New Filly Dwarf????

[StarRidgeAcres]

I really have to give the OP credit for being new to minis and recognizing right away that this foal is a dwarf. I know personally of some people that have been in the business for 11-12 years and have no idea that some of their foals are dwarfs. They show photos of them and say how beautiful they are and that they intend to repeat the breeding. And don't try telling them that they are a dwarf, they don't want to hear it. So, honestly, kudos to you for recognizing this and going further to educate yourself on it. I am so sorry that this happened to you. It is a risk that we all run when breeding the minis.

Well said! Yes, kudos to the OP!!! And yes, many long-time breeders either don't recognize it or just don't want to recognize it and continue to breed known carriers. It's sad really.

 

[chandab]

I had one tell me that they bred a Tobiano to a Tobiano and got a pure white foal. She said she had it for a couple of weeks and then put it down because it must be a lethal white.

OMG! I thought with LWO homozygous foals that they went downhill within just a couple days, tops; not weeks (and it sounds like that foal was healthy, they just assumed, so took extreme action).

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Unfortunately, many dwarfs were used over the years in the Miniature horse breeding program. I know some very famous ones. One I actually saw in person and was really surprised as he was so popular. Remember, there was a time when breeding small to small was all that was done and most desirable. There are many minimal dwarfs with only some of the dwarf traits. Most people do not know what a dwarf looks like, thus this page and the Einstein page. Even many Mini breeders can not agree what is a dwarf.

My point was that it is irrelevant how many dwarfs were used. They did NOT reduce the size of the horses. The thing that reduced the size was breeding selectively for a specific, ie lack of size (it would have helped if the original breeders had also added conformation to the list but you cannot have everything- it would have been nice if they had not attempted short cuts via dwarfs, but they did) The number of dwarfs used is well documented and it is pretty much pointless to keep bringing it up (except in an educational setting of course, people do need to know) what is the problem is the number of dwarf carriers being used now.

Apart from it being inherited in a similar, possibly the same, way, there is not really any other similarity between LWO and Dwarfism. Dwarfism is totally not needed and not wanted and completely undesirable. LWO is innocuous so long as people with a + stallion refuse to breed untested mares, and carries a pretty pattern which, in h/Z form is completely harmless. We do not understand dwarfism yet-I have a sneaky feeling it may actually be more complicated than we have thought. We see far too many animals that we label "minimal" (as in minimally affected) and I am just wondering how they are going to test. It may well be that it is straightforward, and I hope it is, but ,well, we just do not know....

 

[ozymandias]

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

 

[Mona]

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

Who said this??? Maybe I missed something??

 

[Mona]

OMG! I thought with LWO homozygous foals that they went downhill within just a couple days, tops; not weeks (and it sounds like that foal was healthy, they just assumed, so took extreme action).

That's what I took from it too Chanda...so sad.

 

[ozymandias]

Who said this??? Maybe I missed something??

Who said what? That people don't want to tell anyone which barns are producing them today? That's apparantly obvious from the dozens of replies in this thread telling us " I know of this well known...or I know of that well known.." with no names mentioned. Oh also, my post was a little confusing I wasn't asking to see pics of the dwarfs these places are producing today. I meant who were the foundation dwarfs bred into the breed years ago (other than Tiny Tim

). But I guess that's a pointless thing to know anyhow as 25% of those horses produced by a dwarf would be genetically perfect as far as having the dwarf gene. You could have, theoretically, 4 full siblings from a known dwarf and one line would not or could not produce dwarfs but without a test you wouldn't know which of the 4 it would be.

 

[Mona]

LOL!! SORRY! I misread what you wrote. I *THOUGHT* you wrote:

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs but now we can't post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

instead of:

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

 

[ohmt]

No, ozy-a dwarf ALWAYS passes on a dwarf gene to its foals so in that scenerio they would all 4 have at least 1 dwarf gene to pass on to future foals. It's if you breed two carriers together that 25% theoretically should receive no dwarf genes, 50% carriers, and 25% receive 2 being dwarves themselves.

 

[ozymandias]

LOL!! SORRY! I misread what you wrote. I *THOUGHT* you wrote:

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs but now we can't post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

instead of:

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

This is getting more confusing by the post LOL

When it boils down to it no one wants to produce a dwarf intentionally (I hope!) Eradicating dwarfism from our breed is going to be quite an easy task once a test is available especially if we can get the backing of the registries like requiring the test to register a horse. Just because a horse is a carrier does not mean the end of it's breeding life all you have to do is ensure the animal you're breeding it to is not a carrier. As this is a takes two to tango combination then a few simple precautions will bring this issue to a dead stop. So many people are fearful that their prize mares and stallions will no longer be viable breeding options but that's not the case at all. You just have to breed to a non carrier. In fact if I was a breeding farm I'd proudly announce my horses are dwarf gene tested. We're not going to loose our gene pool. We're not going to loose any already being bred mares or stallions. We can just make sure with a simple test that we're breeding the right combination together.

 

[REO]

Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.

No, my meaning was, that even if the carriers were known through testing, I still would not agree with them being used in breeding. My meaning was, that LWO is a pinto pattern and is IMO fine to use IF bred to a tested non carrier. But that breeding a tested non dwarf carrier non carrier to a tested dwarf carrier to ME was still not a good thing. So that is why I was saying that to ME LWO and dwarf testing wasn't the same.

I know what Riverdance was saying. Nothing wrong with what she said

I wasn't trying to pick on her, only use what she said to exand on what my different thoughts were. Sorry.

