Prices of mini's going down the drain...

[wishful]

Ok, this is just my opinion now.... the market over the last say, 15 years has become 'glutted'. Minis used to be somewhat rare and exotic- now they are everywhere- mass produced in my opinion.
So so quality bred to so so quality or less. The horses in this price range may be healthy and correct, but I guarantee you they will probably not show up at Nationals and place!! Or even at a pointed show and place.

I have not had any trouble getting decent prices for decent horses and am VERY careful about what I breed. If it is pet quality, I sell at a pet quality price. I reduced prices quite a bit last fall as I was taking a journey overseas and needed the money to finish funding my trip, but they did NOT sell for $500.00!!

I think many more horses should be gelded and some mares just not bred. They are not good examples of the breed. Rather than 'mass producing' - be picky about what you breed/buy. Just because it can produce a foal, does not mean it should be bred.

I am not saying only breed show winners to show winners- as some fantastic horses will never see a show ring, but I have seen less than desirable horses being bred, and then there is no market for the offspring. Some of these places have over a 100 broodmares and are pumping out foals right and left. The market is getting filled up, but the GOOD ones will still bring a price.

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

I agree 100%, could not have said it better myself.

I would like to add that small farms have to "campain" of sorts til you get your name out there and even still it is difficult, due to mass production of pet qaultiy. I have had minis for 5 years now and my farm was small not many people knew me. I had a hard time selling top lines,(Boones Little Buckeroo, shadow oaks paul bunyan, egyptian king,fwf blue boy) You either have some that thinks 300 is a rip off or someone that will only buy if the farmname is widely known

: horses that I sold to better known farms were sold by the farm and they got 3 times their money. Gotta get out there and let them know who you are and what you have available.

Hang in there.

:

 

[Littleum]

I think prices (in big horses and Miniatures) are influenced by geographical location to a good point.... here in Texas, where are the $1,000 and under show quality horses? There's a good market down here- shows for both circuits, AMHR Nationals is just a state over and AMHA Worlds are right here.

Everything I've seen in the >$1,000 segment down here has had at least one major objectionable quality that explained why it had that price tag. Everything from the mare who never foaled to a training issue to a bad temperment.

Unfortunatly, everything I see that's farther away and "in the cheap seats" won't be a bargin by the time I have a trusted friend go look at it, the PPE done and then have it shipped down to me. Not counting the hassle, the headache, the phone calls and emails and videos and stress. I can take that money and shop that price point locally- hopefully with less stress and headache. It's a Catch 22.

That of course assumes that the horse is really a diamond in the rough bargin- a lot (NOT ALL, not MOST, just a good %) of what I see priced $1,000 or under, even in the weaker markets, usually really isn't anything too amazing or fabulous..... maybe a $500 colt who might get $750-$1,000 in a stronger market. So part of it also is there's just a lot of medicore stock out there to pick from...

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Get your self out there and get knwn.....that is the best advice on this whole thread. I look at attending the regional and national shows as advertisement. When people go there, they go up and down allllll the isles to see what is for sale, who is placing etc. I myself go thru the isles to see what is out there. Bruce and McCarthys sold several horses the first weekend of nationals thats true but they have been going and showing for several years. Also they have consistantly placed well in the amateur and futurity classes.... This past year one of the well known amha judges came looking for horses to buy for clients!!! I could have even sold Sweet Tart that first sunday for 7 times what I paid for him but I said no and they bought his brother instead..... It has to be the right person for the right horse at the right time. I have sold ever horse I produced here buy the time they were weaned except for 1 and he sold in Dec of his weanling year..... You do have to advertise.... a web site helps..... going to the shows and networking helps. You may meet someone who knows someone looking for your horse. If you just sit at the farm with out going to any shows and dont have a web site and just hope that the lil beginnings board will bring the people there, as wonderfully helpful as it is.... its not likely going to happen. Then you get to spring when your foals are arriving and the 6 colts you had last year are still hanging around so you run an add "price reduced, have to move to make room for new babies!" now you are in panic mode...... recomendation for 06...... dont breed the mares back till the previous two years colts are sold.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[vvf]

We have been raising Miniature Horses for 27 years now.

