Stupid Old AMHR Breeder

[Jean_B]

Thanks Jean for backing me up on this one. We don't always agree, but I love it that I always know exactly how you feel. I also appreciate any one that feels sorry for me too. Right now me and anyone else that raises only amhr horses needs all the sympathy that we can get.

Went over to talk things over with Swigg this morning. He sort of puts a different slant on things.

After listening he said, " It sounds like you don't mind being a used lady, you just want to be a high price used lady."

Yeah, we could always iron out our differences after a cup (or 5) of coffee....or sitting on the floor with a bunch of other Ol' Broodmares near the elevators in Devils Lake (while you were nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs because the casino hotel is "dry" and several of us had brought some hard libations), chatting and arguing and laughing until 2:00 AM....and back at it again the next morning at 7:00 AM. DANG those were good times!! I think we ran into Swigg in the hallway.

 

[LaVern]

Until we get a Lincoln in office, I don't think that the masters up in the big plantation house are going to sell their legitimate children down the river for 100.00, when they need something.

 

[Lewella]

To demonstrate another perspective of the constant and age old comment that minis are Shetlands....

I would quickly and adamantly state that if that is a fact and it is a fact anyone embraces then I contend that the mini's are the purest form of Shetland remaining. No hackney blood was introduced no outcrossing has occured so what remains is only those little Shetlands whom had their papers thrown away. Further if this is such a common and well know and established fact that mini's are in fact little Shetlands then perhaps it's time to reverse the order of things and give all these pure mini Shetlands the Shetland papers they truly deserve and take these Shetlands with shetland papers and make them show ponies

Maybe it's time the minis just accept the fact they are Shetlands and being the largest segment of the small equine industry make it official. If the mini cannot have there own identity then just make them what they are

Ah but Ray...there is this teensy weensy problem called Revalidation. In the late 60's and early 70's all ASPC papers had to be revalidated (it was staggered - each owner was sent a letter with instructions and the date that their animals had to be revalidated by in order to remain registered ASPC Shetlands). If a ponies papers were not sent back in to be revalidated and have the revalidation sticker affixed to the back of the papers those papers became null and void. Many of the first herds registered AMHR were non-revalidated Shetland herds.

Don't kid yourself that these non-revalidated herds were "pure" either - cross breeding started "behind the barn" much earlier than cross breeding was legal.

 

[RayVik]

Double post

 

[RayVik]

That was and is exactly my point in the demonstration. I cannot think of a polite context if telling a mini owner that their animal are just unwanted Shetlands yet far too often that comment comes out so my point was and is always remember the are 2 side of a window to look thru and if anyone wants to go down that road and in some way shape or form think that telling someone their mini is just a small unwanted Shetland is a compliment then they should understand and think about what they are saying

Just to add and not to argue but your comment just furthers my demonstration as if this behind the barn activity was or was not going on the revalidation by virtue of a " stamp" did not make any pony more or less "pure" so the conjecture remains in that the purity of a mini was as pure as the breed was a the time of revalidation and hackney breeding was added after

And I have always wondered why the hackneys were needed to expand the Shetland bloodline yet the mini which was a small subset of the Shetlands overall meaning a smaller gene pool has never had influx of anything other the mini. I am sure anyone can say a few small animals of other breeds happened but never a entire breed such as hackney

Finally just as revalidation and allowing in hackneys only required 8 people saying yes changing the order of minis and their papers can be done in the same way so it becomes a matter of semantics and not a absolute

 

[Lewella]

I definitely wouldn't say they were unwanted Shetlands. You have to understand, the Shetland industry had went through a market correction during the mid 1960's the likes of which few breeds ever see. After the crash the ASPC had to know where it was and just how many animals were left - they couldn't plan for the future without that information, thus the Revalidation. Breeders had to pay a small fee to revalidate their ponies papers. Some breeders choose not to revalidate. Some of those same breeders approached the ASPC and asked them to create the AMHR. Those same breeders had teenagers in Iowa going to every sale and farm and buying them any pony that would fit under a 36" wicket and there were a lot of them!

Outcrossing wasn't to bring blood in and in reality very few Hackney bloodlines - there were very few Hackney's that could produce an animal that could stay under 46" inches with up to 3 inches of extra show foot - and even fewer Welsh and Americana contributed to the Shetland today (Hackney, Welsh, Americana and Harness Show Pony were all acceptable crosses - off the top of my head I can think of no bloodline still existing that trace to a Harness Show Pony). It may seem like a strange concept but outcrossing was legalized to bring the cheating out into the open and add some integrity back to the pedigrees. All the way back to the 1920's I can give you examples of Shetland herds that were not just Shetland...like the major breeder who ran Shetland and Welsh mares together and registered the little foals as Shetlands and the bigger foals as Welsh; or the influential early breeder who was a major importer of Hackney's into the US. L. Frank Bedell illudes to the cross breeding that was going on in his book "The Shetland Pony" published in 1959. I've been told by several old breeders that by the 1950's the "ideal" cross for the Shetland show ring was 1/2 Shetland, 1/4 Welsh, and 1/4 Hackney.

