Stupid Old AMHR Breeder

[Margo_C-T]

I was around and into miniatures before AMHR instituted the B(now 'over")division, and will say that I then, and still now, felt that the primary reason for that was to increase revenue(to support the Shetlands). That said, I have come to appreciate that size range, and to believe it is the 'best' one if you are seriously into 'real world' driving(as opposed to breed show ring). And, several years ago, BEFORE any special-price sales, I registered all of my remaining AMHA horses (except the now-30 YO mare, who was never going to be shown, be bred, or leave my ownership ever again), because I realized that doing so made them MORE, not less, valuable and saleable! I currently own an unregistered 37" gelding to drive; I recently paid a goodly sum to register him in PtHA, and would have been happy to hardship him into AMHR if I still could. I have NO interest in breed showing, which is why I was willing to buy unregistered(horse had extensive ground driving/prep work under a knowledgable driver; that was a major attraction); however, I'd have been prepared to put him into AMHR if I could have, because I do believe it appreciates their value, NOT depreciates it.My 'over' horse IS a gelding, and while not a halter horse by any means, he can hold his own in the movement department, while not in any way 'threatening' or lessening the value of already-registered AMHR horses.

Renee, I have seen pics of your horses and think you have EXCELLENT quality animals(and I am very critical regarding quality!); IMO, you are being WAY too hard on yourself and your proveably excellent breeding program!

Best wishes, no matter what!

Margo

 

[tagalong]

AMHA horses don't need a stud report.

LaVern - as others have pointed out that ^ is simply not true. Gee, I wonder what I have been filling out all these years....

It seems you are unhappy about a lot of things that are not factual... I am sorry that you are so frustrated.

Everything here is double-registered AMHA/AMHR or AMHR/ASPC. Except for the Shetlands who would not measure in for R...

 

[LaVern]

You misunderstood - you do not have to send a stud report into AMHR when you want to hardship the horse to AMHR. Of course you have to do your AMHA stud reports. Do all the AMHA stuff and flop them over.

All you need is a copy of their AMHA papers.

I had to hardship a stallion in a couple years ago. The breeder is one of the biggest, winningest AMHR trainers and a AMHR judge. He had not even bothered to send a AMHR stud report in on him. His mother was not AMHR and he would not register her even when I offered to pay to register her, so I could get some pedigree on the stallion. He had not sent any AMHR stud reports in. It was like why bother, just hardship him in. I was mad then, now I think he was smart.

 

[Lewella]

This is what I have in my notes from the open Board meeting on Saturday at Convention regarding the hardship sale:

Summary - 517 AMHA horses, 103 Shetlands - increased revenue by $14,000

So far in 2012 the hardship sale has resulted in over twice as many hardship registrations as there were in 2011.

If you get the ASPC/AMHR e-newsletter you should start seeing e-blasts in mid summer to remind everyone that the hardship sale will end December 31, 2013.

 

[kaykay]

Hey LaVern

Okay do not have a stroke but I agree with you!! This post isn't going to make me any friends for sure.

This continuing sale certainly devalues all AMHR horses. I think most could live with a one year "sale" but two years? And wow if it goes to 50.00?

I went to convention and stood up and talked against letting geldings of unknown breeding hardship into AMHR. Why? Because it would have totally taken away any value for people that breed and sell AMHR registered geldings. Why would anyone pay decent money for an AMHR gelding if they could go to the local auction and pick one up for 20.00 and hardship it in for 100.00. Thankfully it didn't pass.

I am starting to feel the same way about this "sale"

Back when I did hardship some of my ASPC ponies (keep in mind though that ASPC ponies were never supposed to have to hardship into the very registry they created) I had to pay a higher price and I did that willingly because those ponies were well worth it. I also had to pay a judge and a steward to come and measure them (or take them to a show). Back then the theory was keep a higher price to harship so that people don't just hardship in every horse/pony out there. Theory was only the better quality horses would pay the high (ish) fee and hardship in.

Now you can just send your 100.00 and talk a couple people into signing the papers and skip all that hassle of having them actually measured. They don't even have to measure 38" or under anymore. Yes this is tongue in cheek. Well kinda.

When I hardshipped mine they truly were 38" or under. And they really were measured by a judge and a steward. Now its just about anything goes. Its all who you know and who you can get (or pay) to sign the hardship paper.

I never agreed when people used to argue that hardshipping would make the size of the AMHR miniature go up. I thought people were like me and really had 38" and under ponies. Now I see 43 and up ponies hardshipping in as AMHR. Yep the size is definitely going to go up.

And this is such a true statement but many here are skipping over it or do not understand the impact it has had on both ASPC and AMHR.

