POLL CROSS ENTERING OF ASPC/AMHR HORSES AT SAME SHOW

[wpsellwood]

The only comment that I can make, as we dont show alot of R, but tyring to go back to it

We did get one to R nationals last year!! Is that the over showing of one horse, lets face it some people are not that smart, sorry folks but I see it in the AMHA show on person will show a horse in 12-15 classes just imagine them doubling it! I feel sorry for those poor horses getting drug around and burnt out. Just saying..... sometimes you have to protect the horse from some people, and please Im not saying all just some of those few. So does that mean no??? LOL

 

[Devon]

I don't want any drama and I DO see BOTH sides but I figured I'd post my opinion here as some wanted to hear why one would even choose yes.

I have AMHR only and a few ASPC/AMHR love them both, but recently thought hey I'd love to show them for what they are bred as Shetlands but then I started thinking well they have to qualify for nationals first and some need their HOF in mini, Which is more marketable in my area being there is no ASPC shows. Honestly ASPC would probably thrive if they allowed cross entering as then they'd offer the classes here and I could get some over sized shetlands as well and have a market for them.

In my area there are NO ASPC shows at all so yes I think it'd be neat as we would probably start offering ASPC here because everyone with Double horses would compete, therefore I could get into the bigger shetlands and have classes in Canada. I Do go over the boarder to show a couple times a year, plus nationals but that's still hardly worth it to show against 3 or 4 horses in ASPC instead of 12+ Mini. So in a selfish way YES it'd be awesome if when I took my ASPC/AMHR horses over the border which ends up getting pricey with health papers and gas , then I could get HOF points in both divisions if I thought the horse would be competetive in the ASPC division.

Someone mentioned on FB that they didn't want the ASPC shows turning into mini shows, but I mean these horses ARE shetlands who matured small enough to be AMHR (A Height Breed

). So really I wouldn't even cross enter all my double papered horses because some probably wouldn't stand up against the big guys but I DONT think we need a smaller class in ASPC I mean if we want to show them as the breed they are Shetlands; then I would assume that we feel they could do well based on conformation not height. These ASPC/AMHR horses have every right to show ASPC of course and it'd be neat to do both BUT I mean I wont be mad either way.

I also understand everyones concern with the AMHR only horses , I know my one broodmare is R only bred to ASPC/AMHR and was told several times "I would have bought her foal if it was ASPC/AMHR" even though the filly looked full shetland and was in fact 3/4 shetland. BUT that being said I don't think dis allowing cross entering will fix our market value on AMHR only horses , it may give us more time but it will inevitably matter to some people about double papers and not to others.

I feel Disallowing it is understandable but I also would be in favour of allowing it ..

I think we all have to remember that up untill the books closed anything under 38" could be registered Mini weather it had hackney in it or welsh pony or whatever ..

So Really it doesn't make sense to not allow cross entering considering they are TWO totally seperate things a Shetland Pony and a Horse under 38"! Think about if it was a tiny welsh pony and there was a welsh show next door you wouldnt wonder why it was showing welsh and mini; Its just ASPC and AMHR are basically one registry in the essence that their int he same building etc , etc

 

[Enchantress]

So I guess I'll be an odd one out on this topic. I think it should be allowed. If my horse has both sets of papers, why not? I don't think overexerting a horse will be any more of an issue than it is now. Any good horse owner will know their horses' limits and keep their best interests in mind. I'm not close to Shetland shows, and the Shetland competition is minimal if it exists at all. So, when I have to choose, I'll show as a Mini, and the ASPC only horses just stay at home, which is a shame. I generally just show halter, so wow, I could do 2 classes instead of one! It's not like it's saying any random horse can show....they'll have both sets of papers which means the horse belongs to both registries, so why should options be limited? If that's the case, then why allow double registry at all? Yes, you'll have to meet the requirements to show as each and be entered and pay as two separate entries, but if you're willing to pay for it...

Many people are concerned about hurting the B Minis. I guess my question would be....where was the breed 50 years ago? I would guess your B minis are pretty different than they were then. And it's all just a judges preference. There are some judges that don't prefer the Shetland look and some that do. But there are some that like more of a stock horse type, and some that like more of a "saddle horse" type even in the A minis. Buy what you like, show what you like, breed what you like, and always remember, even if the judge doesn't like you, there are people watching that might take note of your horses because it's what they like and not what's popular at the moment.