As to purity...there are a couple of colors fairly common in the miniature today that have never existed in the ASPC - Appaloosa and Champagne. Champagne comes in several different times so one has to assume several animals were bred down. We know appaloosa has come in through the Falabella and the Van't Huttenest horses from Belgium. We know of AMHR lines with known Welsh. There are AMHR lines with known Hackney. A West Coast breeder added Arabian. One line is known to have Standardbred blood. So to say the AMHR is as pure today as it was when many founding lines diverged from the ASPC in the late 1960's and early 1970's is probably not very accurate.

 

[RayVik]

I rest my case as you have explained the American Shetland Pony is not defined as "pure bloodline" or put another way has had it's share of issues and regardless is deserving of its name and heritage much the same the Miniature Horse has also had its many generations bringing it to what it is today and is just as deserving of its name it is no more a little Shetland then a Shetland is a big Mini. There is no purpose served in the inevitable dig that a mini is just a little Shetland then there would be in someone saying people from the south had slaves.

Having said that yes there are double registered animals and they ARE Shetland ponies both technically and legally and hard shipping is what makes that possible and therein is what or why it's not as simple as just having a "Sale" and expecting everyone to be happy about it. Did the sale help the " miniature horse " in its essence I would say no but did it expand the ranks of the AMHR and as proffered bring in needed income perhaps yes

So here we are and there is nothing served by trying to justify it helped the Miniature horse by say its just a little Shetland.

 

[JennyB]

Ah but Ray...there is this teensy weensy problem called Revalidation. In the late 60's and early 70's all ASPC papers had to be revalidated (it was staggered - each owner was sent a letter with instructions and the date that their animals had to be revalidated by in order to remain registered ASPC Shetlands). If a ponies papers were not sent back in to be revalidated and have the revalidation sticker affixed to the back of the papers those papers became null and void. Many of the first herds registered AMHR were non-revalidated Shetland herds.

Don't kid yourself that these non-revalidated herds were "pure" either - cross breeding started "behind the barn" much earlier than cross breeding was legal.

Lewella

You people don't have a clue! The small shetland ponies that the early breeders of "miniature horses" used were first called Midget ponies. A couple of breeders bred the smallest to the smallest to the smallest. So then other wanna be breeders with $$ decided lets take all these small midget ponies and start a registry. We will re-name them Miniatures horses. This must be done because we need them to be worth more $$$ so they are considered EXOTIC animals. They had their hands into something that for a very long time brought BIG prices and yeah those Shetland papers were dumped in the garbage because a Shetland pony itself is NOT what the Miniature Horses are, and they have NONE of those nasty, wicked ponies in them. I have heard they came from a long lost canyon and were breeding themselves down for centuries, they were bred down by the Queen of England, they trace their lines specifically to Percheron Draft horses and they come from Thoroughbreds...give me a break. .....this conversing about Mini's not being Shetland's has gone on forever!, and I can't believe there are still breeders out there who believe their Miniature Horses have no Shetland pony lines....If it were not for the lying original breeders trying to fool the public, which they did very well, then you folks who whine about, "why can't my mini have Shetland papers too!" ...you would have your papers.

Like Lewella said, there have been behind the barns hanky panky going on before most all of us were born and if you think there is NOT hanky panky still going on with ASPC, AMHR and AMHA animals then you have blinders on. Hackney ponies are already in both AMHR and AMHA Miniature Horses.

If it were not for the Shetland pony and ASPC none of you would have the wonderful Miniature Horses that you have, be they under 34" or under 38" tall. Grant it none of the registries are without their faults and shady dealings, but quit blaming the Shetland Pony for all the problems with Miniature Horses! Let us work together to live with what we have, God given, and continue to work on issues we are so passionate about. Nothing is perfect, not even the "American" Shetland Pony" because believe you me, so many were/are Hackney-Welsh influenced. Many very early importers of Shetland's from the island's wanted a taller more refined carriage pony and not the shorter thelwell type that is still being successfully bred and shown in Europe today....Many island ponies were crossed with Arabians and other island ponies. These taller ponies that the American breeders wanted were called "ridden" (tall cross-breds) and the islander's were all to happy to take the American's $$ paid for them. Then it was an easy next step to cross then with Hackney's. If you read, you read that many very early and successful Shetland pony breeders were also Hackney's breeders and the didn't hide it, it's in the advertisements!! .......sneak a little Hackney here and here in early day, now a day Shetland ponies, AMHR and AMHA Miniature Horses wouldn't hurt a thing...would it!?!