They made a big mistake by taking off the A and B designations on pony papers.

I am selling out my herd because of hubbys health issues etc. But I have to say I was already thinking about it due to the problems ever since the A's and B's were dropped off the Shetland papers. IMO this was the biggest mistake the registry ever made. This stuff slips through by the BOD and members don't even really know what is going on. Minature members felt it didn't impact them so who cares? Now you are seeing the impact. Initially the horses that hardshipped AMHR were foundation ponies with no hackney outcrosses, they had A papers. With the dropping of the A's and B's its anything goes now and the true foundation pony is being lost. And the classic Shetland pony. It all trickles down and ends with the AMHR miniature.

It makes me sad when I see where its all going. I put my heart and soul in my herd and fought for this association for almost 12 years. I felt much as Lavern does (and I know its worse for you Renee as you have a lot more years in than I did) of maybe its time to stop fighting and throw in the towel. Want to know where all those missing members went? They threw in the towel and gave up.

If you are a member of ASPC/AMHR you better start taking notice of what is going on and try to make a difference.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Well said Kay. Totally agree something has to be done, and it has to be further then talking about it then on this forum.

 

[Lewella]

If a Shetland or Falabella is found to be hardshipped without the Judge and the Steward present at the same time for the measurement and inspection the Board takes disciplinary action against the judge and the steward that sign off on the paperwork and pulls the registration papers on the animal that did not follow correct hardship procedure.

There is absolutely no plan at this point to extend the hardship sale beyond the end of 2013 OR to lower the hardship fee.

 

[Minimor]

... this was the biggest mistake the registry ever made. This stuff slips through by the BOD and members don't even really know what is going on. Minature members felt it didn't impact them so who cares? Now you are seeing the impact. Initially the horses that hardshipped AMHR were foundation ponies with no hackney outcrosses, they had A papers. .

Supposedly. But surely you know as well as I

do that there are A papered ponies that are pretty much full Hackney--just because they don't show the Hackney on the papers doesn't mean it isn't there. In view of that I can't agree that dropping the A and B designation has had any impact. Yes, in a few cases it has made a difference to some ponies that wouldn't have been able to show had they had the B designation....because they wouldn't have been allowed to show Classic and didn't have the movement for Modern...but I don't see that it has any effect on AMHR (I didn't know there was a rule that said B papered ponies couldn't hardship? In fact I specifically remember a thread in here a long time ago about some B papered ponies that were hardshipped into. AMHR.)

 

[Riverdance]

LaVern there are some things you need to know about AMHA. First, hard shipping into AMHA is no longer allowed in 2013.(they are protecting their breeders and trying to make sure that not too much of the Modern Shetland blood(and Hackney pony blood) drastically change the look and temperament of the Miniature horse) Second, AMHA DOES require stallion reports and has so for the 16 years I have been a breeder. Frankly, i am glad that AMHR is extending their hardshipping sale. Keeping up with two registries is very expensive. I bought two horses that are AMHA only and need to be hardshipped into AMHR. One a mare, one a stud. It is hard to come up with all of the money to be members of two registries, pay registration to two registries, bring horses permanent in two registries, etc. I just do not have the money this year to pay the hardship fees. I am an AMHA person, showed AMHR for the first few years, but realized that they were leaning towards the Shetland way back then. Even more so now. I find many people are starting to abandon AMHR for AMHA because if your horses are on the smaller side, they just do not do well in AMHR. Also, if they do not look like a Modern Shetland they do not do well either. All of my breeding horses are double registered and sale horses AMHA registered and AMHR eligible. But, the prices that we are getting for many of our horses today just do not justify the cost of registering them in two registries. If AMHR continues to go the way they are, they will soon be just a pony registry and AMHA will be for Miniature horses only. Then I only have to worry about one registry, frankly, that would be nice. Especially since my horses are small and do not look like tiny shetlands, but like the Miniature horse I fell in love with. I have always said, if I wanted to raise Shetlands, I would have bought Shetlands. I just prefer the smaller horse and temperament of the Miniature horse.

 

[iowa]

I should have listened to Lowell. He said,"Tall for show

Little for Doe"

"AMHR for Show

AMHA for Doe"

I'm stuck on this one! Does Doe really mean dough as in money?

 

[horsehug]

Hardshipping into AMHA does not close until the end of 2013.

Susan O.

 

[Yaddax3]

Renee:

You're right. It sucks to be stuck with your horses. When can I come up with a trailer to take a bunch of them off your hands? I'll take my chances in the show ring with them.

Seriously, though, I've seen how impressive your minis and breeding program has been. Your minis are far, far, far from obsolete.

