New Addition & Color Help Please ---> PICS added pg 4

[chandab]

Okay so I am hearing the following suggestions on her....

• silver buckskin pinto
  
• silver buckskin with dun factor pinto
  
• silver grulla
  
• smokey silver dapple
  
• silver dapple
  

So if I wanted to know FOR SURE what she was, I would get her tested but WHICH tests would be most valuable for learning her true color? Obviously I'm testing her for cream, silver and dun......but what else should I do?

To me she is obviously silver something, so unless you want to know whether she is homozygous for silver or not, I'd spend that money on another test. Since some are saying silver grulla (black-based no agouti), some are saying silver buckskin (black-based with agouti and cream), etc; I'd test for agouti to see if she has it or not, as that will include or exclude many color choices. [if you want to know if she's homozygous for black or not, then test Red Factor as well; if you don't care, then save your money.]

 

[Lewella]

Silver when combined with cream creates a "self colored" effect that doesn't look remotely "silver" in most cases. Your horse could be a textbook example of what happens when the two are combined. Chanda's horse that she posted is an EXCELLENT example of this as well. Your horse is OBVIOUSLY black based due to the dark points and dark ear rims. The ONLY way to get a black based horse this diluted in the mane and tail is with the silver gene or the champagne gene and this horse has no champagne characteristics. It has some form of Agouti or it WOULD NOT have darker points. Chanda's is a brown + cream + silver - look at the tonal shades of Chanda's horse - extremely similar in tones to yours.

I see nothing about this horse that indicates a dun dilution. Look at the legs, look at how DARK the points are with no indication of primatives and the complete lack of a dorsal. Cream, silver, red factor, and Agouti are what I would test for. The Agouti test through any lab except Pet DNA Services in Arizona won't tell you if her Agouti gene is a bay (A) or a brown (At) though.

 

[bluerogue]

This is the smokey silver dapple I mentioned. Cream does change how silver dapples look. This gelding was pretty much always has/had golden color... even when he had a "silver" effect coming through (which was usually only right after being clipped, or if he had been fed something to change color). He also had appy, but it didn't show until he was 3 years old (dam is a varnish roan appy, and he inherited it).

Dam is silver dapple varnish roan appy, sire is perlino.

Your girl reminds me of him, and the possibility of the genetics being there is possible, given the colors of sire and dam you posted. However, the only way to know for sure is to get your girl tested. She definitely has interesting color going on, and it is quite striking.

 

[Mareish Mom]

Looks just like my girl, a silver buckskin. JMHO.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

To me she is obviously silver something, so unless you want to know whether she is homozygous for silver or not, I'd spend that money on another test.

I know she's not homozygous for silver as she's produced a palomino, a bay and a buckskin - and none of them show any signs of silver whatsoever. So I believe I will save money on that test.

After looking through the pictures posted - she really doesn't look like a smokey silver dapple IMO. But I do agree that she has silver in her....whatever she is. I can't wait to get her home so I can test her! She will be here June 9th and I am already counting down the days!

BTW - from her producing a buckskin, a bay and a palomino (and I believe the sire of the three was her silver bay stud but I am getting her to confirm that today) what could we assume from her foals that she COULD be and what could we rule out for her color? I would assume that silver dapple would be ruled out since all of her foals are no where close to showing silver, which means she's hetero for silver right?

 

[eagles ring farm]

I can't begin to know as much as some off the other posters about color especially modifiers

but I love her color and she is a very pretty addition

 

[Lewella]

BTW - from her producing a buckskin, a bay and a palomino (and I believe the sire of the three was her silver bay stud but I am getting her to confirm that today) what could we assume from her foals that she COULD be and what could we rule out for her color? I would assume that silver dapple would be ruled out since all of her foals are no where close to showing silver, which means she's hetero for silver right?

A palomino would not show silver as it is a RED base color and Silver CANNOT express on red (palomino, chestnut, gold champagne). Silver ONLY dilutes BLACK pigment making it a range of shades from a light taupe to charcoal and everything in between. Yes, silvers come in MANY different shades.