I am sorry that I got off the original topic, but I am paaaionate about all this and I guess we all can't agree that Miniature Horses are either registered Shetland or are grade Shetland ponies??? Why is that so hard to grasp? I adore Miniature Horses and love how they have changed into a more refined equine.... Look what I just said!...this is the same thing breeders have been saying about all equines since they started raising them here in America. They have changed the breeds of ponies(except the Icelandics), the Arabian Horses, Quarter Horses, Morgans and Thoroughbreds all making them prettier, but weaker animals. Arabian horses are just pretty equines that have a hard time working, Quarter horses have evolved to have tiny hooves and show with their heads almost touching the dirt, mind you Arabians too, Morgans look nothing like the used to and have ya ever wondered why we can't have anymore Triple Crown winners? They are breeding weak studs to weak mares and you get colts and fillies that have that bred-in-them desire to run as fast as they can, but their legs break down! There are exceptions to all breeds.

I could go on and on....the bottom line here is that we "humans" really like to change things to our liking, this then comes with consequences. People will always do what they want, especially if money is involved. You need to continue to own and breed what you want, that is your right. ...and I guess it's your right too to say your Miniature Horses have no Shetland breeding too! Last time I checked this was a free country with free speech...IMO going right down the tubes, but if you want ASPC, AMHR, AMHA to make changes then go to the Convention meetings and bring up the things you would like to be changed, but quit beating up the very pony who has given you what you have in the first place...!

 

[RayVik]

Lewella already pointed out that the miniature horse has shetland and hackney and welsh background and perhaps a few unknowns and that was when they were still called midget ponies ... I think everyone has to agree with that

So no argument here ...

 

[Sandee]

JennyB ------

 

[disneyhorse]

I think quarter horses allowed thoroughbred breeding, making them appendix quarter horses.... But that doesn't mean they should be allowed to get thoroughbred papers.

The important thing is to move forward.

 

[dreaminmini]

Lewella

You people don't have a clue! The small shetland ponies that the early breeders of "miniature horses" used were first called Midget ponies. A couple of breeders bred the smallest to the smallest to the smallest. So then other wanna be breeders with $$ decided lets take all these small midget ponies and start a registry. We will re-name them Miniatures horses. This must be done because we need them to be worth more $$$ so they are considered EXOTIC animals. They had their hands into something that for a very long time brought BIG prices and yeah those Shetland papers were dumped in the garbage because a Shetland pony itself is NOT what the Miniature Horses are, and they have NONE of those nasty, wicked ponies in them. I have heard they came from a long lost canyon and were breeding themselves down for centuries, they were bred down by the Queen of England, they trace their lines specifically to Percheron Draft horses and they come from Thoroughbreds...give me a break. .....this conversing about Mini's not being Shetland's has gone on forever!, and I can't believe there are still breeders out there who believe their Miniature Horses have no Shetland pony lines....If it were not for the lying original breeders trying to fool the public, which they did very well, then you folks who whine about, "why can't my mini have Shetland papers too!" ...you would have your papers.

Like Lewella said, there have been behind the barns hanky panky going on before most all of us were born and if you think there is NOT hanky panky still going on with ASPC, AMHR and AMHA animals then you have blinders on. Hackney ponies are already in both AMHR and AMHA Miniature Horses.

If it were not for the Shetland pony and ASPC none of you would have the wonderful Miniature Horses that you have, be they under 34" or under 38" tall. Grant it none of the registries are without their faults and shady dealings, but quit blaming the Shetland Pony for all the problems with Miniature Horses! Let us work together to live with what we have, God given, and continue to work on issues we are so passionate about. Nothing is perfect, not even the "American" Shetland Pony" because believe you me, so many were/are Hackney-Welsh influenced. Many very early importers of Shetland's from the island's wanted a taller more refined carriage pony and not the shorter thelwell type that is still being successfully bred and shown in Europe today....Many island ponies were crossed with Arabians and other island ponies. These taller ponies that the American breeders wanted were called "ridden" (tall cross-breds) and the islander's were all to happy to take the American's $$ paid for them. Then it was an easy next step to cross then with Hackney's. If you read, you read that many very early and successful Shetland pony breeders were also Hackney's breeders and the didn't hide it, it's in the advertisements!! .......sneak a little Hackney here and here in early day, now a day Shetland ponies, AMHR and AMHA Miniature Horses wouldn't hurt a thing...would it!?!

