stallions vs geldings

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Nathan I am curious from your post on this thread and others you refer to your clients are you a vet?

Believe me it isnt a rare horse person who can handle the behavior of a stallion nor is it a rare stallion who has manners and can easily be handled. Be it a mini or a 18+ hand horse. In fact this is more common then not.

This alone IMO isnt reason to keep a horse a stallion but obviously we are on different sides of the fence.

 

[Sunraye Miniatures]

Here, we sell all of our colts. We sell them as colts, but we give a gelding discount, and its a pretty big discount since I like to see them be gelded, and go on to good youth show homes. Or if I really feel like a colt needs to be gelded then I geld it as soon as I can. If they haven't been sold, and they have dropped to where they can be gelded at anytime, then they are gelded and sold as geldings.

For one thing, they might be fine as babies as colts, but when they are grown up they change. I had one who was really sweet as a baby, but once he realizes what he was, he had to be by himself, he was very nervous the whole time, just unhappy. Once I was able to get him gelded he is a much better boy, and very happy too. He might have been gorgeous, had good bloodlines, but not worth keeping him a stallion for his happiness.

I wish you would post a pic of your colt.

Just note that if you think you can make millions on foals from a stud, you might beable to do it if you breed 100 mares every year for like 10 years and sell every foal. Not trying to sound snotty, but I'm just trying to say its VERY hard to do. Only the BEST, like Buckeroo for example, can make money like that

:

 

[hobbyhorse23]

If you really loved this little horse you would love him for himself, not just for what he could produce someday. I'm with MountainWaif:

...enjoy the little horse that he is, not worrying about what he could produce. He is the end product...he is perfection in his own little world!

WHY so many miniature horse owners (and other breeds/species too) seem to assume that each animal is valuable only for the next generation it can produce, I don't understand. When will you learn to love the one you're with??

: Argh, sorry, pet peeve.

And if you think he cares if he has children you're nuts! He's a baby himself, he has no longing for children in the future. Yes, some stallions can be loving fathers to their foals. But it is unlikely that your stallion would be allowed to run loose with his mares and he will likely never even know the foals have anything to do with him. How is this making his life more fulfilling than loving him for himself as a wonderful gelding?

Look, I know you're young and I understand where you're coming from, I really do. I hated gelding my horse and what's worse, he still thinks of himself as a stallion and was madder than heck about being gelded! I've never seen anything like it. But every other gelding I've ever owned has been perfectly happy that way and in fact much preferred babysitting foals to siring them and then being kept apart from them. Your little fellow will get studdy and nasty and be far more interested in mares than in you. Do you really want that? We don't keep them in the kind of natural environment a stallion could be happy in, unfortunately.

Yes, you can always take them off but you can't glue them back on. So keep him a stallion for now if you must but always be watching to see what he's growing into. And keep him away from his little girlfriend the minute he starts showing interest!

I agree with the others- post pictures.

Leia

 

[Littleum]

just think of them as humans and you will see that its better to give them a chance. please think about tis as something that is important to me as we own them and love them and yes i do want whats best bu what about what they want?? dont you think they want to express something to us=s but yet they cant?

If you want to think of them as humans, think of them as your children. While we want to give our kids everything they want and need, you have to very carefully consider what's BEST for them, not what they WANT. I'll bet you don't want to go to school, but your parents make you, because getting that education is very important to your future!

There are really very, very real risks with producing more horses. Not just at foaling, but also what happens to those foals you sell... it's amazing how they can fall on hard times and end up at a meat auction. :no: You need to look far down the road and think about the future you'll be offering "the grandkids" So even if you believe your horses want to have babies... should they?

If your colt is the little silver guy you posted pictures of a month or two ago, I think your parents are making the right descion to geld him.

: I think if you go look very honestly at pictures of National-winning AMHA and AMHR stallions, you'll see why. Being honest with yourself and your horses is the absolute first thing you have to be able to do as a breeder- it's one of the hardest things to learn and it can hurt like heck, but if you can master cold-eyed honesty, your breeding program will do nothing but benefit!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Nathan I am curious from your post on this thread and others you refer to your clients are you a vet?

Believe me it isnt a rare horse person who can handle the behavior of a stallion nor is it a rare stallion who has manners and can easily be handled. Be it a mini or a 18+ hand horse. In fact this is more common then not.

This alone IMO isnt reason to keep a horse a stallion but obviously we are on different sides of the fence.

I work for a veterinary facility, but no, I'm not a vet. I'm just a reproductive physiologist-to-be. As far as rare owner/rare stallion, I feel that they are a little more rare than some people think.

We just tallied the records as to how many horses we saw this past breeding season (which still isn't technically over, yet) and we are already over 200 stallions, and the stallion season is just begining (fall is a prime time to send your stallion to have semen frozen). Of those, how many were honestly well mannered? Maybe half... and those are generally full time show horses who have been instilled with good manners since birth.