I firmly believe your mare is a brown based buckskin. She is a lighter shade than Chanda's example but just like buckskins can range from buttermilk to dark so can brown buckskins with Chanda's being a darker example with the silver dilution.

Silver isn't a COLOR it is a DILUTION. Just like Cream is a dilution and Champagne is a dilution. Are all cream individuals cream colored? No. Are all Champagne individuals the color of champagne? No. Likewise all silver individuals are not silver in color. It is simply the name of the dilution.

 

[ohmt]

Tests to get:

Agouti

Since she produced a buckskin and palomino by a non cream carrier, you know she has cream already. She is obviously black based and only heterozygous since she produced a palomino.

You can test for silver, but i am still certain she has it so if it were me i wouldn't

 

[Hayley~Diaz]

Some kind of champagne??

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Is champagne possible for her at all? I wouldn't think so but I've never seen a champagne horse and wouldn't know what to look for?

 

[ohmt]

No champagne-just seems to be the go to for "different" colors.

 

[ohmt]

Exactly

 

[minimule]

No dorsal or leg barring eliminates any type of grulla or dun. Her face and legs look darker in the one pic which could mean a roan of some color. Silver Dapple (silver black) comes in a large variety of shades so it is possible she is a silver dapple variety. I have a grulla stallion that passes his dun gene to every foal. All duns or grullas have dorsal stripes and leg barring.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Okay here are a few head shots of her so you can see what she looks like in the shade. In the sun she is more of a golden color on her head as well.....any thoughts as to color now?

 

[ohmt]

Minimule-that is incorrect. We actually were unsure what color our silver red dun mare was for a long time because she exhibited no dun factors. In winter she did get a dorsal however, but we always attributed it to the shorter hair on her back compared to the rest. When shed out-nothing. Silver and cream could easily dull down the characteristics so much that little to none are presented.

In these new pictures i say no dun though. Her head is much too light. She actually looks like a typical silver black. Since she has to have cream, smokey silver black. Could still test for agouti to see if she is buckskin but i personally do not see agouti.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

Would a smoky silver black be able to produce a bay and palomino and buckskin?

 

[Tremor]

Would a smoky silver black be able to produce a bay and palomino and buckskin?

It depends on their agouti status. I have a cremello mare who we believe to not have the agouti gene (half brother doesn't either) because she has only produced Smokey blacks and palominos (add in the cream gene).

As far as I know the agouti gene is not involved in a black base. If it was it would be bay. However, breed that silver smokey black to a bay or a chestnut (or any red base) that may have the agouti gene then yes you have the chance of producing a buckskin or a bay.

With a Silver Smokey Black the agouti gene in the hypothetical offspring is brought in by the other horse (parent of the offspring.)

EDIT: I crossed some stuff out because I was typing while I was thinking about my own silver smokey black gelding who's dam does not have the agouti gene (even though she is a red base; ie. cremello) and the sire is a silver black (who would not have the agouti gene anyways. If he did he would have been Silver Bay.)

The agouti gene is not involved in the PLAIN black base but only the chestnut base and a black base WITH a bay modifier. (which I believe would be agouti) (Remember bay is not a base, but a modifier)

If I am incorrect in any of this then somebody please do correct me because this is how I understand the agouti gene. lol.

 

[mshasta88]

I owned a smokey silver on a black base before and she looked nothing like this I have also owned many champagnes. Silver can be very deceiving. Although cream and silver can sometimes mimic champagne, the pink skin still is too dark but it appears that we have all decided that she is defiantly silver on a heterozygous black base with a cream gene. It may help you to test for agouti. If she doesn’t have dorsal strip of any kind then it’s safe to throw out the dun theory.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

So she may not be a silver smokey black at all?

 

[ohmt]

Test for agouti-that will tell you if she is silver smokey black or silver buckskin.

Silver smokey blacks come in various shades, just like other colors.