results and it has nothing to do with my topic. Actually it has to do with more of the forum members. There were people out there like Erika who had really nice horses. And they did well, but myself and several others feel they just should have done better because they had the horse to do it!

 

[tagalong]

And yes Carin I feel the same way………WHY can’t they line up 4 (instead of 5) in a row…..and yes I have told my directors about it as well and asked them to bring it up. I hate feeling cramped and even worse hate being in front of someone who likes to “stomp” to get their horses ears up as it makes my horses ears go back when they are only 2-3 ft behind me. I also asked why we can’t set up profile to the audience to spectators can get a view of the show better…..they asked at the show and said the video set up couldn’t get exhibitors that way, but I hope it is brought up and thought about and possibly thought about for next year, as I think the videographer is capable of moving to a different location and still getting horses in shots.

I have always wondered why the halter horses were crammed in that direction at Nationals - when at AMHA Worlds they line up parallel to the long sides of the arena, using the entire width of the arena if need be and profile to most of the audience. And the videographer does not seem to have any trouble with that. More room for handlers and horses... and a better view for spectators as well.

So how did lining them up in those short, cramped rows start at Nationals?

Marty - I agree with your comments about the support bras!

There were a few exhibitors that needed some extra help there...

No drug testing at Nationals? I guess I just assumed there was - mainly because in past years (at Worlds) we spent far too long waiting for horses to provide a sample so we could get back to our stalls - and just assumed that was normal in the mini world...

 

[funnybunny]

[SIZE=8pt]About this topic, I was at Nationals, and there was some very inconsistent judging. If you looked at the sheets posted, you could see there was one judge who was "way out there." This skewed the placings, in my opinion.[/SIZE]

I do not think the problem is the professionals. The problem is the judges. Some are just not "educated" in minis. Perhaps those judges should be given a "rest" from judging. How do you do that?

Dog show exhibitors have several yahoo lists where judging is discussed, names are named, likes and dislikes are discussed. If a certain judge is a "face judge" or the judge doesn't appear to know the standards for the breed, they are named and discussed. This gives people an opportunity to look at a particular show and decide if it is a waste of money to show to that particular judge.

In this tough economic time, this is a good idea because it saves driving to the ends of the earth to show under a judge who will dump anyone who is not a big name or who will put up an inferior animal.

Is there a judges list like that for horse people?

F.B.

 

[ruffian]

I was there and watched many of the classes. Politics certainly was in play in most of the classes I watched. One judge in particular (and I did check the book) pretty much placed one trainer every time he brought a halter horse in the ring.

Another trainer had a horse rear up in line in driving, and fuss the whole time and still won that and many other classes. In only one class where they clearly didn't have a chance did they get the gate.

One of the judges didn't even watch the horses back in several classes, and in fact turned his card in before the class was completed.

Yes trainers do get their choice of horses. But they also take a few not so great horses to please a good client.

Erica really CAN pull off yellow, and looked beautiful in every class.

Had I been in some of the over classes I would have put the $100 up to protest a few horses. My friends mare is 37 1/2 and there were horses towering over them. But they wouldn't protest.

I guess I will be focusing on local/area shows for a few years. I know I won't bother going back to nationals unless there's changes made.