Questions about Greys genetically

[targetsmom]

Thanks for all the compliments on our mare - Jones Call Me Blue Admiration - all 30 inches of her.

I do hear what you say about grey masking the Pinto patterns, but as long as the Pinto association doesn't care, we can still register them and show them there. That is, if they are grey pintos. We keep telling people that our solid color foals (including the grey ones!) will be for sale. And being grey certainly didn't seem to hurt Blue Boy or Egyption King any!

I will watch this mare closely for melanoma as I sure hope to own her for a long time.

 

[kaykay]

the stallion i co own with fran is a true grey. we watched his foals show at nationals (from the first owner) and they sold as soon as people saw them. They didnt care at all that they could turn grey

A great horse is never a bad color

 

[Nancy G]

I love the true greys. Beautiful animals. I wouldn`t mind having a grey mare (or two) ~

: I sold my one and only grey and am hoping to have the chance to buy her back!

:

 

[HGFarm]

In 1975 the ApHC passed a rule to not allow breeding to grays and non appaloosa roans because of what it does to the coat patterns.

I am not familiar with breeding paints or pintos, but for those who love to breed 'horses of color', there is nothing more disappointing than getting a loud colored foal, and have it turn completely white.

I do not have any grays in my herd for this reason. There is nothing more stunning than some of the gray Arabians - they remind me of a fairy tale unicorn or magical horse of some sort.... but I breed first for quality, and then also for color too.

One of the tell tale signs is the white 'ring' around the eye as a foal- I think someone posted a pic of one here that is going gray, and you could already see the white around the eye in the coat. I have seen so many Appaloosas advertised in the Mini world as 'ghost leopards', 'few spots', etc... that are nothing more than grayed out and they have lost all their color.

So if you want your sharp pinto or Appy colors to stay... do not include gray in your breeding program.

 

[bfogg]

John,

Thank you for the way you explained the different color genes and how they work! I have tried to understand them for years and they way you had the street laid out it made sense and I could finally start to get a sense of how they worked!

Thanks again,

bonnie

 

[Ashley]

Karla, I am still convinced your mare is gray, foal is buckskin. THe mares tail tells the gray to me.

 

[Dona]

Okay--I'm going to stir the pot and toss this in: what about silver buckskins? Some tell me I have silver buckskins, some tell me I have grays. The foal never had rings around her eyes. Actually she had darker color around her eyes when she sheds out--it looks like eye shadow.

The dam changes color from light to darker with seasons, but she's not lightened permanently in the 4 years I've had her. (I just groomed her tongiht and she loks light, but she'll darken up again. In the summer she had flea bites and dapples. Both have darker legs (buckskin).

How does all this fit in with gray, or is it a whole different issue?

:

It IS possible to have a Silver Buckskin who also carries the gray gene. Do any of the "Silver Buckskins" in question, have a gray parent? If they keep darkening up I would think the gray gene is not involved.

Altho...you say they have "flea bites" in summer???? I would like to see a picture of what you are talking about here.

:

 

[Ashley]

I hope Karla dont mind as I went to her site. Here are you pics that make me think the colors I do.

Notice the white in the tail? A gray horses tail will turn white, bottom up. If she was silver I dont think it would be that much.

Couldnt find a good one of the foal. BUt she is dark, doesnt lighten in the legs, and you can see the gold hue in the face and what not.

Also, your sorrel pinto, I beleive is a silver bay.

 

[Dona]

I hope Karla dont mind as I went to her site. Here are you pics that make me think the colors I do.

Notice the white in the tail? A gray horses tail will turn white, bottom up. If she was silver I dont think it would be that much.

Couldnt find a good one of the foal. BUt she is dark, doesnt lighten in the legs, and you can see the gold hue in the face and what not.

Also, your sorrel pinto, I beleive is a silver bay.

Thanks for all those pictures...it helps a lot! This mare definitely looks "'Gray" to me too. But as I mentioned before...she "could" be a Silver Buckskin that is also graying out. She even has the "flea bites" typical to grays. Since she produced a beautiful little buckskin....I'm assuming she IS a buckskin (or silver buckskin) that also carries the gray gene. I had asked earlier if either parent to this mare was a gray...but didn't get an answer yet. At least ONE parent would have to be a gray for this mare to be carrying the gray gene. So knowing the true colors of the parents would help to solve this.

The foal looks to be a Buckskin right now.

:

 

[Dona]

Dona and Ashley--we were all posting at the same time. :bgrin I think Chloe's tail is more bleached than whitening. Their legs are the exact same color. I just can't imagine they aren't the same color. Everyone has to do a double take in the pasture to see who's who. Well, Chloe's pregnant belly gives it away lately.

:

I appreciate your ideas.

:

Dona--her background is Blue Boy, but I don't know her parents. Harriet knew her mother and grandmother and called Chloe a gray, but I've heard from so many she's buckskin....so I went with that. I don't think her legs will ever lighten. There's just been so little change in her over the last 4 years. I thought graying happened faster.

It's very weird to think Chloe's a graying Silver Buckskin and Blesing's a Silver Buckskin. But maybe she just didn't get the gene in one of her houses

: ....I guess time will tell.

My pinto was labeled a Silver Bay Tobiano Pinto with Sabino roaning....but that's for another thread.

Look at the face photos of Blessing & Chloe. Blessings face is much darker...especially around the eyes. See how light Chloe is around her eyes? I can see a significant difference in their colors.