Another question to consider: If there's a combination weekend with AMHA one day and AMHR another day, should A/R horses have to pick which registry they'll be showing with in that particular weekend? As someone else brought up, all ASPC and AMHR classes aren't usually crammed into one day.

 

[LC Farm]

After I started reading this I also wondered how the AMHA/ AMHR shows worked since we have no AMHA shows in Michigan. I'm assuming you would be able to show the same horse on different days for that registery. I'm the owner of both AMHR and AMHR/ASPC horses so I will have to vote yes. Since the AHMR/ASPC horse is already showing against the AMHR horse it is in the judges hands who wins. I love the horse for the horse not what kind of papers he/she has. A great horse is a great horse. I think this idea would make money.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I voted yes. I feel the entries in the pony classes would increase dramatically! Then you wouldn't have to choose mini or pony, and those that don't have many shows in their area would be able to show their pony/mini.

We have a ton of R shows down here, and the entries in the Mini classes way outnumber the entries in the pony classes. Might even out a bit if you could show both. And the shows might actually make a bit of $$ for a change!

 

[LaVern]

I can certainly see why the double people would like to see this go through. It was done many years ago and there was such an uproar that it was put to bed by the board.

It is not that I don't think our B minis can't beat the pants off most of the ponies, I have done it for years.

No Shetland has come close to Express in the AMHR .

But here is the deal, my good mares are bred down from Welsh. That is the look I like.

Doing this is, just telling the exhibitors and the public that the B horse is supposed to look like a Shetland. And to me they should all look like little adorable Welsh ponies. Others might like similarities to other breeds.

I have decided to just show a few of my Welsh Miniatures and advertise the heck out of them.

I am buying a little Welsh Stallion for some of my B mares and will just sell a few pretty ponies. No more registration stuff. If someone want to register them 1/2 Welsh they can.

 

[AshleyNicole]

Ashly ,

I am not sure why you are so bitter toward the AMHR shows when several of your horses including the ones that came from me have been National Champions at AMHR ?? If you are showing under 34" minis' and showing AMHA , then there is no difference in showing AMHR , Most of this discussion is over the B size which YOU can NOT show at AMHA shows any way .. And I hate to be the one with the bad news for you , but there are MANY yes MANY already in AMHA that are Reg. Shetlands , So I ask how are you getting away from the shetland by not showing AMHR ?? , I don't mean this to be ugly ,and I think you are a very nice person and so is Billy , but you are still learning and let me also say the background of Bare and several of the Rowdy bred horses you own are SHETLANDS .. Not a thing in the world wrong with it , And You can compete with your horses and your bloodlines at both Assoc.. Condition and training is all you need to add you already have the horse flesh and you will be succesful..

:FirstPrize

Not really bitter I don't think. It's just when we have talked to some judges including the one that we had at the last show they kind of told us that you have to go to Shetlands because that is what AMHR is going to even in driving they basically said you cannot compete otherwise. I do see some small Shetlands in the under classes. I know that you have some in AMHA but not as many and I hope they close the books for good and start to make the miniature a breed. I realize that Rowdy as well as many of the minis come from a Shetland background but I don't think that they look like the Shetlands of today. They don't seem to have the neck and not as refined....for sure Gold Melody Boy and some other older style Shetlands look nothing like todays Shetland. Not meaning to come across nasty (hope I didn't lol). Some have even told us Bare would not win in todays show ring because of the Shetlands and it has been just a few short years since he was really showing. I LOVE Bare he is my favorite horse period and really in the end just want to give his offspring the best chance

 

[kaykay]

I can kinda see both sides but not the vehment opposition.

So many shows are hurting and for sure this would help keep those shows going.

Even if this does not pass you will still have to show against ASPC/AMHR registered minis. That isn't going to change either way.

If you do not own ASPC/AMHR horses why on earth do you care if they show both? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I have no problem with someone else choosing to do it. Just like I have no issue with someone showing AMHR one day and AMHA the next.

 

[AshleyNicole]

I can kinda see both sides but not the vehment opposition.

So many shows are hurting and for sure this would help keep those shows going.

Even if this does not pass you will still have to show against ASPC/AMHR registered minis. That isn't going to change either way.