Through the years, I can't count the number of times that I have heard that comment ("what’s happening to the prices of Miniature Horses")

First of all, a good horse will still bring a good price.

I have seen people come and go in this business. Both big name farms and smaller farms as well. It seems to go in cycles every few years...you hear of new farms and then they are gone.

But yes, I agree, there are too many people breeding "just anything" because they have a mare and a stallion. But that is probably never going to change.

Although, the people that are actually serious about this breed; if they would intentially leave a mare or 2 open each year...at least that is a start. (and geld a few more colts)

I guess another thing that I commonly see is that so many new people who are just getting into the Mini business, think that they are going to get rich quick.

The one thing that we always tell people that come to our farm to look at our horses is: "first and foremost, you need to do this for the love of your horses" then if you make a little money, that is just the icing on the cake"

Believe me, the part of the country that I am from, we JUST don’t get those kinds of prices that are being asked for horses elsewhere. You really do need to have quality horses to get good prices.

A very wise horseman friend of mine always told me "it costs the same money to feed a poor quality horse as it does to feed a good one."

Believe me, I am one of the many serious Miniature Horse breeders that are in this for the long haul...and I am constantly "upgrading" my own herd of horses.

I think the quality of Miniature horses just keeps getting better and better every year.... and therefore, the price will reflect it.

I guess overall, I LOVE MY ADDICTION. :aktion033:

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Now I am sure I am going to get flamed for this but IMO--all the breeders out there who are breeding EVERY single mare EVERY single year are in my opinion no different then a puppy mill! I have 24 mares, I would NEVER think of raising 24 foals every year, I usually breed 2-3 and THAT IS IT, and there is nothing wrong with any of my mares, its MY choice NOT to overproduce foals, WHY--because I dont want to be considered a mini mill, and I care to much for my horses, and I have a good reputation with my horses, and people do seem to really appreciate that, I have no problem selling ANY of my horses and I dont sell them in the $100.00 to 500.00 range either, my horses have very good bloodlines,are all registered, but yet my prices are very reasonable for the quality....not quanity that I have, any horse I have sold has gone on to a excellent home I have seen over and over where breeders have SO MANY foals for sale and they start out with decent prices and end up dropping and dropping there prices, to where they are almost giving them away. Why cant these people wake up and just breed ALOT less?? I have 3 foals due this year and all 3 are already spoken for, (if I can part with them) I understand some only consider there horses a BUSINESS and breed them yearly....and lord forbid, if they go a year without having a foal, there being sold! These are the people that I consider running a mini mill, you never hear of some of these breeders saying..OH I RETIRED SO AND SO, she wont be bred again, and keeping her! NOPE--she dont make any money and off she goes being sold, why?? because most of these people dont want to have to support this horse if its not making them any $$. and yet, they claim to care about there horses. I just dont understand! Hay and transport is another reason I think so many have lowered there prices. Corinne

 

[Cathy_H]

About ten years ago that topic came up on this forum & I said there is an over production of miniature horses thus causing a saturated market.. Someone else posted, 'not so - we don't have near the numbers of such & such breed'............. We usually have 3-4 foals a year. Right now we have one mare in foal for this year. Several years ago we had 23 miniature horses, we now have 6 & plan on selling more...................... I have seen this topic on here at least once sometimes twice a year for years now. I still say the same thing I did ten years ago.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

I apologize if I upset those of you who seem to be answering this topic every year, I myelf am NEW I just got into mini's a year ago and I was just curious what everyones thoughts were.