:

And knowing that Blue Boy is in Chloe's background.....well that just about confirms (at least to me) that she is carrying the gray gene, and is actually graying out. Remember, grays will gray out in varying time frames. Some gray out very rapidly...while others can gray very slowly, and take a lifetime to gray out...and sometimes NEVER go completely white, keeping shading on knees, manes & tails.

:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Chloe is definitely Grey- I have never thought of her as anything else.

She looks as if she also has Dun- and I have experience of Dun + Grey in Shetlands- it seems to do the opposite of Silver and slow down the Greying process.

There is NO reason at all why Blessing cannot be Buckskin/Dun /Silver- I have my doubts about Silver as I have seen that amount of white/grey in the manes and tails of Duns with no known Silver although I cannot see any obvious dorsal- Karla you would have to answer that one!!

I think Whisper may be Silver Bay- it might be worth testing her- I am afraid I do not know the sire but I trust Ashley's appraisal of him, so I think it is safe to assume he is a Silver Bay.

These horses are so pretty- as has been said, even though I do NOT appreciate Greys (

) a good horse cannot be a bad colour!!

 

[Minimor]

Both have darker legs (buckskin).

Darker legs don't prove buckskin, that's a very typical trait of greys in general. This mare is a black going grey:

Tallie is 6 years old in this photo. This is her son, a year old in this picture:

Tallie is gradually lightening, but it is very gradual. We had a filly off this mare that seemed to be going white much faster than her mom. However, in the spring when we'd clip her she would clip out much darker again. Her yearling year she looked nearly white on her hindquarters coming out of winter, then I clipped her & she was just about black again.

How old is Chloe in each of the photos posted here? She looks to me to be buckskin (silver or not) going grey.

The one that has me stumped is my yearling filly. She is off the grey mare above. Sire is silver black carrying sabino (his sire is sabino and one of his yearling colts is very sabino roan--I would almost say he is greying, except that he can't be with no grey parent.) This filly was born black. No sign of white until she was 3 or 4 months old, then she started showing some white hairs all over. No grey goggles though--none as a foal & none now. Our first thought was grey, then we started looking at the other colt & thinking this filly is very similar, so maybe sabino, not grey. This spring the white hair distribution over her face & body isn't changing, but between her hind legs she is shedding out very grey. So, I guess I wait & see if she is jsut very sabino, or if she is greying from the underparts first.

 

[Jill]

Just throwing out that I'm another who loves true greys. I have a grey-palomino yearling filly and a grey-grullo 2yo stallion. I think greys are gorgeous from a fairy tale looking horses

:

Erica's Gone and DunIT2005 grey-grullo stallion, AMHR National Top 10 Halter / AMHA Halter Honor Roll

Fantasy Corrals Secret Treasure

2006 grey-palomino AMHR/AMHA filly

My filly above was born light palomino and she is actually DARKENING on her way to grey. Her legs are charcoal grey at this time, and her mane and tail are grey. Her undercoat is very dapply looking. Excited to see how she will clip out! I also have a silver buckskin filly that is close in age and their colors are very different in person. The grey has cool undertones and the silver buckskin has warm undertones.

Reading through the rest of the thread, I feel Karla's mare is definitely a grey.

It's like the difference between her mare (grey) and her filly (silver buckskin) is the same difference between my Treasure (grey, left) and Flirt (silver buckskin, right) ... See what I mean, cool tones / warm tones?

And just for further education, a picture of Treasure as a palomino foal. She how her "points" have darkened and her body color changed? (and that she grew into her ears LOL)

 

[Jill]

Just coming back again because I remember when Ashley sent me a then more current picture of Treasure before she arrived at my house, I also thought "well, maybe she's silver buckskin and not grey?". However, she is for sure grey (her dam is as well). Seeing her in person (and also knowing she has no silver background) makes it easy to see she's not really a silver buckskin. Plus, having my two now yearling fillies side by side growing up together really makes it easy to see the difference between silver buckskin and grey. Warm / gold tones (silver buckskin) vs. cool / grey tones (grey).

 

[Ashley]

Here are some grays.

First is one mare we own. She is the dam to Jill's gray filly. Both these mares were born bay.

Pictured here about about 4-5

Pictured here at 7 years old

This is her dam, pictured at 17 years old. She was around 10 when we got her and was not totally gray yet.

This is her when we first got her,

Now at 17

Here is a FULL sister to Jills filly

 

[Jill]

That's a good looking family tree, Ashley :bgrin

 

[Ashley]

Depends is the stud sorrel or palomino. SOme get it confused. What are the registured names of her parents. Maybe somebody will look up to see what color they were.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Ashley I thought you said the stallion was a Silver Bay???

Yes I think Chloe is a Buckskin (possibly Buckskin /Dun) gone Grey- but visually she is a Grey!!

Blessing could easily be either as her Dam a Buckskin going Grey or "just" a Buckskin- she does not have to go Grey, after all.

 

[Dona]

The stallion is Haligonian's Moving Target. I do not believe he is silver, just sorrel.

His other filly with my silver dapple is a silver bay, but we know where her silver came from.

:

Yes....Moving Target is a Chestnut/Sorrel Pinto...no silver that I'm aware of. He is the grandsire of both, my Apache and Lacy.

:

 

[Ashley]

No I said her other filly is a silver bay. Just noted that cause she said on her site that she is a sorrel pinto.