Predator strategy - guard donkey

[Magic Marker Minis]

Holy crap! That looks like Jurassic Park!

I've been giving some thought to where to move to in Colorado... I'm very familiar with Evergreen, since I lived in Denver and workmates and friends in Evergreen. Can be very wild in that area...

I gave some thought to Westcliffe area... Love the idea of the high mountain valley... snow melt on both sides would create lush pasture; however, I was also thinking of the bears and mountain lions and what we'd do to protect our minis and goats...

So, now I'm thinking further east, like the Lower Arkansas River Valley (La Junta, etc.) The biggest prey out there would (probably) be coyotes... We can handle them. We have LGDs that can take them out (theoretically).

But, also, I've also thought the best thing to do is bring the animals in closer to the house in drylots and/or the barn. A layered defense system is the best bet. We also have a big horse stallion that is really full of himself... I expect he would take on a coyote as he tries to take out/play with our pit bull cross, which is about the size of a small coyote...

Instead of a guard donkey, though, I'd rather get a Mustang from the BLM. They would be better prepared to fight off a predator since they live out there in the wilderness to begin with.

Kari

Place down the road when I lived in WA, had black faced scottish sheep. They had a full sized guard donkey.... Cougar ate it and ate and killed two sheep.

Cougar will pull down a donkey, llama.. or alpaca. They are easy food.
Sure most of you will remember what happened to Ella, she was a B sized Donkey and I didn't get her to guard... but it didn't stop a Bobcat from laying her face open and clawing her hindend.

My Icelandic horse saved her.

Only way to sleep at night is put all the animals in a locked barn or build something like the 2 1/2 acre Night pasture we had in Oregon.

8' tall fence on the small flat area, but every where else the fence was 9 to 10' to a predator....and in Oregon, we had lots of very aggressive and active predators.

This is when we first put it up, there was another wire put on the top. It did keep the Black Bears, cougars, coyotes packs and Bobcats out of that pasture. Most that happened to it, a Black Bear slightly bent

one of the T Posts. Also had the heaviest hot wire and a predator rated charger.

And don't forget the gate... put sweeps and hot wire on it. DH likes to sleep at night.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes, well, hate to point it out but we all know what happened in Jurassic Park when the electric went down......

The fence looks as if it would be a real deterrent though, and I would certainly go that way- hopefully with a mains link up and the ability to crank up the voltage at night. I don't think I could leave them out at night though, I think I would worry too much. A good strong barn with alarms all over it, I think would be my choice. Also, would it be possible to put an extra wire about three foot outside the fence, at cat/coyote nose level? If they cannot get a good place to jump from they may just give up. At the end of the day, everything is going to be just a deterrent, but I don't think a donkey would be even that, I think it would just be lunch!!

 

[Foxhaven]

Well, I went to the Lakewood Riding Club last night (formed in 1947, pretty cool history). I was one of two men there of course...

Holy cow, LOTS of information. When I brought up my questions, one of the leaders (who has minis and has had donkeys) stated that in a confrontation with a lion and a donkey..... she would put money on the donkey. She is super impressed with their toughness and attitude. While a comparison between tooth and claw would clearly favor the lion, it comes down to psychology: the lion is looking for a meal, not a fight or confrontation. She will move on to something that runs away.

That's why you never EVER EVER run away from a cougar.

She also thought that a jennet or gelding would not be all THAT dissimilar in protective instinct. She confirmed finding one with a good history with minis would be a wise path.

I am much encouraged.

 

[Foxhaven]

Oh, FWIW, I believe a 2.5 joule fence power unit can run between 5KV and 10KV... probably enough! The complicating factor is potential to ground, and insulators (like thick fur, more like an insulator than a conductor). That's why I alternated hot and ground wires in the fence... increases the likelihood of that 10KV showing full potential across a predator's body because at least part of their body will be touching ground when the other part touches a hot wire.

Power outages are quite rare here but a UPS would cover it. In any event, they will be put up at night. After the cat digging through to the stall story, putting field fence on (or just below) the ground all around the barn took on attractiveness to me.

Fortunately the barn is quite close to the house and will be decently lighted.

 

[Minimor]

http://www.goldendalesentinel.com/story/2013/03/13/features/cougar-shot-after-killing-donkey/2250.html

This one doesn't say how big the donkey was:

http://www.lakesideleader.com/2012/121107/week45.pdf

 

[Foxhaven]

Yep. Nothing is sure.

 

[Helicopter]

No, dingos wouldn't bother minis. Infact in my 60plus years I've never seen a dingo outside of a zoo and I've travelled extensively.

