Really low prices response

[JWC sr.]

This was a topic string that needed to be responded to and somehow it went away, So here is our response

Wow, I am not sure where to start. There are so many things that I want to respond to. So I guess I will make a list!

1. Sales are a little slower right now, but that is always the case at the beginning of the year and we have had a number of folks indicate they are coming out as soon as it warms up a little. When the horses can be clipped, babies are born etc etc.

2. We have sold 5 horses since the first of the month and they all sold for within 15% of what we were asking for them. With the exception of one stallion that we were asking 7500.00 for and we sold him to a gentleman for 5,000 as he bought 2 mares with him.

3. Our upper quality horses have been selling last year and the first month of this year, additionally we see no reason to expect to see any decline in those type sales in 2009. The lower end pet quality horses that are sold also have sold at about the normal rate of sales for the last 13 months. The only change we made in 2008 from previous years is that we gelded all stud colts before they left the farm and they were sold without papers as pets. Additionally in talking to two other farms this morning here in Texas they are experiencing about the same things as we are, so I do not think we are special or an anomaly. The middle range horse is though harder to sell in todays market for all of us.

4. The key to sales in this or any other economy remains the same - advertising, good husbandry, planned/sucessful/proven breeding programs and pricing that is reasonable but not silly ( 150 for mares or 25,000.00 for a run of the mill mare etc etc as indicated in some of the posts above).

5. We personally have bought in the last 13 months, a colt, a filly and a mare and paid what we thought were reasonable prices. But we got what we paid for in our opinion spending $17,950.00 for the three of them. So we are buyers and sellers in todays market.

To sum it up, in our opinion it is a challenging time in this economy for any industry. But with that said we have observed over the years in the mini industry and also our regular business that most times people have a self-fulfilling prophesy. If they think things are bad and react that way then usually things are bad and get worse for them, if they are proactive, aggressive in marketing and generally feel good about themselves/what they are doing then the world seems to work a little better for them.

Are hay and feed prices high right now, you bet they are. Are the days of just producing average or less mini's and expect them to bring thousands of dollars gone, you bet they are.

BUT with a little work, effort and planning things can be and are still better in this industry than in any other equine market in the country.

My two cents worth and with that and 1.50 you can get a cup of coffee. Further let me say, I am truly sorry to hear some of you are having the problems you are indicating by your posts. I hope things turn around for you in 2009.

 

[kaykay]

I totally agree with everything said above

We noticed as soon as the holidays were over a huge increase in people calling and emailing on horses for sale. Just sold 2 last week.

I think it boils down to being proactive. Get your name out there, advertise, show your horses. I was talking to another breeder who said people are cutting their advertising budgets. And he said you know what happens when you stop advertising?? NOTHING happens. So true.

 

[Songcatcher]

Very true, and glad to see that some still have a positive attitude. When people CONTINUALLY post about how bad the market is (although we all know it has slowed) people become afraid to buy for fear that they can get it for half the price somewhere else. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy.

 

[Texasspook]

3. Our upper quality horses have been selling last year and the first month of this year, additionally we see no reason to expect to see any decline in those type sales in 2009. The lower end pet quality horses that are sold also have sold at about the normal rate of sales for the last 13 months. The only change we made in 2008 from previous years is that we gelded all stud colts before they left the farm and they were sold without papers as pets. Additionally in talking to two other farms this morning here in Texas they are experiencing about the same things as we are, so I do not think we are special or an anomaly. The middle range horse is though harder to sell in todays market for all of us.

Mr. Cherry,

I have met you once or twice and really admire your horses and what a nice family you have. I seldom post here and mainly just read what is going on. I do have to comment on selling geldings without papers as pets. The problem I have with this is sometimes these horses sell again to people who would like to do something with them performance wise and can't due to a lack of papers. My daughter has a gelding who in no way can halter or even do hunter, but he won the 2008 Central AMHA Open and Youth Obstacle Driving classes and placed Top Ten at the AMHA World show in both of these classes. I have a couple of friends who have hardshipped their unpapered geldings into AMHA to do performance classes. As long as they are already gelded I'm not sure I understand selling them without papers? Maybe you or others can explain it so I will see the reason behind it. I mean no disrespect or slam just maybe there is a reason I need to be made aware of.

