Pintaloosas

[hobbyhorse23]

Sheri, your colt looks like a leopard, not a pintaloosa to me.

I thought so too but notice the clear white socks on the back? Pintaloosa.

Leia

 

[Sheri Hill]

Sheri, your colt looks like a leopard, not a pintaloosa to me.

He has 2 socks and white coronet and a star, also a smudge over 1 eye, low strip and a snip, also two blue eyes. Sire is a few spot and dam has socks huge blaze that goes under lower lip and blue eyes.

Here is a pic of him when a weanling and you can see his face markings a lil better.

Here is a pic of his Dam with her 05 filly, NOT MY COLT in this pic.

Here is Illusion with his Dam.

 

[Meavey]

In my book socks don´t make a pinto.

Sabino can make socks too, and so does splash.

 

[Tony]

I have had several apps with socks and blazes and certainly don't call them pintaloosa. But it is just my opinion.

 

[SmoothEZ]

Here is a picture of my pintaloosa stallion way back when they were not so very popular. As a matter of fact I was told that they should not be allowed to show back then because it was not good to cross the appy and pintos to get this great color even though Orion was a prolific stallion even back then. I can't believe how people change their songs as the breed changes.

. This colt took AMHR Reserve National Champion Yearling Stallion and Reserve National Champion in color the year that this photo was taken and he was bred by Liz McMillan the photogapher way back when she was breeding and showing horses.

 

[Sheri Hill]

In my book socks don´t make a pinto.

Sabino can make socks too, and so does splash.

I thought that Splash and Sabino are Pinto patterns.

:

I figured with the 2 bright blue eyes, socks and odd white facial markings that he must have inherited the sabino and or Splash from his Dam. (especially with the bright blue eyes.)

 

[Meavey]

I thought that Splash and Sabino are Pinto patterns.

:

I figured with the 2 bright blue eyes, socks and odd white facial markings that he must have inherited the sabino and or Splash from his Dam. (especially with the bright blue eyes.)

In my book a pinto has body white, to me sabino, tobiano, frame and splash are pattern that make white markings.

I do know about minimal pinto´s, in the tobiano form, but one parent has to be tobiano, and even a tested positive tobiano with just white socks, I would more likely call it a solid that doesn´t express his tobiano that much, or one that doesn´t look it, but can breed it.

If I see horses with just a blaze I don´t call them overo, just my opinion.

I feel that sometimes people only want to make a horse more interesting by calling them that, and I don´t like the fact that people that not know genetics and stuff, fall for it, and sometimes even pay extra for a horse when it is given such a tag.

Geneticly I keep all these patterns in mind, but when I say pinto, it has body markings, overo same thing.

:

 

[Sheri Hill]

Normally, I wouldn't say that just because of the face markings and leg markings that he is a pinto, but because of the bright blue eyes, I am assuming he is minimal with one of the pinto genes in there giving him the blue eyes. When I had posted him on the Appaloosa project (study of LP and PATN and Appaloosa color patterns genetics by Sheila Archer, she is one of the top in this field!) they called him a pintaloosa with those blue eyes etc. There is no connection so far with blue eyes and LP (appaloosa traits) that I am aware of, or they have found in this ongoing study that I had read yet, unless I missed it. (they are close to the test for LP though! )

I am asuming his dam with her 2 blue eyes and huge blaze going down under her lip and chin is a sabino but minimal with no body white, and that she passed it on to him. (her 03 filly also was a spotted near leopard with blue eyes) I have NO problem, calling him a Near Leopard with blue eyes, ( I figure she must be carrying a pinto gene to throw those blue eyes though and it seemed to make sense that he was a pintaloosa. So if he IS carrying it and CAN throw it, wouldn't that make him a pintaloosa? Like a minimal pinto that tests positive for whatever pinto gene, although you can't see it, genetically he is still a pinto. (there are even minimal homozygous ones like this) This is the first time I have had anyone say they wouldn't call him a pintaloosa. Where else would the blue eyes come from that his dam has (obviously the sabino gene with her blaze and lower white chin and lip) and is passing it along? She is not a perlino or cremello or champagne. So in your book are you saying that only white on the body is considered pinto, whether they carry tobiano, frame, splash or sabino? SO if they are any of these in minimal form, you don't call them a pinto?? I try to call them what they are, whether you can see it or not, as "that" is actually what you got, correct? (not trying to argue just trying to understand what you are saying and I am always learning too!