I am glad this post received so many replies, I too don't think highly of farms that breed all their mares (if they have like 25 or more, not speaking of those of you who only have 3-4 mares or a small #), then expect to sell their foals as lovable show quality pocket pets, especially when you visit the farm and the foals are high tailing it to the farthest corner at the SIGHT of a person! (been there!). I too call those "puppy mill farms". I truly cherish small farms with just a few mares or that just have a few foals a year, because you know those foals get worked with daily and will be real love bugs =)

I also agree that yes you can find a great show quality horse almost anywhere for a good price, and it saddens me to see a horse with bad confirmation being sold as a stallion or broodmare and way overpriced...I myself am down to 2 mini's for my future project of refining appaloosa's, I carefully chose out a delicate appy filly and now chose a refined colt, and I took my time and searched EVERYWHERE, didn't just purchase 2 horses because they have organs to breed - good point whoever said that - I plan to stay small, I think it's great those of us who are into miniatures just for the love of having them, I have a goal with my project but I am having so much fun along the way =)

 

[user 488]

Quality always sells. That goes for any breed. Way, way, way, too many substandard horses breeding out there. But very few will fess up or even realize that they are breeding low rent animals.

It's so much more prevalent in minis because they are "cute" and people who know nothing can get involved with them more easily and cheaply than big breeds. And what is the first thing that most want to do? BREED those low quality pet animals. Too many also know nothing about proper marketing. I know of people who sell lesser quality because they have taken the time to figure out how to market properly.

Do I see anything changing? NO........who is going to buck up and say there animals are not breeding quality?

Now if you truly have a quality individual and it is not selling........look into your marketing techniques.

#1 Bad pictures can make even the nicest horses look bad. That's a starter!

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

lol I can't wait to see these replies....

 

[kaykay]

i have put so much thought into every horse i have purchased and I do think i have a nice herd but thats just my opinion

Last season i had 3 foals coming and had people waiting on all 3. unfortuantely we only had one live foal and he was sold as a gelding at 2 days old. After almost 5 years I "only" have 12 horses LOL. Its so funny to me that miniature horse people are just shocked that thats "all" i have and big horse people are shocked that i have "that many" So I guess its a perception thing. I still have never sold an intact stallion from my own breeding. Every single one of them (and some others) were gelded before being sold or shortly after.

I also think its funny that people are shocked that patches is 7 and has never been bred (although i did think she was accidentally bred last year but wasnt) We purchased her from people who had a ball training her to cart and then we had a ball showing her. Im in no hurry. I also have a 3 yr old mare that has never shown (waited for her to mature) and never bred and people are shocked by that. Again im in no hurry.

I do not think mini prices are going down the drain for people that breed for quality and get out and promote their farm and horses. You cannot expect to get 5000.00 for your horses if no one has ever heard of you or seen your horses at shows etc.

The market that is flooded is the pet market. I tell all the new people i meet THAT IS A MARKET YOU DO NOT WANT TO ENTER. Even breeding best to best will sometimes produce pet quality so its not something that should ever be strived for. You are so much farther ahead if you take your time and buy the absolute best horses you can afford vs buying 30 medicore ones.

People will always pay good money for a quality horse!

 

[Sun Runner Stables]

:aktion033: :aktion033: As usual Carol! :aktion033: :aktion033:

I was thinking the Same thing! Though I can understand how Minis can be both a business and a pleasure for some. For example, I have only a few minis, about 7 total. I had 1 foal last year, but was that because I didn't Want to have more foals? Not really, I just didn't have the right cross, and some just did not catch.

Do I go all out with repro drugs to get my girls bred every year, nope, Am I pleased when they do catch, you betcha.

However, upgrading your stock, and marketing is Really the key here. Living in an affluant area, I can sell pets for $1,500 to $2,500, without a whole bunch of effort.

However, what I call pets are ones that have no chance of competing in halter at a truly competative show.

Not just one that has an off bite or such, or has poor conformation. The idea is not to breed that kind of horse at All, remember>?

Does that mean I go out and buy hundreds to "make money">? as if that really happened.

:

I look at some horses on the LB board that say show quality, and want to ask "What show are they going to?" As previously stated, please tune me in to these perfectly propotioned araby headed $300 horses too!

I also think many get into this due to the get rich quick idea. I think out of the money I spent last year On horses, (buying not feeding or care) Might, Might be made up in the next few years in foals. Vet bills can put a major damper on income! However I DO expect the sale of my minis to at least break even on their feeding cost, and help with the showing.

Also, I bought two horses for about $7000 total, I later changed my breeding program and sold them for considerably less, for the good home factor, point being, up-grading your stock does not always mean throwing them out like bad company!

