Newbies WAKE UP

[StarRidgeAcres]

If you have to haul your horses to an auction every year to indiscriminately dump them because you have no room for the new ones due and they are not selling at all, then I would say perhaps it's time to think about what or how many you are producing.

I agree. I think that is exactly what the topic is about. If you're selling your foals and you are happy with the homes they go to, the price you receive, etc., then by all means do as you wish. But if you aren't getting what you'd hoped, you're selling to anyone who has cash with no regard for the quality of the home, then you are not, imo, doing yourself or the horses any justice. And maybe you should re-think what you're doing - for your own good. Having too many horses is stressful, costly, and one astronomical vet bill can do your entire year's budget in.

I had one foal coming this year. It didn't make it. The mare almost didn't make it. That one event was a VERY expensive tragedy. It was also emotionally draining and that has a cost too. Do I miss having a little one to play with? You bet! I had a lot of hopes and dreams for that baby that will not never be realized, but at the same time I'm kind of glad I don't have anymore coming this year as that one experience was enough for me for now.

Am I already scared to death about the one (possible) foal I have planned for 2012? You bet!

As has been said a thousand times on here, breeding is not for the faint of heart or for a thin pocketbook.

 

[stormy]

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...everyone, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...everyone, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!

I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:

Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....

If you are going to cut back on breeding - meaning the number of foals you have the following year, then from a financial outlay of costs, you should sell the number of mares you are not breeding. WHY??

a) because that mare still costs the same dollar amount to maintain the entire year ..... feed, hay, supplements, wormer, vaccines, farrier and supplies, electric to run water barrels, barn lights, fencing repairs etc. Anyone ever sat down and determined per horse what your annual cost is?

b) Everyone talks about you can't get rich - NO but you can with a well thought out program recoup some your expenses by selling the foal. A breeder once said if you can at least cover the majority of your expenses, you are successful.

c) so to continue on that thought ........ if I don't have a foal to offer for sale, then I have spent all that money on that mare to get nothing in return. Those foals I keep - well the ones I don't keep hopefully bring a good price to offset the expense of the mare who's foal I did keep. And that foal later becomes part of the program so she's an asset that I did not have to outlay cash to purchase elsewhere.

d) problem I see with selling the mares you don't plan to breed is two-fold:

1) not all your mares you breed will settle. You don't know that beforehand and possibly you sell a few and the ones you do breed, only half take?

2) when the market does come back around - as you say "take a year off" ... then what? You have to go out and buy more mares cause you have sold yours?

3) and you may end up paying more for the new mare in the new economy than what you got for her sale in the old economy.

Perhaps this didn't all come out right - and the darn thing posted before I was done - so now I'm editting - hopefully you'll come back to read the finished product. LOL

 

[Riverrose28]

I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:

Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....

If you are going to cut back on breeding - meaning the number of foals you have the following year, then from a financial outlay of costs, you should sell the number of mares you are not breeding. WHY??

a) because that mare still costs the same dollar amount to maintain the entire year ..... feed, hay, supplements, wormer, vaccines, farrier and supplies, electric to run water barrels, barn lights, fencing repairs etc. Anyone ever sat down and determined per horse what your annual cost is?

b) Everyone talks about you can't get rich - NO but you can with a well thought out program recoup some your expenses by selling the foal. A breeder once said if you can at least cover the majority of your expenses, you are successful.

c) so to continue on that thought ........ if I don't have a foal to offer for sale, then I have spent all that money on that mare to get nothing in return. Those foals I keep - well the ones I don't keep hopefully bring a good price to offset the expense of the mare who's foal I did keep. And that foal later becomes part of the program so she's an asset that I did not have to outlay cash to purchase elsewhere.

d) problem I see with selling the mares you don't plan to breed is two-fold:

1) not all your mares you breed will settle. You don't know that beforehand and possibly you sell a few and the ones you do breed, only half take?

2) when the market does come back around - as you say "take a year off" ... then what? You have to go out and buy more mares cause you have sold yours?

3) and you may end up paying more for the new mare in the new economy than what you got for her sale in the old economy.