If you do not own ASPC/AMHR horses why on earth do you care if they show both? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I have no problem with someone else choosing to do it. Just like I have no issue with someone showing AMHR one day and AMHA the next.

I think we care about them showing in both because it is tougher competition for the AMHR only B horse. Yes it's true some are great enough to beat a AMHR/ASPC horse but as many judges want a more Shetland look a nice correct B horse will not win against a AMHR/ASPC horse. It will take that much longer for that AMHR only horse to HOF thus they will have to go to more shows or give up. That is why many with AMHR only B sized horses would be against it.

 

[fancyshadow]

I think we care about them showing in both because it is tougher competition for the AMHR only B horse. Yes it's true some are great enough to beat a AMHR/ASPC horse but as many judges want a more Shetland look a nice correct B horse will not win against a AMHR/ASPC horse. It will take that much longer for that AMHR only horse to HOF thus they will have to go to more shows or give up. That is why many with AMHR only B sized horses would be against it.

I just don't understand how this idea will make it harder for the AMHR only B horses because they will be showing against many of the same horses anyway. I am planning to bring out 2 AMHR only B geldings and I plan to show them against my own AMHR/ASPC geldings. I see no reason the R-only horses can't beat the double registered geldings. There are some amazing single registered horses and some amazing double registered horses. I guess I am just dense because this is not getting through to me. And as for the hall of fame--the more horses in the classes, the more points are available. To me, that is a winning idea.

 

[ohmt]

After some thought, I have changed my mind and it is because I looked at my list of shows that I'll be attending this summer. I have one that is only an hour away, but it's the day my best friend is getting married so can not attend. The next one is 5 hours, and the rest are 7-9 hour drives, one way. AMHA shows up here are few and far between-it is mainly AMHR. I think this would allow an increase in revenue for shows, which would be highly beneficial, especially in this economy.

THIS:

I love the horse for the horse not what kind of papers he/she has. A great horse is a great horse.

That's how it should be, always. I don't want to be a person that doesn't want certain horses to show just so I don't have to show against them. I want my horses to compete against the best there is out there. I breed for 34" and under, though I did just buy an AMHR/ASPC yearling colt that will be showing this year. I didn't buy him just because of his papers. I love his proportions and I hope to get that with my 34" and under horses later on.

 

[Minimor]

I don’t think this is going to take anything much away from your straight AMHR horses if it gets passed. I think perhaps a number of people are overlooking this: Very likely the majority of the double registered horses that are showing at the dual ASPC/AMHR shows are already showing AMHR. I know that a good majority of the people I know that have the ASPC/AMHR got them specifically to show AMHR—and that is what they are doing. Will they now enter ASPC as well? No doubt some will; some surely won’t. Many owners get to only 2 shows, so have to show AMHR in order to qualify for Nationals. Some, if they get to more shows, do show AMHR at some shows and ASPC at others. Some stay with AMHR at every show just because that is where they want to show—they have no interest in showing ASPC. And yes, some people are showing their small ponies ASPC only and don’t do AMHR classes, for whatever reason. These people may decide to show AMHR now if they are able to show at both divisions at a single show. Obviously it will vary from show to show, maybe even from Area to Area, but I am quite sure that there are a number of shows that won’t see much of an increase in small ASPC entering AMHR classes. It is the ASPC divisions that will see the most benefit from this rule change—like Bob said, perhaps with this we will see more shows with bigger ASPC classes. I am not sure how that hurts the straight AMHR horses?



Andrea—actually there are a number of one-day shows that have both AMHR and ASPC approved shows. Our Brandon fair show is one example. So, a ASPC/AMHR driving horse could be shown in all his driving classes in that one afternoon. The good thing there is, we don’t offer all the classes in every division. We offer the open, youth and stake classes for most divisions. A few divisions have only open and stake classes, no youth. We do not offer ladies and gentlemens classes. So, a horse could have 12 driving classes if he were being shown in pleasure driving and roadster, and if a PMC drivier were also driving that horse—ASPC Classic Pleasure Driving Youth, Open and Stake, AMHR Pleasure Driving Youth, Open, PMC and Stake, ASPC Roadster, Open & Stake, AMHR Roadster, Open, PMC and Stake. The only other performance class would be hunter—we offer AMHR hunter, and only one class for each size.