Thank you for your time,

Traci

 

[Leeana]

I agree with everything you said, since the new year i have sold two horses, have a sale pending on one more and had inquires on horses that are not even for sale (however, cannot part with them two

).

 

[Joanne]

We too have sold two horses this year to two new buyers of miniatures, and have more people coming to look.

Both horses sold for what we advertised them for without the buyers trying to get a horse for less.

We are optomistic about the market as our horses are still selling.

This is our 16th year and we have worked hard on our breeding program. We parentage qualify our foals and do color genetic testing. We provide information, a new halter and lead, and a healthy animal.

We do this in good and bad horse markets.

People seem to appreciate the service and the quality of the horse they buy.

 

[JWC sr.]

Traci,

I understand the scenario that you mentioned as far as the geldings. And only the stud colts we felt were not suitable to be considered to be in the upper 10% of stud colts were sold without papers. Those (90% of the colts) we think make better pets as geldings and if folks had wanted a show horse then we could have offered them one that was registered with all the trappings of course with different pricing. Additionally most of our pet quality horses go out of the country, but a few were sold here in the area.

The vast majority of the show quality colts (we only had 9 total colts last year, IT WAS A GREAT FILLIE YEAR) that we have produced in the past were placed with youth and/or ammy. with papers as geldings.

All of the colts with the exception on two were gelded last year. We intend to geld all but the very best this year again also. This is to be our attempt to encourage the use of only the very best of the colts as breeding stock.

This approach is our way of handling things and works for us. It seems to work for our customers also.

 

[Amoreminiatures]

I agree 100% with your thoughts on the current situation, We have had an amazing interest in horses forsale and ones that have not been offered forsale, I think there is ALWAYS a market for a good horse..

Janice Silvio

Amore' Miniatures

 

[Katiean]

As mentioned, the horses may end up being sold and could have the potential of being a top driving horse (unless it has 3 legs) Why not just give the papers. Maybe charge an additional fee for the paperwork? I think if an animal is born of registered parents it should carry the parers it was born with even if it is a gelding. After all, in using that gelding as a driving horse it will be the work of the trainer and or new owner and not so much the breeding. JMO

 

[Sully]

I have always sold registered animals with papers. If the new owners wish not to transfer, then that's their perogitive. I always felt that the registration is their claim to fame as it were, it's who they are, why take that away from them? If they're gelded, then there's no issue of breeding inferior animals, so why not. But thats me.

 

[MountainMeadows]

I guess I have to ask: If you wanted the papers on the gelding that John sold you, would you be willing to reimburse him for the cost of the procedure? In our area that could easily be $250 for a standard gelding and a lot more if there was a retained testicle -upwards of $1500 in some cases.

Just curious, I see several who believe that the papers should go with the horse no matter what, and in general I agree, but I do think that the seller's costs should be covered by the buyer - only seems fair to me.

Stacy

 

[Texasspook]

Thank you John for your answer, and as to you Stacy I can see the downside of having to spend more on a colt to geld him than he is worth as a pet quality mini. Many people don't want to spend more than they have to. I still just hate to see a horse leave without his papers because you don't know where they will end up down the road and many people get into minis by buying a cheap gelding to mess with and many pet quality horses have to potential to be some type of performance horse down the road.

Sorry John didn't mean to hijack your topic and I commend you for only wanting to breed the best conformation stock.

Thank you again,

Traci

 

[Songcatcher]

Let me add, and I'm speaking for myself only, when you buy a registered horse, you are buying more than a horse. You are buying a reputation. While some may not consider that very valuable, others do and deserve to be compensated for it.

 

[JWC sr.]

Our approach is to minimize the number of colts that are out there as potential breeding horses. I wish there was a way to render some fillies as non-breeders, such as reasonable surgery, non breeding papers for the registry with a micro chip or something.

If we make the decision that the colt is not of breeding quality then the best way to insure that they do not enter the breeding pool is to geld them.

As far as selling without papers, the reasoning behind that is pretty simple. If we decide they do not have potential as driving horses, halter horses or one of the hunter/jumping etc classes then we sell them without papers as pets only. We have been at this a long time and we may make a mistake from time to time in the evaluation process, but normally I like to think we can recognize potencial in the majority of the babies we produce.

Anyone that breeds many horses and tells you that they never produce pet quality albeit good looking pet quality is not telling you the truth. We usually get a small percentage that are and each year the quality of those pet quality gets better and better, but to us are still pet quality.

Last year of the 9 colts we produced it went like this. 2 were kept as colts, 3 were gelded but are being shown as geldings or being offered for sale as geldings and 4 went as pet quality to a petting zoo in Mexico with no papers.

I understand everyone's thoughts along the line of what if a horse needs to be registered later in life to be used for a certain disipline, but this is the best way we have come up with to deal with all the problems associated with this issue. Not perfect, but our approach after much consideration.

Such as colts being used as breeders when they shouldn't be, stallions being used as pets for children with the associated problems of being a stallion thereby hurting a kid and/or giving the breed and our farm a bad name etc. etc.

I by the way enjoy the back and forth of topics like this as it always gives me things to think about to try and continue to fine tune the approach our farm takes of different issues.

As usual thanks for the interest and responses.

 

[Minimor]

I guess I have to ask: If you wanted the papers on the gelding that John sold you, would you be willing to reimburse him for the cost of the procedure? In our area that could easily be $250 for a standard gelding and a lot more if there was a retained testicle -upwards of $1500 in some cases.

No, I would not pay those kind of "extra" costs....I do want papers on any horse I buy, and I would simply go & buy elsewhere, even if I have to bring the colt home & have him gelded here at my expense. Gelding cost here is $75 for a standard procedure; crypt surgery for a Mini is $300

No papers = no sale as far as I'm concerned.

 

[xxs]

I believe that the papers belong to the animal...regardless of species. If the animal is already registered, it isn't costing any more for the owner to sell with the papers....the money has already been paid. If the animal is not yet registered, the buyer should have the option of papers or not, at a price that would include the papers if the buyer wants them. To take away an animal's identity is just wrong! The pet buyers want to have pride of ownership in having a registered animal too!

Even if the horse does nothing but keep the lawn mowed! What are YOU going to do with them? Throw them away? I KNOW what some people do with them......

 

[JWC sr.]

In my opinion the papers do not belong to the animal or to a perspective new owner.

They actually belong to the registry and our farm. The purpose of registered animals as versus grade animals is to be able to track the bloodlines of specific animals and by doing so be able to improve the breed as a whole. By controlling the animals that we produce that are issued registration papers, we effectively are moving at least our own herd towards what we consider as a better horse more suited for the purposes we are breeding them for. IE: driving, halter or whatever. In most cases with a little effort a life purpose can be found for 99% of the horses in the industry. Additionally just because a horse may never enter the show ring, they are just as deserving of proper care and love of any owner that has the privilege to own them.

All of our babies are registered as weanling's and then if the quality is not what we want it to be for whatever reason, the papers are destroyed. Additionally all of our babies are DNA'ed, so I am not sure what the one poster meant by "you KNOW what some people do with them" comment meant. The days of issuing fake papers is fairly uncommon now days and at best a very risky business. Anyone that does it is risking severe retribution from the respective registry. Which is as it should be.

Just because a horse is not registered does not mean it cannot lead a healthy and productive life for its new owners as a pet. As long as they are placed in new homes that are fitting for them. They are not throw away horses, just horses that we believe do not need to be in the breeding pool. By adhering to the constant attempt to upgrade our herd each year the number of "Pet" quality horses get less and less, which is exactly what we intend to have happen. Improve overall quality and ability to perform with function and beauty.

Also, I would be willing to bet that many of the horses that we geld and/or sometimes sell without papers are of better quality as far as conformation etc. than many that are registered each year. But the point is still that if you see a horse with "Cherryville Farms" in the name you can bet we have done everything we can to insure that it is bred to the best of our ability and has redeeming characteristics that we have seen in that particular animal.