Perhaps this didn't all come out right - and the darn thing posted before I was done - so now I'm editting - hopefully you'll come back to read the finished product. LOL

White tail, I agree with you 100%, We have figured out how much it cost to hold on to and maintain our mares and stallions, without a return on our money. As such we are taking action, as I'm sure some others will as well. Plus our hay farmer just passed, and the hay fields are being sold, probably to a developer and sub divided. Hay will be costly this year.

 

[Riverdance]

Whitetails...I would not feel that this topic is directed towards you, or any specific person or farm. We all know that there are too many Minis out there that people do not want. Most of us as breeders, are trying to improve our program and hopefully show a few of the new foals when they are yearlings. But, when we have more foals then we can possibly show, we have to start taking a second look at what we are doing. Yes, many a planned foal does not turn out to be what we hoped , and we all know that we can breed 10 mares and only have 5 foals. But we all need to cut back if there is any hope to see the Mini market pick up again.

This topic is not going to stop me from breeding, nor is it going to stop me from posting pictures of my foals, but hopefully this topic will make every breeder stop and think.

We all look forward to seeing pictures of the new foals and no one is going to judge you if you show them. I for one, am looking forward to seeing them.

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

Please allow me to reiterate - that my above post was the outcome of discussions that GOES ON IN MY HOUSE ON MY FARM WITH OUR FAMILY DISCUSSIONS regarding this business. It is not intented as instructions or recommendations to anyone else or exactly how I feel either. It's simply how we look at it.

My hubby has always been the backbone of this operation, both labor wise and financially. He's got the final say (always has for 34 years LOL). The above post is his way of looking at things from a business standpoint of bottom line dollar and is from the perspective of the number of horses we have at this time. I do understand its very different with only a handful of horses.

Lord knows we love the horses and enjoy them and its a full blown family affair here. BUT, its definitely hard work and 24/7 (which we do ontop of our full time jobs) - so if we were not making some income from them, all of them wouldn't be here. All I would need is one for each grandchild and enjoy life at the beach here and there LOL and be able to throw those crappy ol coveralls away LOL

 

[MindyLee]

I dont breed every yr and no big deal if I have a foal or not. The $$$ I get from a foal sure dose happen to help when I need it the most tho.

I can say I agree with WhiteTail as well. I thought of selling 3 of my most expencive and pedigreed minis. Then I think, their not only here to be bred, but part of my mini horse family. Also, I would never ever get a chance again EVER to get them kind of nice minis again. My stallion Sentra, He's a double bred King Supreme son with killer confirmation and movement! I would never get another oppertunity to own such a great horse and whos a piece of history. So he stays even if I dont get hardly any foals or any from him. The only foal I got I kept cause she's my baby girl and she's not breedable (or in my eyes) cause she only 27 inchs tall and too ultra refined and weights in about 150 lbs at 2 yrs old. oh and did I say she's my baby girl lol.

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

Whitetails...I would not feel that this topic is directed towards you, or any specific person or farm. We all know that there are too many Minis out there that people do not want. Most of us as breeders, are trying to improve our program and hopefully show a few of the new foals when they are yearlings. But, when we have more foals then we can possibly show, we have to start taking a second look at what we are doing. Yes, many a planned foal does not turn out to be what we hoped , and we all know that we can breed 10 mares and only have 5 foals. But we all need to cut back if there is any hope to see the Mini market pick up again.

This topic is not going to stop me from breeding, nor is it going to stop me from posting pictures of my foals, but hopefully this topic will make every breeder stop and think.

We all look forward to seeing pictures of the new foals and no one is going to judge you if you show them. I for one, am looking forward to seeing them.

Thank you - and no, I didn't take it personally or thought it was directed to me. Not at all. But I am still breeding and I am having more than a handful of foals .......so I do fit the category in which some comments are made. I have not seen any finger pointing at all and see it as general statements (which is good).

 

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:

Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....

If you are going to cut back on breeding - meaning the number of foals you have the following year, then from a financial outlay of costs, you should sell the number of mares you are not breeding. WHY??

a) because that mare still costs the same dollar amount to maintain the entire year ..... feed, hay, supplements, wormer, vaccines, farrier and supplies, electric to run water barrels, barn lights, fencing repairs etc. Anyone ever sat down and determined per horse what your annual cost is?

b) Everyone talks about you can't get rich - NO but you can with a well thought out program recoup some your expenses by selling the foal. A breeder once said if you can at least cover the majority of your expenses, you are successful.

c) so to continue on that thought ........ if I don't have a foal to offer for sale, then I have spent all that money on that mare to get nothing in return. Those foals I keep - well the ones I don't keep hopefully bring a good price to offset the expense of the mare who's foal I did keep. And that foal later becomes part of the program so she's an asset that I did not have to outlay cash to purchase elsewhere.

d) problem I see with selling the mares you don't plan to breed is two-fold:

1) not all your mares you breed will settle. You don't know that beforehand and possibly you sell a few and the ones you do breed, only half take?

2) when the market does come back around - as you say "take a year off" ... then what? You have to go out and buy more mares cause you have sold yours?

3) and you may end up paying more for the new mare in the new economy than what you got for her sale in the old economy.

Perhaps this didn't all come out right - and the darn thing posted before I was done - so now I'm editting - hopefully you'll come back to read the finished product. LOL

Finished product???? sounds perfect to me!!!!! I ditto everything you just typed!!!!!!!! Except i will add a bit of my own.

I agressively try to get EVERY mare i have in foal. around 30 at any given time, give or take a few. I will loose a certain amount due to Mother Nature claiming her own. I will loose one or two(foals) due to dystocias of some type(even though we have them on cameras and giveing them the best monitoring i can do). Some of the foals in spite of good parents are just not the quality i feel they should be, and are sold or given away as pets. A few of the foals will be spectacular! and will fetch a high price even in this economy, and those are the ones that will keep me a float. You never know which mare that wonderful foal will come out of either, so guess what? the more mares i have in foal, the better my odds. I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can. I look at this as a business that i enjoy and i am very good at, as i have turned a profit for the past 3 years. We guarentee all foals at our farm to DNA test and parent qualify. If i leave a mare off the stallion report i pay for it, if something does not parent qualify,(this has never happened)we refund the purchase price, and shipping if any was involved. I take pride in my horses, and feel they are some of the nicer ones. I am proud of my breeding program, and work very hard to maintain a high standard. I am a PROUD breeder of the Miniature Horse. I will continue to breed, foal out, and sell Miniature horse foals from my farm! Julie@ Lil Hoofbeats Loud & Clear!!!

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

Finished product???? sounds perfect to me!!!!! I ditto everything you just typed!!!!!!!! Except i will add a bit of my own.

I agressively try to get EVERY mare i have in foal. around 30 at any given time, give or take a few. I will loose a certain amount due to Mother Nature claiming her own. I will loose one or two(foals) due to dystocias of some type(even though we have them on cameras and giveing them the best monitoring i can do). Some of the foals in spite of good parents are just not the quality i feel they should be, and are sold or given away as pets. A few of the foals will be spectacular! and will fetch a high price even in this economy, and those are the ones that will keep me a float. You never know which mare that wonderful foal will come out of either, so guess what? the more mares i have in foal, the better my odds. I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can. I look at this as a business that i enjoy and i am very good at, as i have turned a profit for the past 3 years. We guarentee all foals at our farm to DNA test and parent qualify. If i leave a mare off the stallion report i pay for it, if something does not parent qualify,(this has never happened)we refund the purchase price, and shipping if any was involved. I take pride in my horses, and feel they are some of the nicer ones. I am proud of my breeding program, and work very hard to maintain a high standard. I am a PROUD breeder of the Miniature Horse. I will continue to breed, foal out, and sell Miniature horse foals from my farm! Julie@ Lil Hoofbeats Loud & Clear!!!

Thank you Julie - perfectly put! Now is when I'd really love to see that "LIKE" button!

Kudos to you for your openess and honesty and sticking by your guns. Nice to know we're not alone - thank you for that.

 

[susanne]

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...everyone, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!

This.

Thank you, Stormy.

.

 

[midnight star stables]

I find some of these posts rather upsetting. From the view of a person who loves their miniatures, and can accept that they could be a "business" I really dislike hearing about pony "puppy-mills" - irregardless of WHO it is. Making a busniess out of your farm does NOT mean breeding 10, 20, 30, 100 foals a year!

I look at my horse and see a horse. Not an OVEN!

I'll happily keep a mare if I like her for who she is, not what she can give me.

And if she can't foal, that's okay too - to me.

KayKay is a breeder I look at who runs her farm like a business, not a pony-mill. There are other huge name breeders out there who's programs I love, many produce huge numbers of foals each year. That said if you look at their herds have many open mares each year. They might have 20 foals in a year, but 40 mares in their herd. These are large scale breeders whom I admire.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I feel it is sad that so many owners of minis, dogs, cats, etc., breed just for the profit they hope to see.

Flame suite on.

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...everyone, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!

Stormy, I agree. This is how I feel about this whole topic, summarized nicely.

This thread come up every year. It is not truly directed at "Newbies" so please don't take offence to the reference in which it was used.

 

[dixie_belle]

I have read the comments on this thread with interest. I must admit to being a "newbie". I am very much still in the learning stages....only had my boys for 5 years now. I wonder is there ever a time when a person can honestly say they know everything?? So, in some ways, we may all still have a little bit of "newbie" in us.

But here is my major comment. I have to wonder if this thread would be happening at all if prices were not down. Whether it is due to the economy or over breading does not matter at this point. If prices were high, would everyone out there be breeding, willy nilly? I fear so. Simply because it would then be worth while to do so. I do not breed. I will never breed any of my mini horses. I simply do not know enough about confirmation, nor do I care to. I have pets. I do not breed pets...not my horses, my cats or my dogs. Even my chickens are all of the same sex (I think).

So where do we go from here? Well, if we want prices to increase we, as owners, must curb breeding. There is no other option. Anyone who has ever bred pet quality horses and who wants to know who is to fault for inferior horses/poor prices, go look in the mirror. I have seen the fate of too many of these "pet quality" horses. I have taken in one of these myself, as a rescue. Would I sell him for a million dollars.....NEVER. Is he worth a plug nickel......NEVER. We, the mini owners, have done this to overselves.

 

[RhineStone]

I, for one, don't read the Foal Announcements. I would be one of those that would look at a mare and say to myself, "Why did they breed that? She's short in the croup, tall in the hip, and cowhocked." etc. I don't want to put myself through that, no matter how "cute" the foals are. I don't think any of my mares are worth breeding (I wish I had another one or two of my show gelding, though!

)

I wish a whole lot more people would give up the "pedigree & barn blindness", and truly evaluate their stock before reproducing them. The quality of the breed overall would go up, the sheer numbers would go down, and the value of the individual animals would increase.

 

[ohmt]

I definitely agree with you midnight star! We have 35 minis here and we only breed for a few foals a year (this year expecting 8, but this is our last year having more than 2) because I believe that mares need a break. I can't imagine having to nourish/carry, nurse, and raise a foal year after year, but I guess that's just me. We have no problems selling fillies/mares, but have seen a large decline in colt interest. We are gelding and training as much as possible and trying to sell them to good youth homes as the youth are our future and what a better way to get them started than a great gelding, right?

I don't mind breeders having more than a few foals a year. What matters to me is that they are responsible about it. There are many things that go along with that, but I won't get into that. It's the breeders that create a bunch of foals and then sell them for super low prices and/or push them through auctions that hurt the economy.

*Rhinestone-I agree with you too. WAY too many people put too much of an emphasis on pedigree and color instead of conformation. They should just be icing on the cake.

 

[Tab]

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...everyone, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!

Yes!

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

I look at my horse and see a horse. Not an OVEN!

I'll happily keep a mare if I like her for who she is, not what she can give me.

And if she can't foal, that's okay too - to me.

