Ownership/AOTE question

[wpsellwood]

Yeah I have a feeling that is one thing we will never agree on LOL. Thats ok.

 

[ClickMini]

Jody, why don't you work on training your horse to accept clipping on his legs? I have used clicker training to get horses over these type of hurdles. I once bought a mare the farrier thought we would never get done without massive doses of tranq and a muzzle. She would strike out in every possible direction. In four months I had her handing me her foot when I pointed to it. We could do anything to her at that point, clip, bathe, vacuum, blow off, do farrier work, give shots, etc. I really spent a lot of time doing husbandry training on her, and it sure paid off.

I actually think it is an obligation of a horse owner to have their animals trained to accept this kind of handling. If your horse is not safe for you, she is not safe for anyone else, either. A horse that can not stand for clipping, really doesn't meet the criteria of a well-trained show horse. It is a hole in the training that you must address, rather than try to push through a rule change to accommodate. If you would like some clicker training tips, I would be happy to pass some along to you. I have so often gotten big horse babies and rescue horses that don't want anything to do with people, etc., that this is actually a bit of a specialty of mine.

 

[Humhill]

I'd love to be able to have someone else clip my AOTE horse. I HATE clipping!

What about being able to have another Amateur clip your horse? It wouldn't be like having a professional do it. Besides, I agree that the clip job isn't going to make that much difference.

What is the rule on someone else transporting for you? Can they also feed the horse for you at the show?

 

[ClickMini]

I re-read my last post and I am sorry that it sounded kind of snotty. That was not how I felt when I was writing it...I was in a hurry and honestly I do feel I can help someone get their horse past this bad behavior. It is so annoying and frustrating to have a horse that has this kind of problem, I know! I have had many over the years. Anyway, my last post and this one are offers of help so that people can do their own clipping and have a better relationship with their horse. I use positive training methods and I have not yet run across a horse that you can't use it on.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Jody, on this one issue, I will disagree with you. AOTE is for people that really do, do it all. This is really one area that is unique to the AMHA, and is a differentiating factor on what shows a person might choose to go to. It is a big draw to me, personally. I do everything myself at this time. Body clipping is more than difficult for me as well, but I do it. It limits how many horses I can take to a show. I understand that you probably have bigger issues than just being arthritic, since you said it might change your ability to do things for the rest of your life. However, if you are unable to do all of the requirements of the division, you still can show in Ammy and Open. That is all that is available to us when we show in AMHR, and I must say I don't feel shorted.
I think it is really, really important to keep in the spirit of the AOTE division. If a couple of people are negatively impacted that is too bad, but the intent of the class is to show off ALL you can do all by yourself.

I SO agree on this. This is "our" class. We work hard to pull these ones off. (We'd REALLY like AMHR to start AOTE...

)

I'm sorry if people can't clip or whatever to physical limitations. I know my time will probably come soon. But, pretty soon, if we keep adjusting rules so everyone can "play" ...

AOTE will become "just another class".

 

[Relic]

l wish people would try and just flow with the AOTE rules as they stand now l think there okay and fair even with the few changes made along the way instead of always trying to change them more and more to meet needs...before you know it it's called AOTE and it becomes JUST ANOTHER ammy class and doesn't do a darn thing for the ones who do and enjoy having a seperate class to enter where THEY DID ALL the work start to finish...

 

[Shaladar]

l wish people would try and just flow with the AOTE rules as they stand now l think there okay and fair even with the few changes made along the way instead of always trying to change them more and more to meet needs...before you know it it's called AOTE and it becomes JUST ANOTHER ammy class and doesn't do a darn thing for the ones who do and enjoy having a seperate class to enter where THEY DID ALL the work start to finish...

I so agree with this post and the others . AOTE is Amateur Owned, TRAINED and exhibited. And yes....I consider body clipping/facials TRAINING. I and my husband are AOTE. Heck, I even trim my own horses hooves!(I do not expect AOTEs to trim the hooves...I only do it because I want to) I do NOT think it is right to be able to hire someone else, probably a pro, to clip a AOTE horse. That takes away the whole AOTE thing.