A pack of dogs........well that would be another story. Fortunately I haven't seen any of those either. Touch wood!

A pack of wild humans would be the biggest threat.

 

[MountainWoman]

Well, I'm sure glad all we have roaming around are bears and coyotes and foxes and the occasional moose. Although two years ago during an early spring thaw a bear close to my farm did kill a donkey who got between the bear and the food he wanted.

I always wanted to move to Colorado before this thread.

 

[Foxhaven]

LOL... cougars have a great range. One was collared and tracked from ALBERTA down the Rockies until he was killed by a car in KANSAS! Changed a lot of thinking about cougar migration and range.

Don't let this sour you on Colorado... it's just where we live is prime cougar habitat. They have good taste in real estate.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I still think donkeys are so much cougar lunch- maybe the people you were talking to had no emotional investment in the donkey- if you view something as expendable then I suppose it is worth a try.

 

[Foxhaven]

No animal is expendable. Even when I take a life hunting it is bittersweet and I am fully aware of the cost and treat that life as sacred gift.

They do have more adaptive behavior than running away though. Probably why burros survive well in the wild.

Just another layer of countermeasures and defense.

 

[little lady]

If we had to concern ourselves with the cougars/bears etc I would be putting up a fence like Shari's, followed by second defense of a donkey and anything else that may help. I would also keep them in of a night in a secure barn. Actually I would keep them in the barn at the highest time frame from hunting, like around here it is typically dusk and dawn(for coyotes so far but have had sightings of cougars). Sounds like you are doing your homework thoroughly and best of luck. Please share pics and what you do, would be a great learning tool for the rest of us.

 

[Shari]

Yes, well, hate to point it out but we all know what happened in Jurassic Park when the electric went down......

The fence looks as if it would be a real deterrent though, and I would certainly go that way- hopefully with a mains link up and the ability to crank up the voltage at night. I don't think I could leave them out at night though, I think I would worry too much. A good strong barn with alarms all over it, I think would be my choice. Also, would it be possible to put an extra wire about three foot outside the fence, at cat/coyote nose level? If they cannot get a good place to jump from they may just give up. At the end of the day, everything is going to be just a deterrent, but I don't think a donkey would be even that, I think it would just be lunch!!

I have a predator/Sheep rated charger.... you touch that and one hurts like heck for 15 minutes. We make sure it is properly grounded and the rods are watered when it is dry out.

Didn't have any problems the few times the power went down. But DH build's strong fencing..... he said, Running out in the Middle of the night in his underwear and a shot gun is over rated. LOL

You can see, some Hot wire up around the outside of that fence. (picture was taken before all the hot wire was up)

My Icelandic's go nuts closed in barns. So this was our best option.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Possibly DH charging out in his underwear would be the greatest deterrent of all......

 

[Foxhaven]

This last weekend we went to an equine rescue place not far away. They have two donkeys. One, bless him, had docked ears from frostbite. His hard life gets easier from this point. The other was definitely an alpha gelding (recent geld). I found out more about his history- he came in with a mini stallion stud (also gelded when he was seized) and defers to him! He much prefers minis to the other donkey. And prefers people most of all... he would let me do nearly anything with him, will stand for a farrier, I can lean on him and fiddle with his muzzle, he is fine with it. Conformationally he looks pretty good too (in the legs and movement especially). About 550 lbs.

He reminded me of a big puppy (minus the hyperness). About 6 years old.

When we walked him past a herd of minis, he was EXTREMELY interested in them and let out a beautiful bray. OK.... maybe I have an odd sense of beauty... LOL.

Since I have two pastures presently getting everybody used to each other seems doable. This might be a rare, good match. Looks like my barn building isn't going to stop as soon as I'd hoped.

 

[Magic]

We live less than half a mile from a range of mountains that are a protected Wilderness Area with numerous mountain lions in residence. Neighbors have seen lions right in their yards, even during the day. In the seven years we've lived here we haven't seen any mountain lions, or any evidence of any having been around, but we have two Livestock Guardian Dogs, a female Anatolian and a male Anatolian/Great Pyreness mix. The dogs have full access to all of the pastures and are extremely diligent about watching for any kind of possible threat and warning them off. A mountain lion won't even consider taking on two big dogs, it's far too much of a risk for a big cat to take.

 

[wingnut]

Note to self: when assessing areas to move to in a few years, remember to check in to prevalence of predator animals!

Yikes!!!! We have nothing like this to worry about in Maryland. We're even lucky that "roaming" dogs are never an issue for us either.

OP: I wish you the best in finding the right solution!!!