My reason to keep stallions stallions is like I said. They are his testicles. Unless he shows me he doesn't deserve them, who am I to rip them off of his body? I'm not god, is it really my choice? Sure, it makes dealing with him easier, easier to train, etc, but is that ethical? I rather work through any trouble with training, let him form a bond with his herdmates, etc. I find that relationship far more rewarding and well worth it that just castrating him. I don't think its fair to him. I'm also blessed with two very well mannered boys, who had manners taught to them as youngsters. One IS breeding quality, the other one isn't just yet, which is why he's not advertised, not promoted, and not intended to breed.

 

[_minihorses4ever_]

I remember the colt you are talking about. I think most people on here would agree with me that he is not stallion quality.

I have an Orion grandson too, and sure, he could have been left a stallion. But he wasn't, because he is no where near being conformationally correct. He has an AMAZING personality, and he will continue to be my companion for years. Oh, and I have no problem that he will never sire any babies.

I understand you love this colt, but you need to REALLY look at him, or better yet, have someone experienced look at him. A lot of us suffer from barn blindess since we love our little horses so much. I think you will find out he would be much better as a gelding. Why would you want to breed a stud that is not quality? All it is doing is putting out more unwanted horses in the world. CMHR is taking in more and more horses each year (If I remember correctly). Doesn't that say something right there? :new_shocked:

Edited to add: If y'all go the original poster's profile and look at her topics, you will find one with the colt's pictures. Maybe that will help some of y'all out.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

A lot of us suffer from barn blindess since we love our little horses so much.

LOL how true

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

[

I work for a veterinary facility, but no, I'm not a vet. I'm just a reproductive physiologist-to-be. As far as rare owner/rare stallion, I feel that they are a little more rare than some people think.

Wow must be an interesting vet clinic. I have to say I have honestly never heard of a vet clinic that has that philosphy- that stallions should remain stallions since that is how god intended them In fact every vet I have ever been around or worked with or talked to is very much in favor of gelding. Very interesting.

I have found that over 90 percent of the stallions I have worked with and been around (from minis to Warmbloods) most are very well mannered and easy going. As that is of course a trait that should be considered when breeding any stallion- disposition. From Halter horses to roping horses I have been in a ring full of stallions and not one of them made a wrong move or a wrong glance at any time all very well mannered. Of course there is the opposite to that as well.

 

[Jill]

My point of view is if the horse's bahavior deserves them, let him keep them. Their his, not ours to take off just because. I won't geld a horse, even if he'll never be bred, unless its in HIS best interest, not mine.

If he's not going to be used for breeding, then why force him to be frustrated? I've gelded some NICE stallions exactly because it allows them to lead happier more socialized lives. It sure is not a selfish choice on the part of an owner to geld a stallion. In my opinion, human VANITY is the reason so many mini stallions are not gelded.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I didn't say that was the clinics point of view, I said that was MY point of view. Like I mentioned, I help the vet do whatever the client wants, I have no right to impress upon them my point of view whatsoever. And for most people, geldings are far better! How many little kids do you want riding their first pony around to be on a stallion? But in my opinion, in my barn, that's how I think and how I opperate. Nobody said anyone had to agree with that

Its just my personal point of view.

Fustrated? My boys aren't fustrated. They get a lot more socialization that most horses do in this land-crunched world. They have horses to talk to, space to run in, friends to touch, race, and enjoy the company of. And Charlie gets to play with his phantom from time to time. How are they fustrated? They don't have to think with thier equipment all the time ya know.

 

[SweetOpal]

WOW, im shocked Nathan that you feel that a vet would not want to geld. I have to say I have several gelded every year and my vet personally enjoys doing geldings and thinks that all stallions should be gelded. I have never seen him refer to himself as God either. Barn Blindness is a huge problem especially in this breed.

If your horse is not sexually active and doesn't think about breeding why would you need a phatom????

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You know Nathan I have lived a lot longer than you and I have NEVER found a woman with your philosophy.

Funny that.

I am glad to say I have only found a handful of men with it either.

It is a nonsense to say horses are better off as stallions- it is bad enough as it is without every idiot having an entire!!

As to your horses being better off...well, just how do you know??

They would be as well off as geldings and less frustrated, able to soicialise more.

You sound like an excellent owner, it is a shame you cannot take that last step that so many men find so hard to do, and stop anthropomorphising, horses are animals, they are not little human beings who understand what is happening to them and worry .

They do not see inot the future or worry as we do about what might happen.

What would happen to your boys if, God forbid, you dropped dead tomorrow??

How sure are you that they would be better off then??

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Wow, I love how respectful people are of other's opinions. I really appreciate your votes of confidence. I'm personally very comfortable with my opinion on this matter, and I figured it was worth sharing, but I guess not

My boys both have responcible people who have agreed to care for them for me in the event of my death, leaving them as stallions and taking as good care of them as I do now.

I did not say that a vet would not want to geld, I'm sorry for giving that impression. I do not think vets are god, I said that I do not think I am. Vets do what their clients ask, as long as its reasonable, they don't have to make that kind of decision. I do, as an owner.

Charlie needs a phantom; he is commercially active. My mini is not, and will not be.