I am sorry that I got off the original topic, but I am paaaionate about all this and I guess we all can't agree that Miniature Horses are either registered Shetland or are grade Shetland ponies??? Why is that so hard to grasp? I adore Miniature Horses and love how they have changed into a more refined equine.... Look what I just said!...this is the same thing breeders have been saying about all equines since they started raising them here in America. They have changed the breeds of ponies(except the Icelandics), the Arabian Horses, Quarter Horses, Morgans and Thoroughbreds all making them prettier, but weaker animals. Arabian horses are just pretty equines that have a hard time working, Quarter horses have evolved to have tiny hooves and show with their heads almost touching the dirt, mind you Arabians too, Morgans look nothing like the used to and have ya ever wondered why we can't have anymore Triple Crown winners? They are breeding weak studs to weak mares and you get colts and fillies that have that bred-in-them desire to run as fast as they can, but their legs break down! There are exceptions to all breeds.

I could go on and on....the bottom line here is that we "humans" really like to change things to our liking, this then comes with consequences. People will always do what they want, especially if money is involved. You need to continue to own and breed what you want, that is your right. ...and I guess it's your right too to say your Miniature Horses have no Shetland breeding too! Last time I checked this was a free country with free speech...IMO going right down the tubes, but if you want ASPC, AMHR, AMHA to make changes then go to the Convention meetings and bring up the things you would like to be changed, but quit beating up the very pony who has given you what you have in the first place...!

Not sure anyone is arguing that the Miniature Horse did not evolve from the Shetland Pony. But they were created to be their own entity by this registry. Breeders spent many years evolving the miniature horse into what it is today. That fact must be recognized. There are many horse breeds that become diluted but as Disneyhorse said the Appendix Quarterhorse does not get to have both Quarter horse and Thoroughbred papers. Nor the Arab crosses or the Morgan crosses. Now us Miniature horse people are just expected to sit back and let the ponies come in and take over and since most of the judges are pony people just take a guess who is winning in the ring??? But us mini people are just supposed to shut up and play nice because minis came from Shetlands dontcha know. We were created to be something different and we were hugely popular but all the effort these mini breeders put in don't count for anything now. Why can't the miniature evolve into it's own breed in it's own right. Thoroughbreds evolved from the Arab way back when but is a Thoroughbred an Arab? No. Does it hold papers to both registries??? No. Do the Hackney/Shetlands hold papers in both registries??? It just seems the ASPC wants it all its own way. Those that create also take it away.

I am not bashing Shetlands, I admire them, I watch Congress and enjoy watching when they are at the same show. Some are very beautiful, regal, and exciting to watch. But cannot I not admire and respect them but also admire and respect what the miniature horse has become. We love our miniature horse like you love your Shetlands. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I firmly believe it is not the pony itself that is the problem but the issues that are created when cross registering.

 

[Minimor]

I don't see that the minis have taken a different direction so much as they just haven't changed a whole bunch from

the small ponies they came from. There are many, many minis who are still very like the small ponies I rode and drive as a kid.

In any case, I has to point out that stopping the hardshipping...or raising the hardshipping fee...is not going to stop people from showing oversize horses. It isn't only the ponies that grow taller, there are plenty of AMHR-only horses (who don't have a single registered Shetland anywhere near their pedigrees) who are taller than AMHR technically allows. Give me 24 hours or less and I could come up with quite a number if them more or less "locally". Most of them aren't even bred to be tall--they are off smaller parents, but they just growed!

Given how people have sneaked other breeding into certain breeds over the years...it would be very easy for someone, anyone, to sneak a pony into their mini breeding program--I don't know anyone that has done it, but unwound bet someone somewhere has done it and will do it in future.

With or without the ponies, people will cheat.

 

[disneyhorse]

Not sure anyone is arguing that the Miniature Horse did not evolve from the Shetland Pony. But they were created to be their own entity by this registry. Breeders spent many years evolving the miniature horse into what it is today. That fact must be recognized. There are many horse breeds that become diluted but as Disneyhorse said the Appendix Quarterhorse does not get to have both Quarter horse and Thoroughbred papers. Nor the Arab crosses or the Morgan crosses. Now us Miniature horse people are just expected to sit back and let the ponies come in and take over and since most of the judges are pony people just take a guess who is winning in the ring??? But us mini people are just supposed to shut up and play nice because minis came from Shetlands dontcha know. We were created to be something different and we were hugely popular but all the effort these mini breeders put in don't count for anything now. Why can't the miniature evolve into it's own breed in it's own right. Thoroughbreds evolved from the Arab way back when but is a Thoroughbred an Arab? No. Does it hold papers to both registries??? No. Do the Hackney/Shetlands hold papers in both registries???