I hope this better explains why we do what we do, but at the same time I respect the difference of opinion on the subject. Again I think it is healthy for us all to discuss the different aspects and approaches to these wonderful little guys we call mini's.

 

[Mona]

John, I understand what you're saying in parts of your discussion, but yet not in others. I am wondering how selling a colt already gelded, with papers, is harming your farm name? If people are breeding, they should not feel ashamed of anything they produce...it's all a part of the learning process, and, as a part of the process of raising animals, we also understand that even when breeding for top quality show animals, there are bound to be some "pets" that come from those breedings. Why would a pet quality horse not make a good 4H pal for a child? They need to be registered for 4H in order to show, so even if the horse is not top National quality, a youngster can still have fun showing that horse locally, and that may result in them wanting a better quality as they mature. They can show it locally in their fairs etc. in halter, driving, jumping, obstacle, whatever. It would have to be a pretty darned poor quality horse to not be able to do this.

I think what many people do (not directing this part at you specifically John), is take away the papers when selling for such low prices, not because of the quality, but because they are not getting the prices they want for them with the papers. I have seen this time and time again, with dogs and horses. 2 prices...one set with, one set without. I just don't understand why not?? The foal is already registered, so it's not costing you any more, the colt is already gelded, so he cannot be used for breeding, so I really don't see any reason for not providing the papers to the new owner. I would understand this more if it was a mare/filly being sold as a pet, since spaying is a complicated surgery for a mare, and many vets won't even consider it unless it is a life or death type situation. Even though it would not guarantee the horse would not be used for breeding, it might be a deterrent, when coupled with a good sales contract. When people mention selling these colts without papers...may I ask you then, how many fillies are ever sold without papers for the same reasons? The odds of the same "pet quality" offspring would appear in both sexes, but I think we as breeders feel it is the fillies that bring better money overall, because they can be bred from, and thus, the reason we are so flooded right now.

EDITED TO ADD: Thank you Muffntuff for your message alerting me to the fact that to show in 4H the animals DON'T need to be registered. I am sorry, that was my mistake.

I sold 5 horses (3 fillies, 2 colts) to 4H students last Fall and I thought their 4H leader told me at that time that they needed to be registered to show. I do not have any personal knowledge or experience with 4H, so I was going by that. After my message from Muffntuff, I called the 4H leader and asked, and was told no, 4H does not require it, but they (4H leader) also bring their 4H kids to local shows where registration is required. That is where I was mixed up. Sorry for my false information in my previous post!!

 

[horsehug]

On the topic of selling with or without papers, I agree with Minimor, Jo Ann and Mona.

Susan O.

 

[Marty]

Getting back to the original topic, I'm not lowering my prices to give away prices. Nope. No fire sales here. I'll be happy to negotiate price to the perfect home absolutely, but I'm not in a panic about selling and I would rather sit on my horses (which I do) than give them away for next to nothing to make room for more. Makes no sense to me. What makes sense is to not breed so many horses in the first place that people do have to panic when room and money runs out. However I have done nothing to promote my horses and that does need to change so I had better get a move on and do something about that. I'm just slowwwwwwww and eventually I'll get a round tuit.

On the topic of papers; You would all be very surprised at some of the horses that pass through CMHR that have originated from some top breeding farms with no papers. You all know from time to time we get some super nice horses in that make you go "wow". Having no papers hurts these horses from being adopted because they cannot be shown. We've been able to track down a few here and there but it makes things very difficult. If the papers were allowed to stay with the horse, many of ours would become much more adoptable. Papers can make the difference in their future 100%.

In my opinion the papers do not belong to the animal or to a perspective new owner.

They actually belong to the registry and our farm.

Mr. Cherry, I highly respect you and I think you are a good guy, but I differ with this statement. I feel the horses do very much belong to the horse. Its their DNA on them. My birth certificate belongs to me, not to my parents. Just like a doctor drawing my blood. That's my blood in the test tube, it does not belong to the doctor. Just my humble opinion.

Crawling back into my cave now.

Have a great day everyone. The sun is shinning in Tennessee today!