New Filly Dwarf????

[ozymandias]

So here's a question to think about.

What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?

When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere

(including mine)

Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.

That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.

If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?

Just a thought?

 

[MountainWoman]

This is such a complex topic and I'm not experienced enough to give an opinion but something I've been thinking about lately is why doesn't the AMHA/R have a program like AKC with limited registration - meaning horses are sold as pets and if they do have offspring, they can't be registered. I know there would still be backyard breeders picking up mares to breed even if the offspring wouldn't be registered but maybe this would help? Maybe this would also help breeders in placing dwarf producing mares?

 

[Tremor]

So here's a question to think about.

What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?

When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere

(including mine)

Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.

That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.

If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?

Just a thought?

My minis don't have a single buckaroo bred horse in their pedigrees. Our stallion did however have Gold Melody Boy (only saying this because he's the closest related to Buckeroo himself)

 

[Lewella]

So here's a question to think about.

What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?

When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere

(including mine)

Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.

That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.

If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?

Just a thought?

Yes, breeding out once a test is available will take a LONG time. The HYPP test became available 20 years ago and AQHA is still in the process of breeding it out.

If you cross a carrier of a genetic defect to a non-carrier you have a 50% chance of producing a carrier. Carrier x Carrier will produce 50% carrier/25% afflicted/25% non-carrier. The first step in breeding out is eliminating the individuals that are homozygous for the genetic defect - both registries have already done this by prohibiting dwarfs from registration. The second step is ensuring carriers aren't bred to carriers and unfortunately we cannot do that until we have a test. The final step is prohibiting carriers and that will be many, many years in the future (40 years after testing becomes available would not be an unreasonable time frame).

I personally don't think dwarfism is quite as rampant in the breed as some think. There has been a lot of voluntary culling of known carriers from breeding programs and every time one of those carriers is removed from the gene pool the potential number of future carriers is decreased. The general breeding populous also doesn't practice line breeding which in turn also reduces the number of potential dwarf carriers from lines that were known to have a dwarf ancestor in their pedigree. I know some gripe about the addition of American Shetland blood to the gene pool but when it comes to the dwarf issue it is a good thing as the American Shetland gene pool is not known to have dwarfism. So, known carriers have been culled, known non-carriers have been added, and through this the potential for dwarfs has decreased over time. I think we could all be very pleasantly surprised when a test becomes available by a lower than anticipated percentage of carriers.

 

[tagalong]

Well, I'll go out on a limb... I saw this horse in person many times. The first time I saw him, I was horrified that he was a breeding stallion - that was many years ago now. Komoko's Little Husseler (26 1/2") was IMO a dwarf - not severely affected but a dwarf all the same. His "pug" face, the clubby feet... these old photos actually look much better than the times I saw him.

Another stallion blast from the past.. Dell Tera's Lord of the Isles... 29"

0

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

This horse produced at least one dwarf foal. I owned him at the time. He previously had produced one non-dwarf foal for me, but that foal did not make it out of the sac. I now fully believe he had produced dwarf foals prior to me buying him, but they were hushed up, hidden, euthanized, something. He was purchased by me to be my herdsire. I paid a lot of money for him, I also paid to have him shown by a trainer, promotional ads in MHW, professional pictures, etc. He was gelded about 2 weeks after producing the dwarf filly in the pic below. He is now a champion show horse for a small child. They were the hi-point team for their entire state in 2011 and he's back out showing this year. While with me he was 4X World/National top ten, was the AMHR Area III Show Reserve Champion Senior Stallion, and earned many grands.

A link to the thread from his siring of this filly to his gelding is here:

http://www.miniature...1

I had supporters for what I did, but I also had a lot of detractors. Many people emailed me, PMd me, etc., and said I was overreacting, etc. They said I could just not repeat the breeding, avoid known carriers, etc. I needed to do what I thought was right. I still think it was the right thing to do.

I was told in an email by John Eberth that this was the first son/daughter of Sids Husker known to have produced a dwarf. Maybe Corona got his gene from his dam? Who knows.