Though I have to say I have been pretty pleased with my mares, I am hoping for my best season yet this year, and may end up keeping more then selling, so I can keep progressing!

( P.S. My first year into minis, I had some so/so quality brood mares, bred to yucky studs, (Ah stupidity!) those mare's have since moved on to wonderful pet homes or have been retained as great kids horses....)

 

[user 488]

Let me add something here. The farm I am with manages National Champion Mares as well as stands a number of National Champion or World Champion Stallions. (Arabian) Every year the farm GIVES away a number of foals. Now how can National Champion bred to National Champion equal a give away baby??????????

EASY! Have you ever seen a beautiful couple with an less than glamourous child????? Ofcourse you have.

No matter how good the combination of the mare and stallion are, they are still not going to produce a winner every time.

This is just an example of the quality of breeding stock it takes to be successful. These pet quality minis just aren't going to cut it because the extremely well bred, or beautifully conformed, or winning horses are going to supply the market with enough pet quality foals. So if you are breeding substandard horses how will that help the industry?

Now the problem with some Miniature breeders, and I am sure this won't be popular, is that just because a big well know farm or small well known farm (who ever) produces horses that are by great stallions and out of great mares does not mean that everything they produce is worth a BIG BUCK or better quality than the next. To say that every foal a certain stallion (or mare) produces is worth X amount of dollars is silly. I have seen plenty examples of cute little high dollar babies turn into some pretty tragic individuals.

 

[Charlotte]

Supply and Demand. The supply of miniature horses has outgrown the available market.....The same way as the large breeds have.

Miniature horses used to be a novelty.....an exotic animal.....any miniature could bring a high price regardless of it's quality...they were hard to come by. So farms were developed with large numbers of mares in order to take advantage of the demand for foals. Quality was not always the goal, just lots of foals to sell. Unfortunately this business plan is still around, but the market isn't.

In today's market a person is more likely to succeed as a breeder by producing just a few high quality individuals and having a sound marketing plan. Part of that marketing plan should be the presentation of the horse for sale and that starts with a neat clean facility which is in good repair. The horses should be in 'good repair' too

Feet trimmed, health records up to date, manes & tails brushed etc. (oops! I better get to the barn with my brush! LOL )

And because so much of our marketing is via internet nowdays good pictures aren't an option, but a necessity! They don't have to be professionally made pictures, but study those pro shots to see how it's done..........angle, background, lighting, grooming of subject.

I wonder if there are any online marketing seminars around?

Charlotte

 

[Cathy_H]

I apologize if I upset those of you who seem to be answering this topic every year, I myelf am NEW I just got into mini's a year ago and I was just curious what everyones thoughts were. .......................... No need to apologize............. I just wanted to point out to the newbies that this is a topic that comes up every year & every year the answers are the same but worded differently...................... The demand is not there anymore for quanity- it is time to concentrate on quality & breeder responsibility, but I guess a lot of people don't see it this way.. Not flaming anyone, just the way I see it.

 

[remington]

Just to give you some hope I just finished paying a classy price for a classy filly and I live in Michigan....also paid a handsome price to get her here. (I live in the boonies) And guess what...I'm not a bit regretful. I am willing to pay a good price for a nice horse. Mostly because I know the work and worry that goes into getting a correct, healthy foal on the ground without mishap. I think it all depends on peoples goals...and you know we humans are a varied bunch!

 

[Dreamweaver]

Well, guys, as much as I hate to say it...Quality does NOT always sell.

For a little more than a year, I have been trying to completely sell my friends entire herd. She has several ill family members that she now must take care of and can't handle them and the horses. Anyway, Most of the herd of 50 have sold, but the prices were low (very low in some cases) to put them in a good safe home. Now, this lady has spent years buying horses and she has awesome horses with AWESOME bloodlines. Now she is down to a few and in those few she has some fanstastic mares. We are talk about a Bond Snippett Grand-daughter and her two Sr. daughters. The daughter are both by Bond Madam's Beau II who's standing stud fee is $1,500 the last time I checked. These are awesome double reg mares that have heavy bond breeding and I can't find a buyer for them. The fillies have been listed at $3000 and $4000 with the option to make an offer. There dam was purchased for $6500 and the owner figures she has close to $20,000 investested in her with the showing and training she has had. She has been offered at 1/4 of the invested price. Here is a few pictures of one of the daughters...

