Seeking advice from experienced breeders

[targetsmom]

As mentioned on another thread and on FB, we lost another foal yesterday, at 299 days gestation. In 5 years of breeding, 2 (or maybe 3) mares a year, we have had 1 false pregnancy, 1 late term abortion (breech, requiring hospitalization), 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac (including yesterday's), 2 dystocias, 1 of which survived (Max) and died this year, 1 early fetal loss, and of course a mare or two that didn't settle, and ONE uneventful delivery resulting in a still living mini. I know a lot of comments have been made about our "bad luck" but I think it is clear by now that we must be doing something wrong. And I doubt many people would blame us if we gave up breeding completely, but we aren't quite ready to do that. So I am asking for your help to identify how we might improve our "luck".

What we do now: Hand breed to accurately predict due dates, move mares to foaling stall at 300 days, check milk (with or without test strips), have Equipage with pager, camera on Mare Stare, watch the mare's diet (no fescue), add a vitamin supplement with selenium, use Regumate if we think that will help, give prefoaling shots at around 300 days, and have given Pneumabort, (but not this year)! I also have several books on foaling, read cover to cover, college degrees in Animal Science and Animal Diseases and spent lots of time at the UConn sheep barn delivering lambs. Our vet lives nearby and we work very closely with him on all the mini care. Our SOP is to call him when our Equipage goes off and he (and his wife) can get here in time to help. I would guess this is WAY more than many of you do, yet you are enjoying your new foals right now, or anxiously awaiting them, while we are waiting for the results of a necropsy.

My suspicions are that Rhino is an issue, as we had sick horses last fall (the whole herd except the mare that just lost her foal). We did not give Rhino shots this year, because (I admit) I felt the foal was already a goner when everyone was sick.

Q1. Should we give Rhino shots more often, especially during show season (we do show and can't really separate the show and non-show horses)?

Q2. Guess we should always give the Pneumabort shots??? That seems to be a "Yes".

Q3. Should we use Regumate on all the mares?

Q4. Should we have every dead foal necropsied? Just found out yesterday how inexpensive and easy this is, and wish I had known when Max died. The lab at UConn charges LESS for a necropsy than we paid for burial (or than they charge for disposal). I think the answer here is YES.

Q5. Should we change stallions/mares? We did re-home one mare that we couldn't get to settle after years of trying, but I would really hate to do this without specific reasons. The 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac were sired by different stallions. Our stallion is about 30" and the mares are either about the same size or taller. We do not plan to breed Sox again, even though her foaling history before we got her is outstanding (and why we bought her). We will be training her to drive.

Q6. Is there something inherently "wrong" with our breeding stock?

Q7. One thing I have considered is to buy a "three-in-one package" but our finances are not great at the moment. If hubby gets a job, we might think more about this one.

What else can we do????? Open to suggestions..

Thank you!!!

 

[chandab]

I doubt your doing anything "wrong" and it does sound like you do more than many. Any chance of too much selenium? [You mentioned adding a supplement with selenium.]

I honestly have no ideas or suggestions, as I've not had much luck with breeding, but attribute most of my problems to a subfertile stallion (who apparently got 2 mares bred for this year, after 4 years of nothing). [He's getting gelded in the next few weeks, and last fall I was able to get a Top Cat son from LKF, so he'll be given a chance this spring.] My one and only live filly is by my other stallion; and the only other foal born here was from a mare I bought bred, he came pre-mature and didn't live long.

My only suggestion would be to test your water, if you have well water (city/county water is probably fine). If I remember correctly, high nitrates in the water can cause fertility issues.

And, have you had mares cultured to be sure they are healthy, inside and out? And, what about stallion testing for fertility?

 

[targetsmom]

Thanks for ideas Chanda. the selenium is just one thing in a vitamin supplement so I don't think they get too much. The only mare that had trouble settling is the one we re-homed, and I think her issues were due to Lyme Disease. The others settle fine, and Sox has always carried to term, but lost one to dystocia and 2 not getting out of sac, plus she had the uneventful delivery. Mira seems to have issues carrying to term and we have given her Regumate that did help. From the two foals Buckshot has sired, we are thrilled with him - from fertility, ease in handling, disposition, the way he treats the mares, to what he produces! We have a new mare to try this year too, our CC Call Me Sirs daughter.