 

[Pam Crise]

We have a mountain lion that runs the river and part of the timber we live in. I got a mini mule - I got him for his ears not for him taking on the cat. (-: He knows when the cat is out and about before the horses and he will put his herd into the barn. They are there until he says they can go out. He's in with 6 miniatures and our old Arab can get into his barn (not the same part of the stalls or lot-not physically together). I have connecting lots with 12 other minis. Even though they are not physically in his lot/part of the barn they also will go in when he puts away his herd. Normally he is not at the top of the pecking order. We put up 9' fence with a kicker bar (as I like to call it) of two lines of power at the top. They slant out like the prison fence tops. We had a vet student here once who had worked with grey wolves and mountain lions. Like others have said- she said it can easily go over our fence at this height. But she said - they are basicly lazy and will hear the electric fence and should move on to easier prey. He has done one kill within 2 miles of us.Took down a POA stallion who was by himself, did not kill him, must have decided he was too much work and killed the cow next to him instead. The owners had to put down the POA. This was between 1-4 in the afternoon - broad day light. I believe they kill and eat whenever they feel like it not according to day or night. We also have a radio playing at all times through the entire barn and motion lights. Horses are on dry lots and go to pasture when we are out doing chorses to be able to keep an eye on them. The mule is gelded - yes he can play pretty rough when he feels like it. The minis have handled it well - they are all his size or a little bigger. After watching him I don't think I'd put a full size mule in with minis - alot of damage could be done. We have two dogs who can not get into his area (with the horses at all) unless we let them in. We keep them with us when he is about because he will drill them - fast. I know a stray dog would not walk out of his lot. I have been told they will kill foals thinking they are prediators. We do not foal so its not an issue here. He knows his job and he takes it very seriously.

 

[Foxhaven]

Well, things are falling into place. Of course, way faster than I planned... and the snow keeps falling here, way more than I expected (WILL not complain of moisture, WILL not complain of moisture... ;-) )

Looks like I need to build another tack / feed shed, but glad we thought ahead. We will have plenty of stall space. Hay storage will temporarily be pallet and tarp in an enclosed area. I have a week to finish and it is starting to seem doable. Including working from home for a week or most of, to keep an eye on them as they share a fence. Since the donkey has a history of deferring to a mini stallion he was seized with, and prefers minis to another donkey, the odds of things working out seem favorable.

Thanks for the story of the mule Pam. Though we are in a similar habitat, it seems like your lion exposure is quite a bit greater than ours! Your description of behaviors matches others we have talked to.

Life is risk. You just try to minimize it where you can.

 

[Foxhaven]

Luke, Legend, and Samwise the donkey are home.

What an amazing animal. Sam was rescued and has had a hard life, but he is the sweetest, gentlest equine I've met. But he is NOT a horse, and you cannot handle him like a horse. This is going to be a journey of discovery. I can see why they have a reputation for stubbornness, but I think that says more about the human handler than the donkey. No, he will comply... he just needs some time to consider it.

After they've shared a fenceline for a couple days, I have been briefly introducing them to the same pasture under supervision. The biggest problem is our yearling! He is a little pill. He nips Sam's hocks, flanks, neck, chest, forelegs, and the most Sam does is a gentle pushing kick and lippy nibble of correction. Legend touches noses with Sam - and lets out a squeal. Then they stand there sniffing each other. Sam seems to prefer being with the minis to being next to them.

Yesterday I observed some very interesting behavior. Our smaller dogs, a Sheltie and Eskimo, were in the dog yard that abuts the paddock. Ty the Sheltie has been very interested in the horses, and they him - he just sniffs them and quietly wags. Well, with Sam there, I saw Sam intervene himself between the dogs and the minis, ears flat back, and running to the fence to give it a warning STAY AWAY! kick.

Then when I was separating them later, Sam took a moment to consider walking through the open gate. Luke the yearling needed no such time... and darted into the larger paddock. DOH! Sam of course followed. Now I needed to catch Luke, and Luke of course thought this was great fun - running in circles, avoiding me, running to Sam and nipping his chin, repeat until done. So I finally started to corner Luke, and Sam did NOT like that! He approached me from behind, ears flat and unhappy that I would corner Luke. He didn't act aggressively beyond that - and I praised him of course.

But this is exactly the kind of guarding behavior I was hoping for! And they seem to be forming a herd.

So far so good.

Sam came to me with a bit of an infection in his left rear hoof, I've been cleaning it and treating it with peroxide and Betadine as able. Doesn't seem to bother him until I go messing with it. Kinda worrisome that they didn't pick his hoofs much at the rescue place.