You are right, the are not people. They do not think ahead, more than what's for dinner and oh god, he's got the saddle. My boys socialize more than the average horse does and are very fortunate to have that privlage.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

:no:

 

[txminipinto]

Let's get back to the topic on hand:

Shadow my dear, if you think you're boy is so good to retain his testicles and be the future herdsire for your "bloodline" then prove it in the ring. There are thousands and I almost want to bet millions of mini foals born every year. And the competition in the show arena is TOUGH. If you're going to put the money in breeding, then you need to back it up by putting the money in promoting. And I think you may get a pair of new barn glasses when you walk your boy in the ring for the first time. I'm not trying to bash your boy. Lord nows, I have a mare that I think the world of but didn't do as well as I had hoped on the ASPC circuit (she kicked major butt on the Pinto circuit though). I'm just trying to open your eyes to the world of horse business.

Anybody can breed a stallion to a mare and get a foal. But it takes someone with integrity to take that stallion and mare, prove them in the show arena, and then breed them hoping for something that MIGHT be better. You want to start your own bloodline and I can understand that. Mine (and I'm 10 years your senior) is starting to get off the ground after YEARS of work and research. But, if you're going to do it, do it right with experience and knowledge as a foundation. Not just one stallion with a neat color and famous bloodline. This is an expensive business to get into with a very small profit margin. Put your money into the horse that will give you the greatest return.

 

[nootka]

Well said, Carin...there are a lot of stallions out there that don't have show records per se, but their get do, also it takes a good eye to know which ones will be the best producers.

It takes 11 months to get a foal, only one chance per year per mare (if you're lucky that is), why "waste" that chance with a "so so" or "just ok" stallion? There are wonderful Orion grandsons and even SONS still producing, ones that are sires to World Champs, proven ones.... It may well be worth it to pay a stud fee and have the BEST baby rather than to just use the one you have because you do.

As has been pointed out, I would think NONE of the Miniature Horse breeders have ever made a million let alone multiple millions with raising and selling Miniature Horses. Not even Buckeroo, I would bet, has earned millions.

Liz M.

 

[Littleum]

Wow, I love how respectful people are of other's opinions. I really appreciate your votes of confidence.

not to hijack the thread but...

I personally don't agree with your position BUT I do believe your position is well considered and appropriate for you. I'm not going to shake my head at it.

I think the pull back and finger-wagging you're getting is that your position could so easily be twisted & used as justification for keeping trash breeding stock. We really need to discourage ignorant, barn-blind people with medicore or worse horses from breeding, and your position on it is not helpful in encouraging them to pick up the knife. These people aren't to spend much brainpower on grasping the finer point of your argument: they just want something to fling at us when we criticize them for breeding POS stallions to POS mares and producing POS foals.

Hence why I think some people feel obligated to attack your position- just because it's "dangerous" in the wrong hands.

 

[shadowsmystictopaz]

I dont have many pics of him yet as i would like to take pics when he has gotten maybe nicer pics of him. I think of my colt as a son because i cant have any kids because of my disability. As you guys all know orion was a very important horse and i wanted to keep his bloodline going. its hard for me to hear anything about gelding him because i love him so and want a few batches of babys from him. He loves one of my fillys very much. when he is loose he always goes to say hi to her and they hang out together. I belive that if i wannt to get started i need a stallion of my own because i cant stand not knowing a single thing about my fillys father and it kills me because of that. at leased i would know silvers winning and i would know how many babies he has had. and id be happy thats what counts doesnt it. I have been thinking about my fillys soon to be brother or sister and i am sad that i dont know much about the father. all i know is that he has had 6 babies and thats it. winnings i dont know stt all and to me thats important. there is a plus in having a stallion of our own.

1. you know him well enough

2. you know evevery babie that has been biorn from him

3. you know there winnings.

when breeding to a outide stallion you might not know these things

1. how many babies has he had

2. what is his action conformation like and personality

3. does he seem to be a good stallion and worth breeding to

you see this is the question i have about my fillys dad and i cant anser them because i know nothing about him.

this is why I wanted a stallion of my own so i woudnt have to ask theses questions anymore when it comes to breeding to other mares. the owners will see my stallion in action and we will always keep him clean and give him a bath before the mares owner comes. we will tell them eveveryhing they need to know about our stallion and not leave important things out. this is one thing that i promise to keep. they will know stuff they need to know and not have to worry or wonder about things because i will have told them what they need to know.

 

[Littleum]

here are wonderful Orion grandsons and even SONS still producing, ones that are sires to World Champs, proven ones.... It may well be worth it to pay a stud fee and have the BEST baby rather than to just use the one you have because you do.

Liz M.

I believe Brewer's Classic Supreme (2x National Champion, National Champion sire) is at stud at Aarion for like $1,000. BARGIN priced IMO.

No point spending $2,000/month trying to promote a stallion out on the circut with a top trainer, when you can take that money and just buy the premade success and proven production of stallions like Supreme or After Dark. Let some other sucker for punishment cultivate the stallion prospects. I'll just breed to them for a fraction of the cost!

:

:

 

[txminipinto]

My dear, you are missing the point. Good luck and be sure to come back and brag about all of your winnings and money you're making off of breedings and foals. :no: