Newbies WAKE UP

[Tab]

Have any of you experienced difficulty in selling horses lately or ever? My horses have plenty of food so it isn't imperative that I sell even giving our current situation. However, I am noticing that we are having difficulty selling breed-wide. The abuse and neglect cases have also skyrocketed because of this. While it's easy to judge, and some of them deserve to be judged, we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Perhaps they lost their job and have to pay $25 per hoof trimming, $2 per bale of hay, $15 per bag of feed, $50 plus for vet work per horse, $100s in registration fees, etc. and also have to feed their families. Give them away you say? But what if nobody wants them because they cannot afford the associated fees just to own a pet.

For newbies: you CANNOT make money selling horses, not even in the BEST of economies. Expect to keep and be responsible for those adorable babies that you will not sell. Horses can live to be 30. Expect to feed, care for, groom, trim, and vet that adorable baby for up to 30 years.

Do you want to breed? Don't! The reality is that miniature horses are just not selling. If we all bred our horses half as much their value would increase. In 14 years I have only 8 miniature horses and viewing the sheer numbers of miniature horses for sale on the Internet I know they are not selling. I do not mean to offend with this post but I have enough seniority in this breed to know there is a problem when the average value for a gelding in '98 was $500-$1k, a miniature stallion in '98 was probably close to 2k and open mares would go for 3-6k and today some of the best are now going for $500.

Want to breed? Let me save you and everyone else a lot of heartache. Don't.

 

[CZP1]

Well said Tab! I totally agree.

 

[targetsmom]

I hear you and agree! I even had trouble GIVING away a mare last year that I paid $3,500 for a few years ago. She was ready to show in almost any event except driving, where she was green broke, having been hooked a couple of times with no issues. After three tries I did find her a good home. I figure I would need to get $100,000 for a foal to break even after all our losses and huge vets bills. No, that is NOT a sales pitch LOL - we don't have anything for sale.

In addition to the economics of breeding don't forget the heartache. Losing your foals at ANY age or stage of development can be heartbreaking. Watching a favorite mare in horrific pain, or losing one that you have become attached to is gut-wrenching. Do you have the ability and funds to deal with such a situation if it means thousands of dollars in vet bills and a several hour trip to a clinic?? This is all part of it. Think about all these things and consider where you will bury your losses before you breed (or hope that the stallion gets in with the mares, or feel that it is safe to leave a yearling colt in with the fillies).

Of course it is your choice to breed or not but you should know going in that it is a lot more than just a cute foal. It took us 3 years to get our first live foal and now he is dead too.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

As we were all new once upon a time, it's a tad judgmental to say you can't and I can. BUT, I do agree with you on the reasoning.

There is just so much involved with breeding and the expense, that is my main reason I tell people to really consider it. Also I always encourage new to the breed, to buy the best they can afford if they want to breed, or if they think they may want to breed.

A true pet shouldn't be bred, and the day they have inexpensive spaying for mares, I'll spay ones I don't think are breeding quality. But I also feel most Mini's end up in pet situations regardless of quality, so DON'T BREED WONKY HORSES! Just because they have the equipment doesn't mean they need to use it! It can be conformationally correct, etc., and still be a much loved pet!

I always hear the reasoning well I'll make X back from the foal. Maybe, might, doubtful. First you have a year to care for the mare, and hope for a live healthy foal, all the expenses Tab listed and sell for $500? You've lost a ton of money. When I see double registered Minis for sale for $200, I wonder what they're thinking or why they keep breeding. A/R registration and DNA testing runs close to $100, so I don't care if you trim your own and grow your own hay - isn't your time worth anything? Deworming/vaccination and I think you're over that $200 price.

Hay prices here - $12-18.50 a bale. The good alfalfa I buy $18.50 yesterday, the cheap stuff $12 (tried and horses waste to much). The owner of our feed store said hay is going to be high all year as many farmers are growing grains (cereals) versus grass/hay this year. That's an added cost to consider too.

I will say though in Northern CA, gelding prices are about the same as they've always been. People either really want them or don't. The prices have always averaged $500-1,500 (pets lower end, usable higher). It's the mare prices I've really seen take a hit here going from the $3-6 to around $850-2K range.

