So as not to hijack Sonya's "dying parent" thread...

[Mona]

I recently encountered something rather different that really bothers me, but is beyond my control, so have to suck it up, accept it, grin and bear it or anything else you want to say.

Back near the end of September, I got a call from my Dad telling me about this DNR form he filled out. Just a little background here...

My Dad is 77 years old, and is in relatively good health overall. He did have a serious heart attack 4 years ago, but has not had further complications since. He is on some sort of typical (for his age) meds such as high blood pressure, cholesterol, gout, dieuretics and probably something for his heart too. He has not had any other major health issues at all, ever, other than the heart attack.

Anyway, we were talking on the phone (he lives a couple provinces over) late in September, and I was "pumped" because my husband and daughter "placed" in the top 10 of a walleye tounament that they were in. We talked for awhile and were saying our goodbyes when all of a sudden he dropped the bombshell with his, "Oh, and by the way...." and went on to tell me about this DNR he has. That was fine, but then as he talked a little more, he said it meant that he would not have any means of life support at all, no matter what the circumstances. I told him I understand having it for some things, but if there is nothing wrong with you and you had a heart attack again, why wouldn't you want help? I asked him if the last four "extra" years he got were not worth it? Like WE weren't worth it? I told him he could live even longer, and as long as he was healthy, why not? He said something to the effect of, "I am 77 years old, I don;t want to live another 20 years. My body aches to walk now, why in the heck would I want to live for another 20 years?"

We ended up in somewhat of a spat. He had obiously had a "few" drinks of rum before my talking to him, and I was in tears. I ended up telling him that it was NOT a good time to be discussing it, as it was just a bad time for me, and that he was half in the bag, and we left it at that. I told him that I totally did not agree with it but "whatever"...it was his choice.

We had discussed things in the past about not keeping him alive on machines etc., but that was if there was little hope of recovery. I was totally OK with that, as I would not want to see him being kept alive by a machine with little to no hope, but this was totall different!

Several days later, we spoke again and we were both calm and able to discuss it a little more rationally. I asked him exactly what it is, and sure enough, it is basically in my opinion, him signing his own death sentence. It is not just called a DNR, but is some sort of "End of Life" thing too, and states that the person wishes that at the end of their life, either through natural aging or through terminal illness, the person wishes that certain or no (is specified by the person) help is to be given. In the case of my Dad, it is no IV, no CPR, no resucitation of any sort, for no matter what the reason that he happens to be in that position. So even if he has a stroke or heart attack or whatever else, that may leave him unable to speak, he does not want any medical intervention at all, that may postpone or delay his natural death, and wishes only to be kept comfortable. So in effect, if he chokes on something, they are not to even attempt to revive him. It's rediculous!

Anyway, before we hung up, he told me he was happy that I understood and was OK with his decision. I made it clear to him by telling him that no, I was not comfortable or OK with it, nor do I understand. I told him I think it is not right, that those tpes of things are for terminally ill people, and not otherwise healthy people, but that if those are his wishes, then I guess I have no say in the matter.

Anyway, do any of you have this, or know if your parents or loved ones have such a thing?

 

[Bassett]

My husband has a DNR in place. BUT it is only in a very severe case, where he would have to kept alive by machines for a very long time just to maintain life. That is not a life. He is 84, lives in a nursing home. Has had strokes and one caroitid (sp?) artery is 100 % blocked and the other back up to 50%. He said he WILL NOT go through the surgery again. He did at 62 years old and it has added 22 years to his life. So it is his decision and we all abide by it. I don't want to lose him, he's the love of my life and we've had 50 + wonderful years. But hopefully we'll have a few more years before a decision has to be made. I feel for you. Your Dad is quite young yet. Must be hard for you. (((((((HUGS))))))))

 

[Mona]

Yes Bonnie, something like you have described here with your husband, is what I feel they are for as well, but it seems like what my Dad wants is basically some sort of assisted suicide, because the doctors are not allowed to do anything to help him. To me, I feel like he is being selfish, wanting his life to end for no good reason, BUT, I guess maybe it is ME being the selfish one, wanting him to stay as long as possible. I just find the reasoning behind such a thing difficult to understand.