Culturing mares is a good idea....Have not done that consistently.

 

[Reble]

The only things I can think of that might help

but sounds like you have already done all you can.

So sorry you have had this bad luck sure wish it would turn around for you.

If you can would not hurt to try a new stallion

Flush your mares, and give penicillin shots for 5 days.

than breed and yes, give Pneumabort shots but start at 3months, 5 months, 7 months and 9

I am sure you have them on a good feeding schedule like mare and foal feed during their last couple of months before foaling and sounds like you give mineral supplements.

Wish you the best, maybe someone else can add to this.

 

[Charlotte]

Like Miniv, I doubt there is anything you are doing wrong, but maybe you are doing too much? It really sounds as if you have some kind(s)of enviornmental issue going on.

My first suggestion would be....seperate the breeding herd from any show horses if possible. And take care not to cross contaminate...clothing, shoes, tools etc. Also keep any horses coming and going from your farm vaccinated for rhino (and I do flu also) every 90 days as long as they are out in public. Any new horses which are to come to your farm must have had a rhino vaccination in the past 90 days and would be quarantined for 30 days after arrival at your farm. This pretty much eliminates your danger of spreading Rhino to your breeding herd.

Here, I have removed as much exposure to toxins as I can figure out how to do. No vaccinations after a mare is bred. No deworming after a mare is bred (do periodic fecal egg counts to monitor your parasite load). The exception to the deworming here is a late fall deworming with an ivermectin/praziquantal product.

No pesticdes, no herbicides, no fertilizers.

We had to remove 12 black walnut trees due to a chemical which they contain...actually all nut trees produce this and might be a problem.

Know what grows on your farm that the breeding herd is exposed to and know if these plants have the potential to be a problem.

You might want to check your pasture grass and your hay for nitrate levels. High nitrate levels can cause deformaties in developing fetuses and can cause death even in a full size mature horse.

Check that any supplements that you add to a comercial feed product are not going to throw off your vitamin/mineral balance. Talk with the manufacturer of your feed.

Begin by 200 days gestation checking mares for premature udder development which often means placentitis. (treatment is regumate till live foal is delivered, SMZs (for the length recommended by vet...I usually give 10 days per month) and banamine for a couple of days at the beginning of treatment)

Be aware that miniature mares may have a live healthy foal at 290 days so the mares should be observed closely starting 30 days prior.

It is unlikely that your stallion or mares are to blame for all of these issues.

Foals not getting out of the sack are usually the result of there not being a foaling attendant present.

I hope some of these suggestions help you. I know first hand how heartbreaking and frustrating issues like this can be.

Please share with us what you decide to do and what the outcome is. As hard as this is for you, you are helping us all to learn.

Charlotte

 

[attwoode]

I'm not sure of anything to point out specifically becasue it sounds like you've had a number of problems. All things that I've heard others have had happen to them too. However, if you'd like to set yourself up for better success, You could consider purchasing proven mares 6-12yrs that have had several foals easily already. Be prepared that young refined mares may be very tight for their first foals. Plan for your mares to be watched around the clock when they are ready to go. Don't bring in outside horses when your mares are bred. If you think any problems may be linked at all to your stallion (such as lack of refinement or proportion issues in foals that have not made it) you could also breed to a stallion with a better live foal ratio. Best of luck to you. Hopefully things will be better in the future.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'm so sorry Mary. I missed the post about your lost foal. I know how much your horses mean to you and how sad the losses have been. Hugs to you.

I agree with Charlotte about a possible environmental issue, but that can be like finding a needle in a haystack.

One question I have, and please do NOT take this as an accusation, it's simply a question...how is it that a couple of the foals haven't made it out of the sack? Were they not on camera or not testing ready or the pager not work? And again, not blaming, I've had babies not make it out of the sack when the mare foaled with no signs, etc.

Also, is it possible you're doing too much? Just my personal philosopy...no shots once bred for the mare. Period. I know others strongly disagree though.

Again, so sorry about your loss. You really do try to do everything right.

 

[targetsmom]

Good ideas... plenty of food for thought, and a couple of replies.