Actually, yes... There ARE some ponies that hold ASPC and AHHS (hackney) papers. These ponies are pretty hard to find and are generally pretty valuable.

Papers don't guarantee quality. I've seen AMHR only horses that are nicer and have placed better than double registered ponies. Those who are so "against the ponies" just seem so close minded to me.

 

[disneyhorse]

I see the resurgence back to the Shetlands as sort of a renaissance and a "resetting" of the mini breed. Minis started with ponies, but the original intent was to just breed lots of the SMALLEST, with little regard to quality. That is why the breed is plagued with dwarfism, weak hips, low set necks, and a myriad of other conformational challenges.

The Shetlands improve conformation and movement, which is so desired now, and that is why there is a shift back towards the original American shetland. People are now breeding the ASPC to be under 34" but more cautiously than decades before.

 

[RayVik]

Unfortunately someone who might be pro mini is to often labeled anti Shetland. I don't think that is the case at all at least for my part as I am quickly approaching owning more Shetlands then minis or should I say double registered animals. Just because someone wants respect and recognition that the miniature horse is in the AMHR under 38" and not 42" with a 3" heel with the beauty and grace of a modern pony does not make that 38" " grade" or " midget" or any less loved or having less pride by the owner

Perhaps many people were deceived or lied to when they bought there first mini and as has be once again explain the miniature horse was s huge market deception and that is something those naive buyers of yesteryear cannot deny nor should they want to as that can be harnessed and direct toward making the best of what they have.

Why some people find it self serving to hinder any efforts toward pride or passion toward that naive mistake made by those who bought into the deception by constantly reminding those of it as well as doing so as if they somehow by there ownership of Shetlands rather then minis have some innate right to do so. I for one am very proud they were too smart to be deceived but I did not buy horses from them so they did me no wrong but how they can find such pride in a deception neither they perpetuated or had party too is a mystery. Sometimes it comes off like kids all rallying behind the bully that is picking on the little kid at school.

Even the friendliest of dogs will snap at you of picked at long enough and then when it does snap at you and you say something about it your called anti dog

 

[LaVern]

Got the Turkey in, so back to the Forum.

Just wondering what a lawyer would say about half price hardship sale and not half price on only AMHR breeders fees. ( Guess I'll ask that old ambulance chaser relative)

I want to pay 10 bucks to register a baby,instead of 20.

Maybe it should just cost 1/2 price to advertise an only AMHR horse in Journal.

Maybe trainers should just charge 1/2 price to train and show an only AMHR horse.

Maybe judges that judge only AMHR horses should have to cut their fees in half.

Maybe entry fees at Nationals should be 1/2 price at Nationals or other shows for the only AMHR horse.

I wonder how they would feel about cutting the price they get for what they provide in half?

It's all about the money and the devaluing of the AMHR horse to me.

 

[RayVik]

Lavern

In the strangest of ways it was about the money but I don't believe in the way you might think

I sat in the BOD meeting when this decision was made and let me offer what I saw as to how it went

It began with the idea that ALL hardship fees should be increased to the same as the AMHR as there is a segment of our organization who pays much less to get papers. What followed was a debate about if this particular "fee" was even a hardship fee or not and progressed into the idea that raising this fee would stifle the growth and participation and even make it prohibitive cost wise to people who might otherwise join this particular segment. Mind you the original intent was to raise that fee. After about 10 mins of the debate and the idea having shifted toward the raising of this initial fee would or might inhibit growth of that segment a director had the brain storm to LOWER the hardship fee for AMHR or as it called have a "sale" the focus having turned toward what could be done to increase revenue and membership this idea of a " sale" was quickly embraced and passed. Not a single utterance was offered regarding any impact or other ramifications regarding its application other then if its cheap people will buy. So the quick thinking and tunnel vision of the matter of doing something to improve our numbers won out that day and brought us the "sale"

So as I saw it I would say yes it was about the money but did not end the way it started.

 

[LaVern]

That's the craziest thing. So there really wasn't any thought given to the breeder of the AMHR only horse at all. Just to make a buck for the club.

Well, I wonder what I will find out when I ask if we have any right to demand half of our last year and this year regular AMHR only registration money be refuned.

Really, I hate sue crazy people and would never do that, but would like to find out.

 

[Minimor]

Now that you mention it perhaps everyone who has ever paid more than $100 for an AMHR horse should ask for a refund of the difference? Paid $1000? Should now get $900 refunded...since you are determined that AMHR horses are worth only $100. Just sayin!!