 

[horsefeather]

Yes, I did go thru something similar. My father died 5 yrs. before my mother. They had been married 62 years. She, of course, was devastated. She had told me (I am an only child) that she did not want to be put on any life machine. I, as you, said that was fine, I sure didn't blame her. (I have no fear of death, but I am so scared something will happen to me and I will have to depend on someone else to take care of me.) Anyway, there was a time when she was in the hospital. I had gone to visit her as I did every day after work, and she was in the hall, not in her room and there were several nurses and drs. around her. They asked me to wait outside for a few minutes, that everything was ok, but they wanted to get her back in her room. Afterwards I found out she had choked on her food and they had to put a tube down her throut and resucitate her. When she was better she was SO mad at me for letting them do that to her. I tried to explain I knew nothing about it until it was all over. She told me she had said she did NOT want to be resucitated for any reason. I talked to the dr. and that's when I found out about the DNR. Neither mom or me knew that you had to actually add it to the paperwork saying specifically you wanted no resucitation. We added it to the paperwork and mom was much happier. As it turned out, she passed some months later with a major stroke, at home.

Anywas, I understood her request. She was 85, lived next to us in a mobile home, her body was worn out and she did hurt all the time. That's not living. She was ready to go and be with my dad. (Yes, I feel there is an afterlife). I think it is sometimes selfise of us not to let them decide what they want to do. (I know this isn't the same, but I had a little dog I loved dearly. He was 14 yrs. old and would have siezures every once in a while. He was almost deaf and blind. I know in my heart that I kept him alive too long. He was ready way before I was ready to let him go).

Mona, even tho we don't look 77 as being 'old' these days, depending on how you have lived your life (hard work, etc.) sometimes our bodies are just plain tired. However, I hope your dad lives for years more. But please, and I wish I could say this face to face as it sometimes just doesn't come out right in writing, but even tho it is harder on you, don't make it any harder on him. Please know that I am judging you in any way as I believe everyone must make their own decisions.

Pam

 

[Equuisize]

DNR's are so very difficult for the family and friends that are left behind to wonder if 'something' would have made a difference

or 'what if' a miracle took place to keep the person with you. You do hear of those things.

We've dealt with it several times now and while I hate it, to it's very core, I do have to say I think I understand it, a bit, and why people

choose such. Particularly for people that have had a long term illness and their life quailty is no where near what they had enjoyed.

But also, for those that know should their health decline to a point where they could no longer be who they see themselves as,

that it is the best choice for them.

Many times illness takes away from us many decisions and choices.....medical professioanls poke, prod, stick you with needles,

do things to your body you don't want anyone doing and before the choice is taken away from you - you at least are choosing to

leave life with what you feel is your dignity, in place. It is the final decision you can make on your own behalf while you are still able to

make it. It takes, I believe a lot of soul searching and honesty to know yourself well enough to know it's what's right for you.

It's hard not to personalize it and think it's because you don't matter enough for them to stick around, despite having to live in a

body that has betrayed them.

It may be the ultimate kindness to your loved ones, understanding that they might not be able nor want to make that kind of a decision

should it become necessary.

That is the pragmatic response to what you asked not my idealistic one, in which we all live happy after ever, as my son used to say.

 

[Sonya]

both of my parents also have DNR...It's a tough thing for us to think of them no longer wanting to be here...it is certainly not a reflection of how they feel for us. A friend told me the other day that above all...parents only want for their kids to be happy (I don't have kids so maybe I don't understand that)...but I suppose it's true. I sometimes get upset with my Mom, as she doesn't seem to "try" to live...even though she is much more capable than she appears...but maybe I don't "know" as much as I think I do. I do know my parents both often put on an act of how they are doing, so I do not worry about them....funny we all want the same for each other....for each to be happy and to not worry. ((hugs))

 

[Sonya]

I guess the point I was trying to convey is when parents make these type of choices I think their main concern is what is best for their family (and most important their children who keep on living)...even if we don't agree with them.