But—that is my only real issue with allowing the cross entry—I do not like to see any horse driven into the ground and I can see a few exhibitors getting carried away with the number of classes they enter with one horse. If they haven’t conditioned that horse for that many of classes, and/or it happens to be an exceptionally hot, humid day, the potential is there for someone to overwork a horse.



People have often complained on here that the Shetlands don’t pull their weight---that the AMHR shows support the ASPC classes….and now something—this proposal-- is presented that would serve to increase ASPC entries at the dual shows…since horses would no longer have to pick & choose which way they will show—the dual shows would surely see more revenue from the ASPC classes, making them more self supporting… and people are complaining about that.



Makes no sense really….except I guess those opposed don’t want the horses to show both ways, they just want them to leave AMHR and stay with ASPC only. There’s the rub, eh? This rule still won’t get them out of AMHR.





I don’t think this is going to take anything much away from your straight AMHR horses if it gets passed. I think perhaps a number of people are overlooking this: Very likely the majority of the double registered horses that are showing at the dual ASPC/AMHR shows are already showing AMHR. I know that a good majority of the people I know that have the ASPC/AMHR got them specifically to show AMHR—and that is what they are doing. Will they now enter ASPC as well? No doubt some will; some surely won’t. Many owners get to only 2 shows, so have to show AMHR in order to qualify for Nationals. Some, if they get to more shows, do show AMHR at some shows and ASPC at others. Some stay with AMHR at every show just because that is where they want to show—they have no interest in showing ASPC. And yes, some people are showing their small ponies ASPC only and don’t do AMHR classes, for whatever reason. These people may decide to show AMHR now if they are able to show at both divisions at a single show. Obviously it will vary from show to show, maybe even from Area to Area, but I am quite sure that there are a number of shows that won’t see much of an increase in small ASPC entering AMHR classes. It is the ASPC divisions that will see the most benefit from this rule change—like Bob said, perhaps with this we will see more shows with bigger ASPC classes. I am not sure how that hurts the straight AMHR horses?

Andrea—actually there are a number of one-day shows that have both AMHR and ASPC approved shows. Our Brandon fair show is one example. So, a ASPC/AMHR driving horse could be shown in all his driving classes in that one afternoon. The good thing there is, we don’t offer all the classes in every division. We offer the open, youth and stake classes for most divisions. A few divisions have only open and stake classes, no youth. We do not offer ladies and gentlemens classes. So, a horse could have 12 driving classes if he were being shown in pleasure driving and roadster, and if a PMC drivier were also driving that horse—ASPC Classic Pleasure Driving Youth, Open and Stake, AMHR Pleasure Driving Youth, Open, PMC and Stake, ASPC Roadster, Open & Stake, AMHR Roadster, Open, PMC and Stake. The only other performance class would be hunter—we offer AMHR hunter, and only one class for each size.

But—that is my only real issue with allowing the cross entry—I do not like to see any horse driven into the ground and I can see a few exhibitors getting carried away with the number of classes they enter with one horse. If they haven’t conditioned that horse for that many of classes, and/or it happens to be an exceptionally hot, humid day, the potential is there for someone to overwork a horse.

People have often complained on here that the Shetlands don’t pull their weight---that the AMHR shows support the ASPC classes….and now something—this proposal-- is presented that would serve to increase ASPC entries at the dual shows…since horses would no longer have to pick & choose which way they will show—the dual shows would surely see more revenue from the ASPC classes, making them more self supporting… and people are complaining about that.

Makes no sense really….except I guess those opposed don’t want the horses to show both ways, they just want them to leave AMHR and stay with ASPC only. There’s the rub, eh? This rule still won’t get them out of AMHR.

 

[ahrobertspony]

Will readily admit I didn't read all of the posts of this thread. However, I can tell you this without doubt or reservation: well better than 80% of the people I know who are the MOST ADAMANTLY STRONG SUPPORTERS of removing the prohibition between cross-entering at the same show are AMHR exhibitors who are wanting to be able to show their double registered in the Shetland classes in addition to the AMHR classes they already support, NOT the other way around. Certainly, there will be some ASPC ponies that might double up if registered AMHR but nearly everyone I know most in favor of this change are AMHR looking to double into ASPC.