: )

I have no problem calling him a Blue Eyed Near Leopard, as that defines his Color and Pattern better anyway. I never meant to offend anyone or try or think I was trying to represent him as something he is not. :no:

Sheri

I thought that Splash and Sabino are Pinto patterns.

:

I figured with the 2 bright blue eyes, socks and odd white facial markings that he must have inherited the sabino and or Splash from his Dam. (especially with the bright blue eyes.)

In my book a pinto has body white, to me sabino, tobiano, frame and splash are pattern that make white markings.

I do know about minimal pinto´s, in the tobiano form, but one parent has to be tobiano, and even a tested positive tobiano with just white socks, I would more likely call it a solid that doesn´t express his tobiano that much, or one that doesn´t look it, but can breed it.

If I see horses with just a blaze I don´t call them overo, just my opinion.

I feel that sometimes people only want to make a horse more interesting by calling them that, and I don´t like the fact that people that not know genetics and stuff, fall for it, and sometimes even pay extra for a horse when it is given such a tag.

Geneticly I keep all these patterns in mind, but when I say pinto, it has body markings, overo same thing.

:

Me too, (full size) and normally I wouldn't either, but since this guy has blue eyes, and so does him dam who is a Sabino with blue eyes. I figure he is minimal. Where else would the blue eyes come from?? (nt trying to argue just trying to learn or hear where others might think the blue eyes came from. There is no Cremello or Perlino or Champagne here sooo, I figure Pinto genes are the other only other I can think of that would give his dam and him the blue eyes.)

Either way I love this guy and am happy to call him my Blue Eyed Near Leopard. :bgrin

Sheri

I have had several apps with socks and blazes and certainly don't call them pintaloosa. But it is just my opinion.

 

[Sheri Hill]

Normally, I wouldn't say that just because of the face markings and leg markings that he is a pinto, but because of the bright blue eyes, I am assuming he is minimal with one of the pinto genes in there giving him the blue eyes. When I had posted him on the Appaloosa project (study of LP and PATN and Appaloosa color patterns genetics by Sheila Archer, she is one of the top in this field!) they called him a pintaloosa with those blue eyes etc. There is no connection so far with blue eyes and LP (appaloosa traits) that I am aware of, or they have found in this ongoing study that I had read yet, unless I missed it. (they are close to the test for LP though! )

I am asuming his dam with her 2 blue eyes and huge blaze going down under her lip and chin is a sabino but minimal with no body white, and that she passed it on to him. (her 03 filly also was a spotted near leopard with blue eyes) I have NO problem, calling him a Near Leopard with blue eyes, ( I figure she must be carrying a pinto gene to throw those blue eyes though and it seemed to make sense that he was a pintaloosa. So if he IS carrying it and CAN throw it, wouldn't that make him a pintaloosa? Like a minimal pinto that tests positive for whatever pinto gene, although you can't see it, genetically he is still a pinto. (there are even minimal homozygous ones like this) This is the first time I have had anyone say they wouldn't call him a pintaloosa. Where else would the blue eyes come from that his dam has (obviously the sabino gene with her blaze and lower white chin and lip) and is passing it along? She is not a perlino or cremello or champagne.

So in your book are you saying that only white on the body is considered pinto, whether they carry tobiano, frame, splash or sabino? SO if they are any of these in minimal form, you don't call them a pinto?? I try to call them what they are, whether you can see it or not, as "that" is actually what you got, correct? What you see is not always what you got. (not trying to argue just trying to understand what you are saying and I am always learning too!

: )

I have no problem calling him a Blue Eyed Near Leopard, as that defines his Color and Pattern better anyway. I never meant to offend anyone or try or think I was trying to represent him as something he is not. :no:

Sheri

I thought that Splash and Sabino are Pinto patterns.

:

I figured with the 2 bright blue eyes, socks and odd white facial markings that he must have inherited the sabino and or Splash from his Dam. (especially with the bright blue eyes.)

In my book a pinto has body white, to me sabino, tobiano, frame and splash are pattern that make white markings.