The mare (Sox) that we have had the worst luck with (3 dead foals) had the BEST foaling history and why we got her. Four great foals in 4 years, easy to get in foal easy to deliver, we had seen all the foals, AND most were sired by our stallion's paternal half brother. Great bloodlines too. Sounds like a dream mare, right? The newest mare has also had an impeccable foaling history although not all her foals seem to have been registered. Both mares were in the 7-9 year age range. I am not about to breed my all around show and driving mare Princess.

Charlotte - I thought about Rhino flu shots every 3 months and wondered if that should be everyone, but you only give it to the ones that leave the farm? We weren't able to separate our herd before but we recently (last week!) moved our big horse, and can now separate the broodmares from the show animals to some extent.

Forgot to mention all our horses are on daily wormer and are also paste wormed twice a year as part of a colic insurance program.

Also, with our bad luck it seems like we often have horses coming and going from the hospital. I doubt that helps.

I was checking the udder on this mare and she started bagging up last week at around 290 days, which I figured was on schedule for a mid May foal. I hope I will know more from the necropsy, but it looked to me like the foal was not fully developed - e.g. very short hair. i KNOW I messed up badly the first time this happened, but in both cases the foal and the placenta were delivered together and I suspected Rhino both times.

Edited to respond to Parmela: The first time the foal didn't get out of the sack the mare was on Mare Stare and I literally turned my back for 5 minutes to catch Target for the farrier. One minute she is eating then 15 minutes later when I check her again, there is a dead foal in the stall and 6 messages on my machine.

This time she was on Mare Stare but I was planning to put the alarm on her at 300 days - which would be today. Not thinking she was this close. No one called this time. Again, I don't think this foal was full term.

 

[eagles ring farm]

I would not consider us real experienced breeders but we have had 16 live foals since 2005

we lost 5 all together -

-1 in 2009 that with more experience we could have saved she was a hip lock got her out finally but not in time.

-1 foal who was breech and our vet did a fantastic job getting the foal out, with the mare being just fine. this was a mare we purchased in foal

-2 aborted at maybe about the 8-9 mo range

-1 colt we had to put down at birth for laxation of the patellas in both back legs also a mare we bought in foal

so for breeding minis I guess we have been lucky.

You have had it very tough - for the 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac I have to think you weren't there when they foaled.

Just a thought someone on here mentioned long ago that mares foaling without your assistance are better foaling outside because we tend to make our bedding so soft it doesn't help to tear the sac and the roughness of the ground is actually more suited for that task.

We foal our mares under camera in our barn but the only foalings we have missed were outside during the day and they went fine without our help.

Our barn is also very close to our house and with the monitor on in the bedroom my husband is a very light sleeper which comes in real handy for marestaring. We are usually out there before the foal is out I think only 1 mare ever beat us.

We always give Phenabort (sp?) shots at 5,7 sometimes we skip the 9 mo shot sometimes we don't it depends on wether I'm worried about it at the time. But we have purchased 2 mares who didn't get Rhino shots and we got them quite close to foaling and they did fine without the shots too.

With your mares 30" maybe thats where you are having some trouble we have 1-30" mare who had the breech in 2009 she did have a normal healthy colt last year when bred to our 28.5" stallion,but the little mares make me nervous not as much room for error when foaling IMO. Our other mares range from 32-37" I am alot more comfortable with the taller mares and smaller stallion senario.

also sorry sorry about your lost foal yesterday

 

[ohmt]

I don't have anything to add, but just want to say that I am SO sorry for your losses and for everything you've gone through. Hugs, hugs, and more hugs.

 

[valshingle]

My suspicions are that Rhino is an issue, as we had sick horses last fall (the whole herd except the mare that just lost her foal). We did not give Rhino shots this year, because (I admit) I felt the foal was already a goner when everyone was sick.

Q1. Should we give Rhino shots more often, especially during show season (we do show and can't really separate the show and non-show horses)?

Q2. Guess we should always give the Pneumabort shots??? That seems to be a "Yes".

Q3. Should we use Regumate on all the mares?

Q4. Should we have every dead foal necropsied? Just found out yesterday how inexpensive and easy this is, and wish I had known when Max died. The lab at UConn charges LESS for a necropsy than we paid for burial (or than they charge for disposal). I think the answer here is YES.