I also encourage folks to look at the difference in the mind set on showing between the two sides. Longer-time show & performance folks aren't going to run full tilt to show both ways at a show because we want to get the absolute best performance out of our animals. I know I wouldn't run a pony in full set of both classes at one show. However, I might take advantage of qualifying in something like costume or color for Nationals.

Yes .... there will be a few folks who over show their animals. Frankly, it's the SAME folks who are already doing it. This rule won't change that one way or the other. Unfortunately, you cannot legislate common sense.

There is one additional reason why this might not become as large a problem as some predict. AMHR prohibits shoeing. Many performance Shetlands are shod. They won't be able to show both ways at a single show as a result.

Honestly, it's not been THAT long ago that being able to show both ways had NOT YET been prohibited. I can name you a month, year and show the last time I saw it happen. Shoot I can even tell you who the judge was! I know the mare that was a primary catalyst for the discussion and the "stable/farm" that was, therefore, targeted. I STILL think of this prohibition as the "so&so family" rule. I've heard this joked about in committee meetings at conventions since it was passed ... by the figurehead of the same family ... who also joked about it being their family rule.

Undoubtedly, the reasons for keeping this prohibition in place this long have grown, changed and expanded. Some posts here have excellent points ... both ways.

However, the current realities have also changed as well.

The ASPC, Inc. - encompassing ASPC, AMHR, ASPR & NSPR - already has other registry divisions whereby crossing over at the same show CAN occur. Therefore, legally, any rules prohibiting similar crossing for other registry divisions present a problem. Further, I don't know the details, but there might even be an additional legal consideration simply prohibiting something related to a registration.

Will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[muffntuf]

I am curious, there have been two references to 'legal' considerations on these threads - can these people enlighten the rest of us?

 

[Devon]

I think we care about them showing in both because it is tougher competition for the AMHR only B horse. Yes it's true some are great enough to beat a AMHR/ASPC horse but as many judges want a more Shetland look a nice correct B horse will not win against a AMHR/ASPC horse. It will take that much longer for that AMHR only horse to HOF thus they will have to go to more shows or give up. That is why many with AMHR only B sized horses would be against it.

I am confused ? Us being allowed to put our ASPC/AMHR horses in ASPC and AMHR at the same show won't affect how the AMHR class will be pinned or change the judges opinion especially if they show shetland after Mini. And not every shetland is noticable form a Mini I've seen some AMHR only horses win thought they were shetland only to find out their not, a lot of minis have shetland blood in them

This shouldnt be a Mini Shetland debate topic though.

And I do understand the points about horses being overshown but I would hope people wouldn't abuse being able to cross enter.. PErsonally my horse would be in one halter class AMHR and one ASPC if they did performance I would still only do AMHR.

 

[racingfan72104]

I had bought a filly that was sired by a Mini Stallion and out of a Shetland mare. Both parents were registered with their respected registry. but the filly i bought could not be registered so i sold her. This is why i am thinking of selling all my horses as i am tired of all the politics and crap of the registries. IF YOU WANT A MINI SHOW MINI OR A SHETLAND SHOW SHETLANDS.

 

[LaVern]

I kind of think that this will fly now, as years ago when it was so strongly opposed there was not so many of the doubles and it would probably benefit most of our directors. But I was wondering if it would help the shows as they would have to hire double the amount of judges. A judge can't have seen the horses already.

Maybe the double trainers wouldn't like it as well as they wouldn't make as much money.

 

[LaVern]

Another thing I want to know is how this proposal came in. A few years ago I presented a proposal to the board ( about having them decide how many years we had held Nationals) I wrote and sent it to all the directors,and then put it on the Forum. Is it not necessary to present something to the spring meeting that way? It seems to me that a lot of stuff gets handled at the spring meeting that we are not made aware of.

If it had not been for Belinda we would not know anything about this. Thanks again Belinda.

 

[LaVern]

I promise I will stop, but this is just stuck in my craw. I said earlier that this proposal was just another nail in the coffin of the B horse, but I also think it is one for the over 38 inch Shetland. So many advantages to owning a short one. And all the more reason to hold Congress and Nationals together. Not what I want to see, but I think it will come.

 

[Yaddax3]

For Belinda or anyone else in the know:

Is this something that, if passed, would be implemented during the 2013 show season?

And ...

With most shows not yet having been held, any chance it can be implemented immediately?