I do know about minimal pinto´s, in the tobiano form, but one parent has to be tobiano, and even a tested positive tobiano with just white socks, I would more likely call it a solid that doesn´t express his tobiano that much, or one that doesn´t look it, but can breed it.

If I see horses with just a blaze I don´t call them overo, just my opinion.

I feel that sometimes people only want to make a horse more interesting by calling them that, and I don´t like the fact that people that not know genetics and stuff, fall for it, and sometimes even pay extra for a horse when it is given such a tag.

Geneticly I keep all these patterns in mind, but when I say pinto, it has body markings, overo same thing.

:

Me too, (full size) and normally I wouldn't either, but since this guy has blue eyes, and so does him dam who is a Sabino with blue eyes. I figure he is minimal. Where else would the blue eyes come from?? (not trying to argue just trying to learn or hear where others might think the blue eyes came from. There is no Cremello or Perlino or Champagne here sooo, I figure Pinto genes are the other only other I can think of that would give his dam and him the blue eyes.)

Either way I love this guy and am happy to call him my Blue Eyed Near Leopard. :bgrin

Sheri

I have had several apps with socks and blazes and certainly don't call them pintaloosa. But it is just my opinion.

I will send some pics of him again to the Appaloosa Project for Sheila to look at and ask where she thinks the blue eyes come from. She is the color genetics guru!

:

Sheri

 

[Meavey]

Blue eyes are now considered to be splash or frame, but alot of horses carry splash or sabino, mostly it´s just stars, snips, blazes, and white legs/feet what you get with it, so with just blue eyes, no I would not call it a pinto.

Splash is considered to be homozygous when it shows alot of body white, so without another splash carrier the chance of getting that is very slim.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Seems like you guys are talking about two different things here. One of you says it's only pinto if it shows full pinto markings, i.e. body white, and the other says if the horse carries pinto genetics than it's a pinto. You both have a point but given how unique the minis are with regard to socks/blazes and maybe lacking the restrictor genes the big horses apparently have I would have no problem calling a mini with socks and facial white a pinto when I wouldn't label a big horse with the same markings anything other than solid color.

You can breed a big horse with socks to another big horse with a star, snip, and two coronets and get a foal with only regular leg white. You do that with two minis and you're likely to break out with full body spots! LOL. So I have been convinced by this forum to call them pinto even though I wouldn't have on a big horse. To me it's an issue of "Do they carry the gene?"

For big horses it's "Do they show the markings?" This is because of that restrictor gene thing and looking at what crossing them may produce.

Just my confused .02! :lol:

Leia

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Seems like you guys are talking about two different things here. One of you says it's only pinto if it shows full pinto markings, i.e. body white, and the other says if the horse carries pinto genetics than it's a pinto. You both have a point but given how unique the minis are with regard to socks/blazes and maybe lacking the restrictor genes the big horses apparently have I would have no problem calling a mini with socks and facial white a pinto when I wouldn't label a big horse with the same markings anything other than solid color.

You can breed a big horse with socks to another big horse with a star, snip, and two coronets and get a foal with only regular leg white. You do that with two minis and you're likely to break out with full body spots! LOL. So I have been convinced by this forum to call them pinto even though I wouldn't have on a big horse. To me it's an issue of "Do they carry the gene?"

For big horses it's "Do they show the markings?" This is because of that restrictor gene thing and looking at what crossing them may produce.

Just my confused .02! :lol:

Leia

Leia I think you hit the nail right on the head =) I too think of it in the same way...with miniatures, if they carry the pinto gene, they are a pintoloosa. With big horses, if they "show the markings" they are pintoloosa.

It's an odd and touchy subject because pinto is a very vast pattern including splash, overo, frame, sabino, tobiano, tovero, etc. etc. and jeez it just never ends lol. It's odd because in the big horse world, an appaloosa CAN have socks and a blaze but in the miniature world, socks and a blaze are minimal but are typically seen as pinto markings. To me, if the foal has 2 solid appy parents (all appy including grandparents) yet is born with a blaze, snip, strip, or similar, it's still an appaloosa. If socks are present, it's pintoloosa in my mind. If the foal has one pinto or pintoloosa parent, then the foal itself is a pintoloosa for sure.