I totally agree. horses arent JUST baby makers and i wish more people would realize that

i have 2 mares and after much thought i'm NEVER gonna breed either of them. Why? Because one is too small and refined and i'm scared to death of losing the other one.

does that mean i'm gonna get rid of them because they cant "pay for themselves"? HECK NO! they mean the world to me, whether they can pop out babies every year or not

i'm not against breeding, but i do think it needs to slow down a tad, because there are more horses than there are good homes right now. i tried to sell my gelding, who's kid safe, AMHA reg, broke to drive, done parades, is walked on roads, is bombproof, has awesome manners and is a total clown for only $800(his only real fault is he's shy until he gets to know the person) and the only responses i got were scammers and one lady who wanted to, and i quote, "use him for a riding pony for my 12yr old daughter"

: keep in mind he's 29" at three yrs old. i didnt reply to that e-mail, and have decided to just keep him...plus he's kinda grown on me

 

[tagalong]

The more mares i have in foal, the better my odds. I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can.

WIth all due respect, if you substitute the word ******* for mares and pregnant for in foal , that is how puppy mills rationalize their breeding practices. I am not saying that is what you are doing, but that is how puppy mills validate what they are doing.

You do not need to "improve your odds" by having that many foals on the ground - instead, you can breed selectively with the horses you have. This farm has bred maybe 30 mares in the last 7 YEARS and has had a lot of success and many excellent foals. Quantity does not guarantee quality. Foals are not a product on an assembly line, but something carefully considered and planned. Mares deserve a break - even if they are breeding sound, they deserve a break. Especially if they had a dystocia. We also have retired broodies here who simply get to laze around. They do not have to earn their keep or churn out foals on a strict schedule.

It's simply good management. JMHO. And that of every farm I have ever worked on - a variety of breeds and disciplines.

*zips up flame-retardant suit*

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I feel it is sad that so many owners of minis, dogs, cats, etc., breed just for the profit they hope to see. Flame suite on.

Agreed. *adds second suit*

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

WIth all due respect, if you substitute the word ******* for mares and pregnant for in foal , that is how puppy mills rationalize their breeding practices. I am not saying that is what you are doing, but that is how puppy mills validate what they are doing.

You do not need to "improve your odds" by having that many foals on the ground - instead, you can breed selectively with the horses you have. This farm has bred maybe 30 mares in the last 7 YEARS and has had a lot of success and many excellent foals. Quantity does not guarantee quality. Foals are not a product on an assembly line, but something carefully considered and planned. Mares deserve a break - even if they are breeding sound, they deserve a break. Especially if they had a dystocia. We also have retired broodies here who simply get to laze around. They do not have to earn their keep or churn out foals on a strict schedule.

It's simply good management. JMHO. And that of every farm I have ever worked on - a variety of breeds and disciplines.

*zips up flame-retardant suit*

Agreed. *adds second suit*

i totally agree, just didnt wanna say it for fear of getting flamed.

 

[Magic]

This thread is one reason I so love this forum. On most forums a subject like this would go hand in hand with name-calling and worse, but I've seen quite a bit of respect in these posts even though there are a lot of differing opinions. I enjoy reading these kinds of things with an open mind and looking at all sides of the subject, and come away always learning something new.

Here, we started as we all must, as newbies to the mini horse world. We'd had full sized horses since childhood but never had shown. It was a whole new experience with miniatures. I was lucky enough to find a superb mentor immediately who helped me learn so much. We did a little breeding, sold foals, did a lot of showing and had plenty of success. Fast forward to our moving to our new, larger place, and our increased herd size, and the bottom falling out of the market with the depressed economy. We have over 40 horses and had built up to breeding seven to eight foals a year, but now we are considering taking a year off breeding, then possibly doing very limited breeding, and cutting back on the number of horses we have as well. Yes, horses are still selling for us, but the prices aren't as good as they had been, and I do recognize that as a breeder, I am contributing to the overpopulation of horses. We are expecting some foals this year but as always, we bred for what we want to keep. Any horses that are advertised for sale and don't sell are kept and well-cared for, for the rest of their lives if need be. We have one old retired mare (27 years old) that we got simply because she is the dam to our favorite mare and as such I felt that she deserved an excellent retirement. We have some other mares that are in their mid-teens who will stay here forever too, just to be retired and cared for. We were doing this as a business for years but we are thinking about cutting back, doing it as just a hobby and not have to worry about "the bottom line". To me, the horses are the important thing.