 

[txminipinto]

I do have to agree. I believe if you can't put your horse (breeding stock) out in a show ring and get a show record on them they shouldn't be bred. And if you don't breed for the show ring they shouldn't be bred. Champion x Champion doesn't always produce a champion but at least some breed standard and improvement was attempted. Its the willy nilly breeding of these small horses just because we all can that bothers me.

And who pays $2 for a bale of hay? Where is it because I want to buy it!

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

Its like that with anything. I have been Showing and breeding Akitas for 21 yrs there are people out there that think you can make money off selling puppies. Most are backyard breeders who just want to make a quick buck. All I can say is thank God Horses only have one baby. For me I breed for my self with dogs as I am looking for the next dog I can show with the Minis I will also only be breeding for myself. If someone was interested in buying one fine but if not they stay here and will only keep as many as I can devote time to meaning I will not breed any of them if I can't take care of them. I refuse to let any of my animals get thrown to the curb.

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

I guess I am fortunate as I pay $2.50 a bale and its good hay... sorry not telling you where I get mine as I need it for myself

Again it sounds so much like the dog world. I do have show quality Akitas and have a very very good reputation for my akitas as they are winning and are EXCELLENT quality to the breed standard but we all start out somewheres and yes its not for the weak heart God knows with my dogs I have lost older ones that were my family members, puppies, older pups so its very much the same but for a dog they can produce in one year 2 litters which in turn can be up to 20+ puppies depending on the breed and just way to many are in shelters, being abused, used for who knows what. Its a cruel world out there for anything and is a big commitment if one decides to breed any type of animal as if you do it "RIGHT" there is no money in it period! God knows I am broke but I LOVE my animals

 

[Reble]

On the other hand, this is our hobby, gets us up and going and a reason to enjoy life, we love raising these little guys, when you think of it as a hobby, prices are not that bad.

You can spend lot more money on golf, hockey and snow mobile etc, and think of the cost with them, these precious animals can give so much more back to you.

We breed to help with our expenses, for feed, vet, fun shows and they pay their way. I guess we are one of the lucky ones.

You have to decide how many is enjoyable and how many become a job.

 

[chandab]

On the other hand, this is our hobby, gets us up and going and a reason to enjoy life, we love raising these little guys, when you think of it as a hobby, prices are not that bad.

You can spend lot more money on golf, hockey and snow mobile etc, and think of the cost with them, these precious animals can give so much more back to you.

We breed to help with our expenses, for feed, vet, fun shows and they pay their way. I guess we are one of the lucky ones.

You have to decide how many is enjoyable and how many become a job.

And, they are good therapy; although, I don't think I'd call them "cheap" therapy, but being they are in my backyard, they are handy therapy.

No need to drive anywhere.

 

[Matt73]

I totally agree. I breed strictly for myself (one foal every other year=2 foals born here); if I do decide to sell, for whatever reason it's to a great home that I keep in touch with (I have sold those two foals to homes like that).

As an aside, I'm also really amazed at the amount of people that breed that seem to not know the basics about horses, let alone breeding and raising a foal. I know that you have to start somewhere, but to me that means reading tons (about normal pregnancy/dystocias and what to do etc. etc.) and maybe getting a mentor and being present at foalings. Handling foals. etc. etc. It means you should have a very strong theoretical and practical knowledge of horsemanship. I spent 20 years riding and showing (not to mention getting a very solid foundation in Pony Club) before I even thought about bringing a foal into the world. It really surprises me, how many people buy a mare in foal and just can't wait for her to have a cute little baby, without thinking ahead

 

[miniwhinny]

I agree with what you've said but differ on one point...don't just pick on newbies

. The odd "newbie" breeding the odd foal is a drop in the ocean compared to the larger farms popping them out like it's going out of style and flooding the market with their "gotta make room" sales.