My feeling is that if I can't sell these mares without giving them away, the horse market in not what it used to be....

 

[DebiM]

I agree to a lot of the responses here, some I agree somewhat and some I just don't see as bad as they do. We do go through times were the demand is much lower than the supply. But then it cycles and I sell more horses in one year to new Mini owners than to establisted owners. The last couple of years I've gotten more for each horse combined than what I got total in the preceding 4 years. But the key as someone said is being willing to put the money you do make back into your breeding program.

As hard as it is at first you must also sell some of the horses that you believe aren't what you thought they were. I had to do that two years ago with some I had bought earlier on. I then double registered everyone I thought worthly of it over the last two years. We bought two new studs and brought Trios Manilla back to Louisiana. He's nineteen years old and the two mares bred to him for this year, one already being sold. You have to constantly reevaluate then sometimes even let some mares go you had not intention of. The last two mares I sold were only because I kept three of my fillies from last year.

I haven't seen many Minis priced 500 and down so can't attest to their quality. But in my opinion if you can sell at those prices then you can't have enough into your program. We've never sold one at those prices. I believe the least we've gotten for a colt was $1000 and he was only AMHR registered.

I also liked (as usual) what Carol said abt the farm giving some foals away from awesome parents. I've had a couple of breedings from my best stud and two of my best mares that just weren't as nice as I thought they would be. I didn't repeat that breeding and the mares had awesome foals with one of my other studs. It isn't just producing, a lot of thought has to be put into it if you expect to get out of it what you want.

Ha! I've been so busy lately that I think that's the longest post I've made in months! Been a long time since ya'll got me going on a thread. :saludando:

Debi

 

[mountain_waif]

.....

 

[shortymisty]

I agree quality doesn't always produce quality(look at Secretariat)but then again people see the miniature as an easy access for their kids to have a pony. I've had people looking for their kids and kids are absolutely terrified of the horse. Won't sell one like that and tell me that my prices are two high and they can go to the auction and pick one up for under $300. Well then don't insult me and go get the horse for $300. It's not only the miniature horse it's the horse market in general and like previous posts if you're not willing to market you have to ask yourself can you really command a high price? Reputation goes a long way and when you produce quality horses people are more than likely to come back to you when looking for their next show or good riding horse instead of the guy down the street selling just for selling's sake. Did that sound right :new_shocked:

 

[Kendra]

Last weekend I had the opportunity to attend the Alberta Horse Breeders and Owners Conference. One of the many excellent speakers was Juli Thorsen who spoke on just this subject, the changing horse market. Her presentation was so interesting, I've found myself putting a lot of thought into her information!

This isn't affecting just our breed, the horse market is changing industry wide. From what I understand, the primary factor is that the baby boomer generation (which is twice the size of the preceding generation, and twice the size of the following generation) has been driving the horse industry for 50 or 60 years. Starting this year, the first of the baby boomers start to turn 60 ... there is something like 1200 people turning 60 every day for the next 15 years. Many of those who have been the driving force behind the horse industry will begin to retire and the base of perspective owners and buyers will shrink. Unfortunately, the production of horses is currently set for a larger market, and there is becoming fewer and fewer people to buy them. In addition, due to the changing attitudes on equine slaughter, only a fraction of those horses slaughtered 10 years ago are currently going through the meat industry, which results in more horses on the market.

The nature of the market has changed as well. Those who are currently looking to buy a horse and the baby boomers and their grandchildren, and the horses they want to buy are well broke, older horses, a "been there, done that" type, certainly not a yearling or two year old prospect. Now this aspect may be a bigger concern for the rest of the industry than for us ... after all, grandparents and grandchildren are an excellent market for Miniature Horses!

If you get an opportunity to hear Ms. Thorsen speak, I hope you'll go ... I've only touched on one aspect of the changes taking place, but my garbled attempt to convey any more of what she said would only serve to confuse I'm afraid!