Q5. Should we change stallions/mares? We did re-home one mare that we couldn't get to settle after years of trying, but I would really hate to do this without specific reasons. The 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac were sired by different stallions. Our stallion is about 30" and the mares are either about the same size or taller. We do not plan to breed Sox again, even though her foaling history before we got her is outstanding (and why we bought her). We will be training her to drive.

Q6. Is there something inherently "wrong" with our breeding stock?

Q7. One thing I have considered is to buy a "three-in-one package" but our finances are not great at the moment. If hubby gets a job, we might think more about this one.

A1&2 - All of our horses are vaccinated for flu/rhino and all pregnant mares get Pneumabort at 3,5,7, and 9 months. Our pregnant mares are kept as far as possible from the show horses. The stallions (sires) are show horses and do have contact with the mares while being bred and then the mares are moved to their own pasture. Flu/rhino shots are only good for about 2 months, I believe.

A3 - My vet told me that most last trimester abortions are due to infections (bacterial and viral) and most first and second trimester abortions are due to congenital defects and hormone imbalances. This is obviously a simplification, but can give you some guidelines. We will give Regumate to mares that bag early (along with Uniprim and Banamine) or have a history of frequent abortions.

A4 - You can have dead foals tested for EHV (the virus that causes abortions), otherwise we usually don't bother unless the vet suggests it.

A5 - I don't breed small mares. Our smallest is 31" and she is only bred to 32" stallions as she likes to 'cook' her babies for almost 11 months.

A6 - I can't answer that.

But here are some things that we do differently from you. And this is due to a couple of years of increased mortality among mares and foals. After the mares are confirmed 30+ days pregnant, they are given a Casliks and moved away from the show horses. They are given Pneumabort at 3,5,7 and 9 months. Their foaling shots are given starting at 9 1/2 months and are spread out over a week or more. We do not give Strangles vaccines to pregnant mares (they get them when the foal is a few weeks old). We slowly increase their feed starting about 275 days when they are brought into the barn (near the show horses who are done showing by then). Any mare that has a history of foaling prior to about 320 days (even if the foal was fine) is started on Uniprim at about 9 1/2 months. And here are the kickers - Foalerts are stitched in at about 300-310 days and have been under camera since they moved into the barn. When the mare really bags up, she is taken to the vet who foals her out. Yes, it may be expensive, but it is well worth it to me. We just breed less to allow for the extra expense. Most mares are flushed for 3 days after foaling.

Oh another crucial point - no new horses are brought onto the property period once the mares come into the barn.

Many people will have different systems that work for them. I know a lot of people who let their mares foal unattended in the pasture. I only breed 1-4 mares a year and each foal is eagerly awaited, so I shoot for a 0% mortality rate.

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

If we have a mare that aborts early we put her on regumate. We do not put all the mares on it.

If a mare aborts we have her cultured to make sure there is nothing going on in there.

We always give pneumaborts.

We always prefoal.

 

[Minimor]

What kind of vitamin supplement to you give? I know a few people that were having problems with foals not getting out of the sac. They changed to a different mineral supplement, and had no further problems. With the right minerals it seems that the sac is thinner & easier to break--and quite possibly the foal is that much stronger. I know that with the foalings we've had, the sac has generally broken very easily, so if the foal moves at all, the sac just separates & the foal is out. That is as it should be.

If rhino was an issue in this latest loss a necropsy should clarify that for you. I don't know if I'd suggest a necropsy every time, but if you suspect rhino then it would be a good thing to have that checked out so that you know for sure.

 

[Marty]

You've had a horrible go of it, I'm so sorry. Certainly not an expert having only 9 foals but here's my take and I'm sure many will disagree on some or all of it.

1. Firm believer not to have a horse on daily wormer.

2. I do not do regumate

3. I do not do rhino or strangle shots

4. I have a closed barn. No one comes in and out like a showhorse would come and go back and forth to shows.

5. I always thought that it was better if the broodmare had "child bearing hips" and a little longer back and learned along the way also a vet should determine if the pelvis can actually pass a foal.

6. No selnium. I found adding selinum to the diet can actually backfire and decided against dabbleing with it. Too many discrepencies on the amount to give and if overdosed can cause trouble so I put out ample free choice minerals and mineral blocks, feed a good feed 3 times a day to the broodmare and quality orchard grass hay supplmented with alfalfa hay and hope that covers all the bases. If the foal is born with lax tendons (it happened once) its been easily resolved in a matter of days.