Sheri,

I too sent in photo's of my appy filly to Shiela Archer. My filly has 2 appy parents with brown eyes, both parents have appaloosa or solid parents...no pinto at all until her 4th generation back. She has one blue eye =) Shiela couldn't find much of an explanation for it except that either sabino or some strain of pinto carried down 4 generations, or it just happened to be a genetic "oops". I don't know, call me crazy but with all the blue eyed gorgeous pintoloosa's creating blue eyed appaloosa foals who go on to have more appaloosa foals with blue eyes (pinto percentage goes down each generation) I think blue eyes will be common in the appaloosa pattern in miniatures pretty darn soon!

But back to the pinto topic...yes I am more on the genetic playing page. If a parent is pinto, the foal is for sure pintoloosa. But where I get funny is here...if the foal is from 2 appy parents and is born with a blaze, as long as it doesn't extend down over the lips, it's appaloosa. If the foal has socks, it's pintoloosa. As long as there are no socks, and no body white, any white on the face is ok.

That's JMO

:

They very well could be pintoloosa's if they have mottling on their genitals and lips - sclera isn't always present in pintoloosa's, more a pure appaloosa characteristic. Here's a photo of my mare when she was a weanling, she's roaned out to look like a near leopard now, wouldn't even know she's a pintoloosa by looking at her now!

Delight

I love her!!!! She is gorgeous!!!!

Thank you very much! She has changed drastically in just one short year...here's a photo of her from just last summer =) Same girl, note the unique patch on her rump! I had a tug of war with AMHA for ownership transfer because she looks so different from her foal photo's!

 

[Meavey]

Well if a horse is tobiano and only has socks, I would not mind calling it a minimal pinto, but sabino can make socks too, and the chance of getting a sabino pinto is very slim.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Meavey, my understanding was that sabino IS a pinto pattern even in its minimal expression just like splash, like overo, like all the others. It is a pattern of white markings capable of creating body white above the knees so it is considered pinto. It's a subject near and dear to my heart

as my Arab is sabino with four high white socks with jagged edges, star, strip and snip, white on his chin, and a small roaned spot on his upper rump. At least three of his offspring that I'm aware of out of solid colored purebred Arab mares had large and defined white spots on their bellies (enough to get them registered pinto) and another one had a HUGE roaned white spot on the same side of her rump as her sire. So even though his sabino is minimal and I would call him solid color, I believe it still counts as pinto because his offspring show white on the body when crossed with solid mares with minimal white markings like a coronet and star.

It's odd because in the big horse world, an appaloosa CAN have socks and a blaze but in the miniature world, socks and a blaze are minimal but are typically seen as pinto markings.

That's it exactly. Good phrasing! I was scrounging for that fine point and missing it but that's what I was groping after. LOL

Thanks for the great and civilized discussion everyone!

:

Leia

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

Here is my pintaloosa, likely a sabino/tobiano. I clipped him over the weekend, and I am excited to see more spots!

 

[mgtman]

My pintaloosa, National Halter Champion, Reserve National Champion Multi Color Stallion, Sunnyside Fire Cracker.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Love that picture of him =)

 

[crponies]

I like to see a horse recognized for any pattern displayed no matter how minimal. I actually think this would confuse people less. Right people don't understand where some foals get the white from, such as "crop-out" Quarter Horses. I see nothing wrong with calling a horse a pinto or pintaloosa even if it only has minimal markings. However, I realize when working with registries, you must look and see what that registry's qualifications are.

There have been some very nice pintaloosas on this thread. I love those combos and think Orion was the first mini whose name I learned.

:

 

[anyssapark]

It is also possible that your girls are Tobiano/sabino crosses. The roaning on the dam, and the white lip marking on the filly could be characteristics of sabino...

Do you know the sire of the filly?

Renee

 

[midnight star stables]

My filly Joy is reg. as a Pintaloosa. Her Dam is a chestnut pinto, and her Sire is a appoloosa. Her sire was born black and when light grey/white by the time he was three.

Joy Has pinto markings, striped hooves, a tiny bit of molting, etc. She too was born black, but is now a grey, but is always getting lighter, and is just a year on Saturday... Here are some of her pictures:

I'll post a new picture tonight.

To be honest... I wish Joy didn't have appy in her... I dislike the roaning and I feel that the conformational faults are from her sire's side as well - but I could be wrong.