I was not misunderstanding and I was not arguing with her

But I was saying my thoughts which were different than hers.

No biggie

I'm done!

 

[ozymandias]

No, my meaning was, that even if the carriers were known through testing, I still would not agree with them being used in breeding. My meaning was, that LWO is a pinto pattern and is IMO fine to use IF bred to a tested non carrier. But that breeding a tested non dwarf carrier non carrier to a tested dwarf carrier to ME was still not a good thing. So that is why I was saying that to ME LWO and dwarf testing wasn't the same.

Can I ask you why you think it's different?

Carrying the gene does not make them a dwarf. You'd never know from looking at some of these horses that they are carriers...some are, as people have pointed out, so well conformed that they are National Champions and unless bred to another carrier they will never, ever produce a dwarf no matter how many times they are bred. There are thousands of genetically recessive health issues carried by people too but unless both partners both carry the same recessive gene they will never give birth to an offspring with that disease/illness.

I view myself as a very ethical person but I see no harm whatsoever in breeding a recessive gene carrier (for whatever trait we're talking about) as long as you don't breed it to another.

 

[ohmt]

To me it's different because a recessive dwarf gene still has the ability to "fight" the dominant gene and create dwarf characteristics. It's funny, there are some on here who got extremely upset with me on a previous Einstein thread for saying he was not a dwarf but that I thought he might be a carrier with a recessive gene creating a few characteristics. They said (and in caps, so I'm assuming yelled it) that any carrier with a recessive dwarf gene that presents a dwarf characteristic or two ARE dwarves. And yet, on here they have expressed that they are fine with breeding carriers (not talking about you ozy). It's....interesting.

Also, with so many people that breed (as has been shown by various polls on here) and so many people new to miniatures that breed before they are knowledgeable about doing so, it would be easy for dwarves to keep being produced even when there are tests. Everyone complains about the market and how we should all cut back on breeding, but there is so much opposition to culling dwarf gene carriers from the breeding population and I'm not quite sure why.

 

[horsehug]

Ozymandias, I just wanted to say after years of learning about this from, and discussing this with, some of the most knowledgable people about it who have raised minis for decades and either studied it many years in the lab or many years in experience, I agree with you.

Susan O.

 

[ohmt]

Ah shucks, Susan, we disagree on something!

I think I would be ok with it if the testing was mandatory for registration and was put onto registration papers, but I just don't think that would ever happen, unfortunately.

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

well since I am guessing the minis must have all came from breeding down to smaller minis is it not possible that most might carry the gene some where's down the line? if lets say my mare is bred to a stallion and produces a nice foal perfect in conformation then take her and breed to a stallion and again produces a perfect foal does the gene not breed out?? I am not sure how it works so just asking I know with dogs if a dog is from a ***** that has produced a longcoat some will carry the gene and some will not and bred to another carrier will likely produce a longcoat but of the puppy that is not a carrier (they have testing) bred to another that is not a carrier and one that is will not produce a longcoat is this not the same with dwarfs carriers?

 

[Mona]

Whether it's forced by the registries or not (which I would hope it will be, but likely not) having the testing available will in effect, I believe, for the most part, force SERIOUS breeders into testing their horses and breeding selectively, if they choose to breed. I think that most people looking to buy, will find it a VERY important criteria in deciding which horse and which farm to buy from. I doubt many, if any serious breeders will want to buy horses that have come from untested parents, and that have been ested themselves. Having the test available will hopefully squeeze out those that choose not to test their stock, once they reallize thy cannot seel them without being tested due to no/very limited public interest in them.

 

[Mona]

well since I am guessing the minis must have all came from breeding down to smaller minis is it not possible that most might carry the gene some where's down the line? if lets say my mare is bred to a stallion and produces a nice foal perfect in conformation then take her and breed to a stallion and again produces a perfect foal does the gene not breed out?? I am not sure how it works so just asking I know with dogs if a dog is from a ***** that has produced a longcoat some will carry the gene and some will not and bred to another carrier will likely produce a longcoat but of the puppy that is not a carrier (they have testing) bred to another that is not a carrier and one that is will not produce a longcoat is this not the same with dwarfs carriers?

Not really...it's a crap shoot really. Without have the test, there is no way to know who carries and who doesn't. It is often impossible to know if a horse carries it by looks alone. This is why the testing is so important. An excellent stallion example of the breed, can be bred to a mare with as good conformation, and can produce a dwarf. They may produce 10 perfectly beautiful, top winning foals the first 10 times they are bred together, and then suddenly, POOF, there is the dwarf. And that is only ONE mare, and 9 previous foals out there, now added to the gene pool. Then if that same stallion covered hundreds of mares over the years, just think of what may be out there. They say a 25% chance of them throwing a dwarf foal, o statistically, out of every hundered, 25 should be born, BUT, that does not always work in order of the numbers the way they come. They could produce 300 foals and have a far smaller number of dwarfs produced...it's all a matter of who they are bred to, and how they "click" when bred together. Like I said, I total crap shoot without the testing available. (other than weeding out the known producers right off the bat)

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

I agree with you Mona and had they had that testing for this mare I would not have boughten her and hope they do come out with a test I for one don't want to breed problems who really ever wants problems but hate the thought that I bought this mare at my expense and have to pet her out

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

opps hit enter too fast the sire of my foal carries the gene and I am sure it won't be his last foal so why is it that my girl should be a pet as long as I deal with the out come like this baby she's here to stay