There are already those who cheat. We know who they are. If it makes them sleep better at night to cheat, go for it, but Please don't give them more opportunity to stretch and bend the rules. Like others have said....it will then simply become another Ammy class.

I can understand the issue of having your horse hauled, and don't have a problem with that.

Sue

Added: I do have back issues and carpal tunnel, but I still clip my own horses. Yep, it hurts and I pay for it, but it is what has to be done if I want to show AOTE.

 

[Minimor]

I have to say that I think if clipping is such a big issue then hoof trimming should be as well. Hoof trimming is every bit as much training as clipping is, and certainly goes hand in hand with grooming--so people showing in AOTE should be doing their own hoof trimming as well!

And yes, I do my own trimming, my own clipping, my own EVERYTHING even though I do not show in any amateur classes. I qualify as amateur, but don't bother showing in it--I like my open division.

 

[Millstone Farm]

A bad clipping job won't result in anything but a horse with a bad clipping job.

HOWEVER, a bad hoof trim can (and many times does) result in a lame horse, and even a horse who can develop laminitis, etc.

I would never encourage anyone who does not have professional training to do anything more than sand and paint their horses' feet.

There are reasons that there are farrier schools, but not one i've ever heard of that offers a degree in clipping.

 

[Minimor]

HOWEVER, a bad hoof trim can (and many times does) result in a lame horse, and even a horse who can develop laminitis, etc.

Considering that I have fixed many a bad trim done by certified farriers I cannot disagree with you on that statement, but I do have to say that just because someone has a farrier certificate doesn't mean they are good at trimming feet! Farriers can mess up a horse just as badly as some non-farrier owners.
Regardless, it could be argued that if one wants to show AOTE then one should make the effort to learn to trim feet properly! Can be done, but of course I do realize that there are many owners who should not be trimming their own horses' feet--for that matter there are many who don't know enough about it to even judge accurately whether or not their farrier does a good job of trimming!

Just sayin' that if I were going to the annual meeting to cast my vote on the matter, I would vote in favor of the motion (if there is one) to drop clipping from the list of things that must be done by the owner in order to qualify.

 

[Humhill]

So, back to the transporting issue....

Can another Amateur haul your horse to a show and feed them/clean the stall while you're not there?

Example: Can I have another Ammy haul my horse to the show, feed the horse and clean the stall until I arrive and after I leave?

 

[Relic]

The rule book on pg 121 states.. but doesn't mention anything about being at the show and someone doing those things for you..

AOTE horses may be transported to and from shows by anyone, including trainers. This includes loading, unloading, feeding and watering during transport.

.

 

[Annabellarose]

This thread has been very educational for me. I thought that AOTE meant Amatuer Owner To Exhibit, but, apparently, it means Amatuer Owner Trained Exhibited? It sounds as if I would probably qualify for these classes as I do EVERYTHING myself (right down to sometimes administering my own shots and sometimes trimming my own hooves). I want to look into AOTE further. After learning more about this class I would not agree to or vote for a change that allowed owners to hire someone (even another Amatuer as someone earlier in the thread suggested as I see so many Amatuers today that I honestly consider professionals) to clip. I don't have a problem with someone hauling for you as some people don't own their own horse trailer and/or "pony pool" to save gas, etc.

 

[minimomNC]

You can actually leave your AOTE horse with a trainer for up to two weeks I think it is so the trainer can haul your horse to a show and back home. And the trainer won't touch the horse for those two weeks except to feed and water it?

 

[Relic]

minimonNC...just exactly where do you read that about leaving an AOTE horse with a professional for up to 2 weeks before a show?? l find that underhanded if thats the case but can't for the life of me find anything that refers to what your saying..

 

[minimomNC]

3. AOTE horses may be transported to and from

shows by anyone, including trainers. This includes

loading, unloading, feeding and watering during transport.