Edited to add: Often, the words...I don't want to live like that (which they don't).....also mean, I don't want to be a burden, I don't want you to remember me that way...sometimes they say it, and sometimes they don't. And even though your Dad is healthy now, he may be looking into the future and trying to spare you something down the road.

 

[Mona]

Thanks everyone. I totally understand and agree with the DNRs for the "obvious" reasons, and am fine with it. It just seems a shame (to me) to see someone healthy no longer want to live, I guess.

And especially when it is my Dad.

I think maybe a part of my feeling this way is because he and my Mom split up when I was 14. He moved away and we didn't see a lot of each other over the years...very little in fact, as he had gotten remarried and she didn't want his family to be involved in his life. A long story, but in a nutshell, she passed away about 6 or 7 years ago, and I have seen and spent more time with him these past years than I have in the previous 25 or so years previous to that, and that is in NO WAY an exageration. When yioung, I was always "Daddy's little girl", so that was all hard to swallow that we no longer seemed to have the relationship we had once shared, and I think maybe a good part of the reason that I am not wanting to see him leave so soon if not really necessary. I feel like I am finally able to make up for lost time, and have been cherishing my visits with him.

I am his POA and I will do as he wishes, and I harbor no ill feelings towards him for his decision. We are not on bad terms over it, but I am the type of person that says how I really feel, and so I did tell him I was not comfortable with it, didn;t understand it, but that he can rest assured knowing that I appreciate that it is ultimately his decision/choice and I accept that. I think the biggest thing is, he is lonely and that is why he wants to "go" as soon as possible, and I guess I can appreciate that, and would not want him to feel lonely for the rest of his life either. He has family (sister etc.) living in the town he does, but is just not the same as having someone at your side all the time. So yes, I do understand.

Was just more of a vent I guess, as dealing with the loss of my Mom in November 2010, the 11 months to the day after that, my Stepdad, and now thinking about going through it all again with my Dad...feeling pretty lonely(sad) here too knowing they will all be "gone". Oh well, life goes on...thanks for lending your ears/eyes and shoulders.

 

[Sonya]

Of course you want him around...you were cheated of alot of time. (((hugs)))....I know what you mean about feeling 'sad'....I am killing myself with anticipated grief right now. I am very scared to go see my Dad, I am afraid to say goodbye.

 

[susanne]

DNR's can, of course, be tailored to suit the situation. They outline specific situations in which life-savings efforts should be made, how long life support should be given, etc.

Many, including myself, have a horror of being kept alive beyond their body and mind's capacity.

Mona, you have probably discussed this with your father, but what if you were to say that you fully support his choice not to be kept alive artificially, but at the same time you're hoping to have more time with him and hope he would consider allowing basic lifesaving efforts -- only, of course, if it means quality, meaningful time. He could always change it again later if he truly wishes.

It may not make a difference with him, but then again, it just might.

.

 

[SampleMM]

Mona, not to scare you but my neighbor's grandma had this type of DNR and she had a surgery. While she was recuperating from the surgery a nurse accidentally gave her food which she was in no way shape or form suppose to get. She choked on the food and because of this DNR the hospital staff did nothing to help her and she died. It was so upsetting for my neighbor to watch. What a tragedy.

 

[Mona]

Thanks Susanne. I tried that when we spoke. Maybe not exactly those words, but in a round about way, we definitely did discuss it and the "what-ifs" etc. I think his biggest fear (as he basicaly said as much) is surviving a stroke or somethig and not being able to talk or move as he should etc. Like if he can't be perfect, it would be no good to live. And then it would be too late to do anything as they would have did what they could for him to help him live, and then he would have to live that way.

And yes Debbie, that is the type of thing that does really scare me, as something like that should not happen!