 

[LaVern]

Riverdance I can't spell, but I know that AMHA requires Stallion reports, I have sent them in for 20 years. What I am saying is that inorder to hardship them into AMHR all you need is a copy of their AMHA papers.

I have sent both AMHA and AMHR stallion reports in. About 1/3 of my horses are both.

I don't know if closing the association is good for the development of the AMHA horse, but I am very proud to be a member of an association that values the papers of its member's horses.

 

[LaVern]

ASPC - priceless

AMHA - 600.00 to 1200.00 with inspection - soon to be priceless

AMHR- 100.00

I feel that the mare hardship fee should be 300.00, and stallions should be 600.00. No geldings come in. And they should have to be three years of age and inspected like the Shetlands have to be. I think that any AMHR registered mare should be worth 300.00 and any AMHR registered stallion should be worth 600.00.

I can't blame the board or the members that spent the money and took the time to go to convention to vote on this. I can only blame myself for not shooting my mouth off before convention and for not going to convention and voting.

But, even if I had done that I don't think the majority would have agreed with me.

 

[MiLo Minis]

The ones that don't agree with you Renee are the ones that are looking for a quick 'in' - they haven't spent years trying to develop the closest they can get to their ideal Mini only to have it thrown in their face that Minis in the AMHR are valueless unless they hold papers in some other registry as well. Why would anyone pay a decent dollar for our horses when they can pay $100 for one? Sign me "another disappointed EX B Mini breeder"

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I can't blame the board or the members that spent the money and took the time to go to convention to vote on this. I can only blame myself for not shooting my mouth off before convention and for not going to convention and voting.

But, even if I had done that I don't think the majority would have agreed with me.

Sadly the members did NOT have a say on this, it wasn't even mentioned. Thats why I said I wonder what the members would have said down at Convention if it was brought to the table to be voted on. I know I would have said NO.

I feel after 2013 they should double the hardship fees. Mares/Geldings $400 and Stallions $800, I wouldn't be upset if they kept just the geldings at $200, but I certainly don't think they should just come in for free or without papers like some say, but I rather see more people geld and let the registry still be more accepting of hardshipping in geldings with the acceptable papers.

It seems like this is set in stone, but I advise anyone who wants to voice their opinion to go to Convention.

 

[LaVern]

MiLo, we gotta find a new hobby. How about that ice fishing? There has got to be something to it with all the people that seem to love it. We could get one of those portable little houses with a heater in it and play checkers.

 

[Magic]

The ones that don't agree with you Renee are the ones that are looking for a quick 'in' - they haven't spent years trying to develop the closest they can get to their ideal Mini only to have it thrown in their face that Minis in the AMHR are valueless unless they hold papers in some other registry as well. Why would anyone pay a decent dollar for our horses when they can pay $100 for one? Sign me "another disappointed EX B Mini breeder"

I've owned and been breeding minis for twenty years, and my first minis were B size AMHR registered, so I don't agree with your statement, sorry. I'm not looking for a "quick in". I happen to continually purchase additional horses that I believe will cross well with the horses I currently have, in an effort to constantly improve. Two of the horses that I bought this year were AMHA-only registered, and because I liked the horses so much, and because of the hardshipping sale, I bought the horses and am getting them AMHR registered. One is stallion, one is a mare. This brings in more revenue to AMHR now (I would NOT have bought these horses without the sale since I won't have any horse here that is not AMHR registered) and will bring in more revenue in the future from their foals. Both horses are, IMO, very high quality.

What I personally see AMHR doing, and I could be wrong, is having a sale now so that people can more easily get AMHR papers on their horses, because in the near future the prices will be going back to normal prices or even higher prices, and in the not-too-distant future I think that hardshipping will be closed completely. This is likely the one chance we all have to get AMHR papers on horses not already AMHR registered. I don't see this as a bad thing. I do understand the negativity felt toward this, to some degree, but I see it as a part of a process.

 

[HGFarm]

Havent read all the posts here but LaVern I do not know where you are getting your AMHA info from. Yes, you do have to fill in a stallion report and to register your horses any time? I dont know what you are refering to? Hardshipping? No, the books close next year. AMHA has rules too, perhaps more than AMHR, so I dont understand what you are trying to say. Taking it even a step further, if they are not registered by a certain time, they need to be DNA'd. AMHR does not even require DNA so any one could slap papers on anything and say it's anything.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

She was saying that in order to hardship into AMHR all you have to use is their AMHA papers, which doesn't really make much of a argument, stallion reports are not much to go by, DNA is the answer but its hard to enforce DNA when AMHR doesn't enforce DNA on it's own.

I hope prices do increase after 2013, not sure if we are ready to close but I do feel we are definitively ready for a price increase especially after 2013 and I think that all registries should require inspection.