7. No grass 60-90 days before foaling.

 

[Eagle]

I am so sorry for you loss, I lost a foal last year so I know how hard it is.

Here in Italy things are a bit different. My stallion gets tested for 7 different things, 1 of which is Rhino, he was negative until last year and then it came back positive. The mare I have up on marestare now is the guilty one. She carries Rhino and passed it on to him. She gave birth to a foal last year that I found dead and still attached to the placent, I don't know if this year it will be different but I have her on cam to try. Here it is fundamental that you vacc for Rhino or your foal will not make it. I personally would have all your horses tested to see if they carry it and then go from there. I will not be breeding my positive mare ever again and this year was an accident. It is just too much hardship for me and the mare. The possibilties of a positive mare giving birth to a healthy foal are just too low.

To find out if a dead foal is positive I think the test is done on the placenta and not the foal but I might be wrong.

All my other mares have given birth out in the field and I have never had any problems. If I close them in the barn at night they will give birth during the day. I think that not only the ground helps break the sac but also outside they get up much quicker which also rips the sac,

I also give the girls a blood test at about 7 & 9 months which tells me the levels of selenium etc.

What ever you decide to do I wish you all the best

Renee

 

[kaykay]

Many necropsies will come back inconclusive

My vet is now saying to give rhino before breeding the mares and then at 3, 5, 7 and 9. You have to give it to all of them to truly be effective. If a mare has a late term abortion always assume its rhino and clean up the area immediately. Never let other mares sniff the area etc.

We also never bring in new horses during foaling season

I do not use regumate

Make sure your mares are at good weight before and during gestation. Not fat and not thin. Either extreme is not good. Feed good hay and feed.

Foals not breaking the sac really has nothing to do with the stallion. It could have something to do with what they are eating; but even then small foals tend to have trouble breaking sacs so if you breed smaller minis you just have to watch. No one can watch every second and bad things happen.

Carry a cell phone and put it on your marestare so that if this happens again people can reach you. I always have mine in my pocket just in case.

I will probably get flamed but breeding smaller minis - does increase the percentages of foaling issues. When I first started I bred the 30" range and had lots of issues. As our vision changed and our minis got taller our foaling issues went way down. This is why I give props to all the farms that breed the smaller ones!

 

[Margaret]

My heart goes out to you on your losses.

I have not yet lost a foal, and I have been breeding for over 10 years.

There are some things that I do different that I can share with you to consider.

Long ago I spoke to a large pasture farm breeder with around 30 mares, that told me that she does not give alfalfa to her broodmares. Just grass hay..and pasture.

I asked her why, and she told me that Alfalfa tends to make the sacs tough and when unmonitored the foals cant get out.. She mentioned that let her mares foal out naturally in her pasture and rarely ever looses a foal this way.

#1 So just to make sure in case I ever canot attend a birth, I dont give Alfalfa to my broodmares either.

And I do confess,- most of my births have been unattended, however unintentional it was.

#2 I also dont vaccinate my broodmares with anything or de-worm them durring their gestation. ( this includes daily de-wormer)

And I wait at least a month after foaling, before re-introducing a first time mild wormer to the mare.

(intresting note on vaccines: Women also dont get vaccinated durring pregnancy)

#3 I also provide a balanced Mineral Block called Purina 12-12 from the get go of every pregnancy, as it contains no salt, and it is balanced to contain all the necessary minerals in the right ratios to keep a horse healthy.

( this keeps you from playing the mineral guessing game.)

Another intresting note: if a horse is forced to ingest salt with its minerals than it may avoid getting its full quota of minerals due to having to ingest more salt.

( this is why I offer their salt block seperate from their mineral only block.

The 12-12 mineral block is minerals only, and lasts a long time and you will find that the horses take big chunks off of it at first because of what they were lacking.

No need to worry, they will eliminate what they dont need, and slow down after that.

#4 Also there was an recent article in the may/april issue of the miniature horse world magazine, that talks about certain mare body types that are more predisposed to having foaling complications than others. It cant hurt to check it out. If you dont have it I can send you a copy.

Well thats all I can think of, but it may help for next time.

I wish you well.

Mary

 

[targetsmom]

Thank you everyone - there is a TON of information provided in here and I hope it can also help others.

A lot has been said (rightfully so) about the two unattended births where the foals did not get out of the sac. I do believe both of these were due to Rhino as explained on page 225 of Blessed Are the Broodmares. Mares exposed to Rhino don't always abort but but can maintain the pregnancy until 10-11 months gestation "... and usually abort with no warning. ... The significant sign is when the placenta is found to be delivered intact with the dead or very weak foal inside the sac."

(emphasis mine).

I ask you, how many foals have you had where the placenta was delivered WITH the foal that was still in the sac? We have had 2, both times when we did not give the Pneumabort shots, and the same mare. I also think this week's foal will prove to be very premature. I just heard from the person who delivered the body to the lab and they had NEVER seen such a small foal before, and they get hundreds. The body, in a plastic bag and surrounded by ice, fit in a regular size cooler. I really don't think it would have helped if I had been there. (And how many of you are watching mares like a hawk before they hit 300 days gestation? She WAS on Mare Stare and she was also "outside" as the stall door was wide open to the pasture.)

I think our main issue is that we try to show and breed and I see now how that is not a good situation. Long term solution is probably to find homes for our mares where they will not be exposed to Rhino. Short term, we want to try one more time....

We will concentrate on the Rhino as I think that is the main issue. I did not know you can test for it - that will be step 1. Rhino/flu shots for show horses every 2 months during show season, and Pneumabort shots at 3, 5, 7, and 9 months. I will also think about taking pregnant mares off the daily wormer, but I also ask how many colic surgeries you have had? We have had 3, and welcome the $5,000 reimbursement. We always spread out our shots and don't give strangles to pregnant mares.

The mineral block sounds good.

Thanks again.

Mary

 

[wcr]

The best of us can have foaling problems but you have had more than your share. My heart goes out to you hearing you have lost another foal. Last year I lost 3 out of 4 foals for various reasons and I am diligent with my foaling so understand your frustration.

Just a few thoughts and suggestions.

It sounds like you have a rhino problem so I would start there. If you haven't yet, have the vet come out and assess your herd and management for rhino and look around for toxins on the property. Maybe there is something you have missed. It has always been my practice that show horses were vaccinated for everything. They are the ones that will bring something home if there is any chance of it. We can debate vaccination procedures til the cows come home but I know what has worked for me. I had a horse in training and running the futurity circuit with a big time world champion trainer and my horse was the only horse in the barn that didn't get sick and he was asking me my vaccination protocol. I know there are many opinions on strep/strangles but I always gave it. I have seen it go through several barns and heard of deaths and the cost of vet care and loss of time while the horse recovered wasn't worth not giving it.

Again the rhino vacs are up for debate. I used to give it religiously to my paints but I have seen minis abort after getting it so I don't give it anymore. As in this post, many people give it without problems.

I would be a little concerned with the daily wormer. I would think a rotation schedule of worming would suffice for insurance. That is what is recommended by vets and manufacturers except the ones making daily wormers.

What I found with my paints when I was trying to breed on the foal heat was that if I cultured it usually came back dirty because of natural flora and I ended up flushing the mare anyway so stopped culturing and just routinely started flushing after foaling. I still do that even though I am not pushing the breeding like you do in big horses.

Hope this helps and again so sorry you have had such a rough time of it.

 

[Annabellarose]

I will start by saying that I DO NOT know everything! LOL I am constantly HUMBLED by all of the knowledgeable horse people who stand before me on this forum and in real life. I have been "breeding" horses since 1995; I am going to date myself, since I was 15 years old (and I still DO NOT consider myself or refer to myself as "a breeder"). I have never lost a foal. I hope that I never do lose a foal and I do not feel confident of any one particular reason why I have never lost a foal. I have educated myself in as many way as I have been able to (on my budget and with the time that I have had available to spare) and I have done as much as I could to try not to lose foals (again, on my budget and with the time that I have had available to spare).As mentioned on another thread and on FB, we lost another foal yesterday, at 299 days gestation. In 5 years of breeding, 2 (or maybe 3) mares a year, we have had 1 false pregnancy, 1 late term abortion (breech, requiring hospitalization), 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac (including yesterday's), 2 dystocias, 1 of which survived (Max) and died this year, 1 early fetal loss, and of course a mare or two that didn't settle, and ONE uneventful delivery resulting in a still living mini. I know a lot of comments have been made about our "bad luck" but I think it is clear by now that we must be doing something wrong. And I doubt many people would blame us if we gave up breeding completely, but we aren't quite ready to do that. So I am asking for your help to identify how we might improve our "luck".

What we do now: Hand breed to accurately predict due dates[i ONLY hand breed also. There is NO UNAUTHORIZED breeding on my farm, EVER! No shared fencelines, no break outs, nothing! This certainly does not mean that you know when a mare is going to foal, but at least you have a "window" to prepare for.], move mares to foaling stall at 300 days[i usually put my Miniature Horse mares under camera around day 280 from the first breeding date as I have read on the forum that some Miniature Horse people have had mares foal as early as day 310.], check milk (with or without test strips)[i know that A LOT of people DO check the milk and that this thread is probably going to get flooded with everyone saying how they do it and that it has never caused a problem (if you have ever lost a foal, how do you know it wasn't from checking the milk?), but I do not check the milk. I have read and have been told by actual veterinarians (LOL) on more than one occasion that "milking" a mare (even in an attempt to get a few drops for a test strip) can cause premature contractions/delivery. The milk really only gives you help predicting the time of foaling and you really should be watching that mare like a hawk IRREGARDLESS of what the milk says, so, I say, why risk the potential danger?], have Equipage with pager, camera on Mare Stare[i think Mare Stare is absolutely one of the most brilliant concepts ever invented, but, I do think that some people (and I am not saying you as I do not know you) put way too much faith in it. Do not trust other people to watch your mare!], watch the mare's diet (no fescue), add a vitamin supplement with selenium[i pick the best feed (and not necessarily a "mare and foal feed", I usually do not start the mare on a "mare and foal feed" until just after the mare delivers) that I can buy in my area and I do not give additional supplements if the feed fills all or most of the dietary requirements recommended (then I would only supplement just the bare minimum of the only thing that it appeared to be lacking in.], use Regumate if we think that will help[i NEVER, EVER use Regumate and I do not believe in using Regumate. If the mare cannot stay in foal without Regumate, should she really be bred/asked to carry and mother a foal anyway[/COLOR]?], give prefoaling shots at around 300 days[i do not give any shots or wormer that late in the pregnancy, ever. Before breeding a mare I try to consider my worming schedule and I try not to worm the mare after two months prior to the estimated (from breeding dates) due date and not until the foal is a couple of weeks old.], and have given Pneumabort, (but not this year)! I also have several books on foaling, read cover to cover, college degrees in Animal Science and Animal Diseases and spent lots of time at the UConn sheep barn delivering lambs. Our vet lives nearby and we work very closely with him on all the mini care. Our SOP is to call him when our Equipage goes off and he (and his wife) can get here in time to help. I would guess this is WAY more than many of you do, yet you are enjoying your new foals right now, or anxiously awaiting them, while we are waiting for the results of a necropsy.

 

My suspicions are that Rhino is an issue, as we had sick horses last fall (the whole herd except the mare that just lost her foal). We did not give Rhino shots this year, because (I admit) I felt the foal was already a goner when everyone was sick.

Q1. Should we give Rhino shots more often, especially during show season (we do show and can't really separate the show and non-show horses)?

[i NEVER mix my breeding animals with my show animals, EVER! If I want to show a mare, she does not get bred that year, period. This year I did something that I try to never do when I have a pregnant mare on the farm, I acquired a new horse about two months before my foal arrived and he was kept FAR, FAR away from my pregnant mare. He was not touched until all of the other work with all of the other animals was done for the session or for the day (change clothes, washed exposed skin, and washed rubber boots). He was only fed and checked, he was not worked or brought outside of his areas on the farm until JUST recently (my 2011 foal was one month old on Sunday) and he still has not been allowed near the foal.]

Q2. Guess we should always give the Pneumabort shots??? That seems to be a "Yes".