 

[TPs flat rock acres]

Well for some they are not close to people that can mentor them so kind of disagree with that. If I waited for a mentor, vet or what ever where I live Heck who knows where I would be. With my akitas I had no mentor I learned the long hard road but it taught me respect for my dogs, where I want to be as a breeder and to really appricate life to its fullest with my animals. I became the akita breeder today that I can say I am very proud of. I have shown my own dogs to their championships, Have an ROM girl and have my own dogs that are continuing to produce top quality akitas. Sometimes those who you might think are your mentor could also be using you. Found that out the hard way as she told me to buy this akita to only find out she was making points of me showing her for her dog. I find making friends like I have so far in the mini world and learning myself yes it might be the harder way but where I live its the only way.

chanda Excellent post

Same with Reble

I have had minis for 5 years 2 have had 2 foals in the past 2 years... I wasnt there thank god they were ok but I have to say within the last few months talking to some GREAT people I have learned so much and can't be thankful enough. I know there is going to be some hard roads ahead as I am sure I will have some losses but doing this yes as a hobby I will take the good with the bad and really really enjoy the good!! That is what life is about right ?

 

[Riverrose28]

Well, well, well, I agree mostly, unless you breed for your own use, but I do agree on a lot of what has been said. I have been breeding horses since 1977, when I look at it now seems like a long time, we started in arabs, then when arthritis got the best of me we got into minis in 1999. We had our first two foals in 2001, only two, this was after promoting our stallion, and buying only top quality mares. I was at the sale were NFC Sugar Boy sold for $55,000, and another top stallion sold for more. Times have changed. I calculated several years ago that it cost me over 995. to get a foal on the ground. You have the cost of the extra vaccinations, to pay someone to watch the mare while you sllep or go to the feed store, the vet coming to do a well foal examine, and the list goes on, registration, etc. Prices have fallen, and I didn't breed any, not one mare for this year. I consider myself a responsable breeder and therefore realize that I have enough horses to care for until I can sell some. I do sell my pets for a low price, and lose money as it cost the same to bring them into the world, but you can breed a champion to a champion and still get a bad bite or crooked legs once in a while, it happens. We try to breed the best to the best for show quality, but don't breed when the market is down. I have several good quality mares I would love to breed to our champion stallion but won't because the market is unstable. So I do agree that if you can't market your horses don't breed, and only breed the best to ensure to improve the breed. Also on another note, there are some old time reputable breeders out there that still have a hold on the market, they've earned it, and won't have any trouble selling were as the newbies will have trouble unless they have a fortune tied up in advertising and excellent horses.

 

[MindyLee]

Personaly its not the folks here that Im worried about breeding as we all try to strive to produce future minis with nice everythings...

Its the mini mills with non reg stock or bad confirmations and such who pumps foals out 10+ per season for a couple $100's for a quick buck who dont care about the future of the miniature equine that I would push this on.

Must of us here will take responsibility of our foals if they dont sell, mills will sell for cheaper to get it off their property asap! and wont ever look back at that foal as now its not their problem.

 

[SampleMM]

Personally, I would never tell anyone they should or shouldn't breed; however, I do agree with you. Sometimes, I just have to shake my head and wonder why people do what they do. Just because you can afford to buy 50 mares.............doesn't mean you should be breeding 50 mares. Don't you think a better plan is to see what your stallion produces and buy mares that compliment him? Also, if you are breeding to make money, well then I feel sorry for you! There are very few people that can make a living off of miniatures and they've been in business for a very long time.

 

[Riverrose28]

Personaly its not the folks here that Im worried about breeding as we all try to strive to produce future minis with nice everythings...

Its the mini mills with non reg stock or bad confirmations and such who pumps foals out 10+ per season for a couple $100's for a quick buck who dont care about the future of the miniature equine that I would push this on.

Must of us here will take responsibility of our foals if they dont sell, mills will sell for cheaper to get it off their property asap! and wont ever look back at that foal as now its not their problem.

This is a sad fact of life, I have been to a sale, where the breeder will sell sick and lifless foals with a registration not applied for just a piece of paper. I also know of a flipper that buys from auctions, cheap, then resells, cheap but with a profit for them, sad, sad. Some of these auctions are a shame, the horses only bring around 350 and then the overhead, I know most are pet quality, but as a breeder you don't know what kind of home they go to.

 

[Riverdance]

I agree with you, but it is not only the Newbee's. Has one looked at some of the top farms to see how many babies they are having? Then have a big sale on their junk babies, some calling it their $1000 sale. Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more

. Talk about flooding the market.....

Not all foals born on one of the top farms is going to be a show prospect. But many people do not realize this and buy from those farms because they do have some nice foals, but not the foal that they bought. Then thinking they have a nice horse, they breed it and then wonder why the foals did not turn out.

People need to learn proper conformation before breeding. Yes, every horse has faults, but if they have many faults, THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED. Of course I have said this many time on this forum.

I have backed down on having too many foals. Shame on me for breeding some mares that I wanted to sell. After this year I will only breed those mares that I want a foal from. Still, with those mares bred that I want to sell, I am only expecting about 5 foals. Of those 5, two are ones that I am looking forward to. My 6th one, I lost the mare and foal. She was also one I wanted the foal from.

 

[Riverrose28]

I agree with you, but it is not only the Newbee's. Has one looked at some of the top farms to see how many babies they are having? Then have a big sale on their junk babies, some calling it their $1000 sale. Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more

. Talk about flooding the market.....

Not all foals born on one of the top farms is going to be a show prospect. But many people do not realize this and buy from those farms because they do have some nice foals, but not the foal that they bought. Then thinking they have a nice horse, they breed it and then wonder why the foals did not turn out.

People need to learn proper conformation before breeding. Yes, every horse has faults, but if they have many faults, THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED. Of course I have said this many time on this forum.

I have backed down on having too many foals. Shame on me for breeding some mares that I wanted to sell. After this year I will only breed those mares that I want a foal from. Still, with those mares bred that I want to sell, I am only expecting about 5 foals. Of those 5, two are ones that I am looking forward to. My 6th one, I lost the mare and foal. She was also one I wanted the foal from.

Those big names you speak of, we got taken big time a few years back. Went to one of those AMHA Premier auctions, selling show quality horses only! Hubby bought five, of the five four went over, good thing I like my AMHR horses even if I have to hardship them in. The fifth horse was a disaster, I told him not to buy this colt, it had a great pedigree, but to me was skitzzy. He says it's just becuase he is a show quality colt and a way from home, brought this guy home and couldn't get him to acclimate at all. Had the vet out. blind in the left eye, and suffererd from birth trauma, I had him gelded and he is still hard to do anything to. Hubby never did get to show him. this colt is worth nothing except a lose. It takes everything in my power just to get him wormed he rears up, backs up, goes crazy for everything, need to sedate him to get his feet trimmed. I've tried to give him a way and no takers, it's no wonder.

 

[RhineStone]

Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more

. Talk about flooding the market.....

Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?

I just read recently that someone had an idea about having horse owners "license" their horses, like you have to license dogs. While I am not a big fan of more government red tape, this has some merits if it means people might think twice about breeding that many horses! Of course, there would always be those folks that get around the red tape....

I still say that every foal should have a "purpose" before it even hits the ground, and being sold isn't one of them. For example, when we were trying to breed our mares (unsuccessfully), we had intentions that we were going to drive the foals. Now, every foal isn't going to live up to everyone's expectations, but at least if the foal is "wanted", then it won't just flood the market.

 

[Riverrose28]

Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?

I just read recently that someone had an idea about having horse owners "license" their horses, like you have to license dogs. While I am not a big fan of more government red tape, this has some merits if it means people might think twice about breeding that many horses! Of course, there would always be those folks that get around the red tape....

I still say that every foal should have a "purpose" before it even hits the ground, and being sold isn't one of them. For example, when we were trying to breed our mares (unsuccessfully), we had intentions that we were going to drive the foals. Now, every foal isn't going to live up to everyone's expectations, but at least if the foal is "wanted", then it won't just flood the market.

I don't know about in your state, but in the stae where I live, if you sell more then five horses a year you must pay a fee, and be inspected, I think it is $80. and then some. The Dept. of Ag. asks a lot of questions, we already have plenty of forms to fill out yearly, even if we only sell a couple, and they have the right to come out and inspect when ever they want.