Here are some pics of Corona:









Here is Corona's dwarf filly. She lived about 18 hours. She was, confirmed via blood test, a type 1 and type 3 dwarf. One type came from Corona, one from her dam.



The dam of this filly was sired by a WC son of one of the most famous sires in our breed's history. Of course, she could have gotten her gene from her dam also. We will never know.

Edited to add: the dam was a maiden and had a VERY difficult time during the birth. The extreme size of the foal's head made it a very tight fit. The mare was treated by a vet and the owners knew they'd never breed her again. But she was very special to them, so they intended to keep her as a pet. After the birth, she never was the same. Prior to having this foal, she was a spunky, pushy little mare that always needed to be on a diet. After the foal, she never regained her spirit. Her owners had her treated constantly for everything they could think of. She eventually died a few months later. She never recovered from the truama of the birth.

 

[targetsmom]

I am only asking because I want to learn more about dwarfs... as I think most people reading this thread do. I do not see much similarity between this foal and the one that started this thread. Did this filly have some obvious health issues that led you to think "dwarf"??? Sorry if this was in the original thread, but I think it would be educational to have it here.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I am only asking because I want to learn more about dwarfs... as I think most people reading this thread do. I do not see much similarity between this foal and the one that started this thread. Did this filly have some obvious health issues that led you to think "dwarf"??? Sorry if this was in the original thread, but I think it would be educational to have it here.

Mary, are you referring to the filly I just posted???

 

[Lizzie]

Parmela, I applaud you for gelding this obviously lovely boy.

I have a question. You say your filly was blood-tested to show she carried two types of dwarfism. Can this test only be done on obviously live dwarfs? Seems to me, that if they could test the filly, then they could test those who carry dwarfism but show no signs of it.

Lizzie

 

[Tremor]

Parmela, I applaud you for gelding this obviously lovely boy.

I have a question. You say your filly was blood-tested to show she carried two types of dwarfism. Can this test only be done on obviously live dwarfs? Seems to me, that if they could test the filly, then they could test those who carry dwarfism but show no signs of it.

Lizzie

I'm going to assume that she donated the corpse of the filly since she had passed at 18 hours and sent in blood samples of the parents.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[targetsmom]

Sorry, I am still sleep deprived!! Yes, I was referring to the filly that Parmela just posted the photo of. I remember the story and applauded your tough decision to geld your lovely boy. But I don't see how you immediately figured she was a dwarf unless there was something going on with her health?? She looks to me like she had a nice length of leg and neck, was well proportioned, but maybe something I am not seeing in the photo????? I am also curious about the tests that confirmed the types.

I think this entire thread has been a wealth of information and thank everyone who has posted!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Yes, the owners of the filly graciously donated the corpse and also drew blood from the mare. i also had Corona's blood drawn and it was also sent to John.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Kudos to the OP for her powers of observation, and for starting this discussion, IMO one of the best so far on this subject on LB(and I 've been here since early '99.)

I have always felt as Lewella expresses...that there is likely not NEARLY as 'high' a % of dwarf carriers in the mini horse population as many think.

I am pleased to believe that there are a good number of us who indeed HAVE voluntarily self-culled-removing both parents as completely as we are able from the breeding population as soon as they produced a dwarf.( In retrospect, I probably should have gelded my stallion that sired a dwarf, but at the time, money was short,I had NO need of a small(29"+) halter gelding, albeit a very nice one- and I did the best I could under the circumstances. To follow Parmela's admirable example and be totally 'up-front'...the sire of the dwarf bred and born here was a horse registered as "Sugar Creek Tap Dance" AMHA; I did not buy him from the farm whose prefix he carried, but from another well-known W. Coast farm who'd bought him to sell(I presume that, anyway), at about a year and a half, with a written 'guarantee about his still undescended second testicle(I would not do that again, but that is a separate issue.)the dam was registered AMHA as "Jess Poppis Nite Sprite", also bred by me. Her dam and sire were half-siblings, both owned by me when bred, and both sired by "SLJ Mighty Mouse", AMHA, who was Dell Tera breeding top and bottom. I would not do that kind of breeding again, BTW. Good news is that the stallion only sired two foals here...the dwarf and a pretty pinto filly, whom I also gave away to the boys/girls ranch, along w/ the mare who produced the dwarf, w/ full disclosure. The possibility of another dwarf from either parent HERE ended, totally, and I have only hoped that none of the relatively few offspring of the dwarf's maternal grandsire were bred, or at least, not 'heavily'; the maternal granddam only produced one other filly, an 'oversize' who has been a tremenously talented driving mare, ADS-style, all her working life, and was NEVER bred . Male offspring were all gelded, never bred.