This is from the rule book, no where does it say how long the horse can stay with who ever is hauling it. So if an AOTE needs a horse hauled and they want to take the horse there, there is no time limit as to how long the horse can stay. In in saying that, it can be at a trainers as well as anyone elses. This is the reason I have a problem with anyone hauling an AOTE horse, there are no limits, while clipping takes about an hour of time with the horse, the horse could be with the person hauling it for several days.

I also got this from the minutes of the June 2008 meeting. I removed the names but anyone can go on AMHA's website and research the same thing.

Hauling Time Limit – X X X proposed adding a time limit for AOTE horses being hauled by a trainer.

This would be done on the honor system to add credibility to the AOTE program. X X X made a

motion to add a 30 day limit (before, during & after the show) to rule AM-010 6a3. Seconded by X X X .

 

[Relic]

When l called the AMHA office today and asked about the time limit if there was one.. as of now the way it stands l was told NO they could only be hauled by the trainer/professional family member or someone else within a day or so of the time before and after a show. While at a show anyone of those people can only feed water and muck out for the horse till the AOTE person shows up. But was flat out told 2 weeks prior to a show an AOTE horse with a pro/trainer was not allowed...if changes are made to this rule thats yet to be seen..

 

[minimomNC]

The rule book is what I posted from, copy and paste word for word. No where in that rule does it state a time limit, so if I wanted to leave my horse for a week or two, what is telling me I can't? The office? They couldn't tell me if there was a rule against an AOTE horse being shown by someone other than the owner in an open grand class while the owner showed someone elses horse. If it is not in black and white in the rule book, how is it enforced?

 

[minimomNC]

Actually I am going to stop here, none of this entire thread is an issue to me because we do it all ourselves including clipping, training, feeding, care and hauling. Now if I could get someone to pay the bills, I would go for that one, but I don't see it happening. What I do want people to see is the big picture. A rule might not mean anything to you but as a whole it does affect the grand scheme of things. I don't have a problem with the clipping thing, its one hour of a horses life a couple of days before a show. The hauling issue, there are some that will abuse it and others that won't even realize its being abused. I have seen so many things that are so wrong being done with AOTE horses that iit's just not funny anymore but there are no set rules against it. This division is totally an honor system division, if you can cheat to win and live with yourself then so be it. I know we are doing what the rules are intended for, to be the only ones to do it all with our horses. I can't do any more than that. But I can tell you, if I see AOTE rules being broken at any show that I am at, you can bet I will be in the show managers office with the rule book to protest. And anyone else that is trying to make this division as honest as possible should be doing the same thing.

 

[Humhill]

Actually I am going to stop here, none of this entire thread is an issue to me because we do it all ourselves including clipping, training, feeding, care and hauling. Now if I could get someone to pay the bills, I would go for that one, but I don't see it happening. What I do want people to see is the big picture. A rule might not mean anything to you but as a whole it does affect the grand scheme of things. I don't have a problem with the clipping thing, its one hour of a horses life a couple of days before a show. The hauling issue, there are some that will abuse it and others that won't even realize its being abused. I have seen so many things that are so wrong being done with AOTE horses that iit's just not funny anymore but there are no set rules against it. This division is totally an honor system division, if you can cheat to win and live with yourself then so be it. I know we are doing what the rules are intended for, to be the only ones to do it all with our horses. I can't do any more than that. But I can tell you, if I see AOTE rules being broken at any show that I am at, you can bet I will be in the show managers office with the rule book to protest. And anyone else that is trying to make this division as honest as possible should be doing the same thing.

Some good points Karen. And that's why it bothers me that the rule book does not specifically talk about someone else caring for the horse at the show. It's not in black and white in the rules. I don't want to depend on what someone in the office says to back me up. Now, if they want to give me a signed statement saying it is allowed, that's another story.

It's the ones that cheat that make it harder for the honest and paranoid ones. Personally, I would rather train them myself. I'm more proud of my AOTE horse than any I've had with trainers. It just doesn't mean as much to me.