[i have never given Pneumabort to a mare during pregnancy. My horses do get vaccinated with something my veterinarian refers to as a "4-way" and rabies, usually late summer/early fall. Horses that I intend to show (or think I might show) usually get the "4-way" again in the spring with their first Coggins and health certificates of the show season. If I do take a horse out to a show, I do my BEST never to allow my horses to touch or even get near other people's horses and those horses do not get to go back in with or near a pregnant mare until well after she has foaled.]

Q3. Should we use Regumate on all the mares?

Q4. Should we have every dead foal necropsied? Just found out yesterday how inexpensive and easy this is, and wish I had known when Max died. The lab at UConn charges LESS for a necropsy than we paid for burial (or than they charge for disposal). I think the answer here is YES.

[if it's cheap and easy (I certainly do not mean emotionally), I say yes. You or your veterinarian still may not be able to deduce what is happening in your herd, but it certainly cannot hurt to have as much information as possible.]

Q5. Should we change stallions/mares? We did re-home one mare that we couldn't get to settle after years of trying, but I would really hate to do this without specific reasons. The 2 foals that didn't get out of the sac were sired by different stallions. Our stallion is about 30" and the mares are either about the same size or taller. We do not plan to breed Sox again, even though her foaling history before we got her is outstanding (and why we bought her). We will be training her to drive.

[if you or your veterinarian are certain that the stallion is not producing too big a foal for your mares to be able to successfully deliver, I do not think that your choice of stallions is to blame especially if he is producing other live foals for other customers. If you have only bred to one stallion and he has produced no other live foals for other customers, what could it hurt to try another stallion? But, getting the mares in foal does not seem to be your problem, keeping them in foal and/or them delivering live foals are your primary issues, correct?]

Q6. Is there something inherently "wrong" with our breeding stock?

[There may be no way to be certain of this as there could be things wrong with them that you or your veterinarian just cannot see or test for (because there is no test, etc.) and a veterinarian is really going to be your ONLY go-to for that answer. Test for what you can, follow your veterinarian's advice, educate yourself the best that you can...that is really all that you can do.]

Q7. One thing I have considered is to buy a "three-in-one package" but our finances are not great at the moment. If hubby gets a job, we might think more about this one.

[A "3-in-1" will give you a cute foal (that you did not breed yourself and you seem to want to breed your own foal) and a mare that's pregnant that could still lose a foal. I hate to be a downer, but that mare will still present you with the same challenges along with additional challenges (i.e.: you might not know the exact breeding dates, her habits leading up to foaling, etc., etc., etc.).]

What else can we do????? Open to suggestions..

 

Thank you!!!

 

 

Forgot to mention all our horses are on daily wormer and are also paste wormed twice a year as part of a colic insurance program.

You've still struggled with colic though, haven't you? What type(s) of colics have your horses experienced (gas, impaction, etc.)? I use only paste wormers and I have never lost a foal nor have I ever lost a horse (of any age) to colic. I am certainly not implying anything, I am just stating my experience. EDITED TO ADD AFTER YOUR MOST RECENT POST (which you posted while I was composing): I have never had a horse that needed colic surgery (and I have several horses that are well into their twenties) or that has died or been euthanized due to colic.

Edited to respond to Parmela: The first time the foal didn't get out of the sack the mare was on Mare Stare and I literally turned my back for 5 minutes to catch Target for the farrier. One minute she is eating then 15 minutes later when I check her again, there is a dead foal in the stall and 6 messages on my machine.

I found out this year that you just CANNOT turn your back, your head, close your eyelids, take a pee (LOL), etc. if you want a live foal. No guilt intended or implied!!!!! My mare was not acting out of the ordinary, she laid down (which was certainly not out of the ordinary as she seemed to spend 90% of this pregnancy flat on the ground asleep), she had ONE obvious contraction (and I am not new to this), she got up, a fist-sized white bubble (the placenta) appeared under her tail and I turned to RACE to the barn (the television that the camera is hooked up to is literally less than 200 feet away from her stall), in the time that it took me to RUN less than 200 feet (20-30 seconds) the foal was already COMPLETELY out of her. The foal had not yet broken the sack (it was not a thick sack) and I do not know if he would have been able to as I pounced and ripped it myself immediately! She did not stand up for well over 10 minutes. Would the foal have been able to get out of the sack on his own? Who knows...