BTW... These are FACTS; I was present, handled the breeding myself, was present at all births.

Margo

 

[Lizzie]

I'm a little 'thick' today, Parmela. So are you saying that there is indeed a blood test for this, maybe even though it is not available for the general population? If somebody confirmed dwarfism via the blood test done on your filly, then there must be a test for it, or am I way off in my thinking?

I had spoken to the people at UC Davis a while back and they told me they are not doing any research on dwarfism and foresee no research in the future. Not surprising really, since many problems which plague horses, is now not being funded.

Lizzie

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am also in the "not as high a % as thought" bracket. I think a lot of the "minimal" dwarfism we see can be put down to plain old fashioned rotten conformation. I also think the dwarfism "gene" is going to be another difficult one, I don't think it is as easy as just identifying it- we thought that with Sabino, remember, and it was also thought to be "that simple" with Splash, too, but it seems it is not. If Dwarfism is polygenic we are going to have an Everest of a problem, so let's just hope it isn't.

I see hope in the future mainly because a lot of people do cull, and will go on culling. So, just as with PRA in all the Collie breeds (Yes, Shelties are a Collie breed!) most breeders would just not use a GoClear, let alone an affected, from day one, but the test was simple and affordable- I can actually not see the registries doing anything, they do not listen to what we want as it is, why should anything change- maybe the QH registry has a different voting system, you know, one that is fair?? I don't think the Pinto registry ever said you could not breed two LWO together- I may be wrong on that ?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Yes Lizzie, there are tests that even after so many years of development are used but not available to the public. My vet and the vet working on the mare obtained and mailed blood per John's instructions to John. The expired foal was dug up from her grave, packaged per his instructions and also mailed to him. He later emailed me the results. IIRC, Corona was the type I carrier and the mare was type III.

 

[Tremor]

Yes Lizzie, there are tests that even after so many years of development are used but not available to the public. My vet and the vet working on the mare obtained and mailed blood per John's instructions to John. The expired foal was dug up from her grave, packaged per his instructions and also mailed to him. He later emailed me the results. IIRC, Corona was the type I carrier and the mare was type III.

Not going to lie. That really kind of ticks me off. If he could somehow make it public he could create enough profit to fund research for dwarfism.

Is he still taking donations?

 

[targetsmom]

I am getting more confused.. If Corona was Type 1 and the mare was type 3, what was the dwarf??? This indicates that the sire and dam don't have to carry the same type of dwarf genes in order to produce a dwarf. I do think someone else mentioned that earlier in this thread but without an example of it actually happening. This is getting more and more educational all the time.

And Jane, in answer to your question about Pinto and LWO testing - I have never seen LWO or lethal white or even "frame" referred to on the registration application. There are three check boxes: tobiano, overo and solid. (Remember, I am only the messenger!). So clearly Pinto has no rules about LWO.

 

[Lizzie]

Thanks for the info Parmela. I would think then, with this knowledge, John should easily be able to secure a grant, for further evaluation on the problem. Grants are given out for all sorts of ridiculous research these days. One for the study of dwarfism, would be in my mind, very important. This especially since the big guns are not funding it.

Targetsmom.

I thought the correct term for 'frame', is Frame Overo. However, not all Overos are frame obviously.

Lizzie

 

[targetsmom]

Lizzie-

I don't want to sidetrack this great thread to talk about pinto patterns but "overo" includes frame and splash patterns (per Pinto) and as such, is not especially useful. "Frame overo" and lethal white overo are the same pattern.