Texas Vet Board response to public hearing

[Tony]

We have asked for people to write and also to attend the public hearing in Austin on August 20 and thank many, many of you for your support and help! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Carl just sent me this letter that a vet friend sent him that shows the board trying to drum up support. I thought that is extremely interesting that it asks vets that don't even work on horses to come voice their support. Hmmm. Hadn't thought of that. We thought that the people concerned, i.e. that have horses or practice on horses should be heard. Very interesting.

Thanks again, and keep it up, Tony Greaves

IMPORTANT: Veterinarians, Please Testify at the State Board Meeting

TVMA Members,

The Texas State Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners will be holding a public hearing on August 20, 2010 at 9:00 a.m. to receive public testimony on the proposed new dental rule. The board has invited veterinarians, horse owners and the unsupervised, unregulated, non-veterinarians to testify on the proposed rule, which specifies that the definition of dentistry does NOT include floating the teeth of animals with hand floats. Adoption of this rule opens the door to allowing anyone to rasp or cut the long projections or points of animal teeth without any sort of training, experience or supervision while inaccurately marketing themselves as an animal dentist. You may review the full text of the proposed rule and state boards description of the rule by clicking HERE.

It is highly likely that the non-veterinarians will show up in large numbers to this hearing to speak in favor of the proposed rule change. This makes it extremely important that veterinarians show up in full force to defend the science behind animal health and welfare as well as the states horse owners and the veterinary profession. This matter is extremely important to every all veterinarian whether you practice equine dentistry or not. This meeting will provide an excellent opportunity to educate the board and the public on the science behind animal dentistry and show the danger of allowing non-veterinarians to freely and openly practice dentistry.

Each interested person will probably be given at least 3 minutes to speak. Since explaining the science behind a technical medical procedure often takes longer than 3 minutes, additional comments should be made in writing and submitted as public comment. If you will attend, please let us know by replying to [email protected]. If you are unable to attend, it is still important that you submit public comments on this issue by mail to Loris Jones, Texas Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners, 333 Guadalupe, Ste. 3-810, Austin, Texas 78701-3942, or by email at [email protected].

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Choate, JD

Director of Government Relations/General Counsel

Texas Veterinary Medical Association

Office: 512/452-4224

Fax: 512/452-6633

Email: [email protected]

Location of the meeting

William P Hobby Building, Room 100

333 Guadalupe

Austin, TX

 

[Echo Acres]

I am a little confused after reading this. To me it is in support of only vets doing the equine dentistry. I have a hard time with this as some vets have no clue as to properly do the procedure. I hope that all works out for Carl. He did a great job on our horses and would let him work on them any time with confindence that he would do a great job.

 

[ruffian]

License equine denistry (read CONTROL THE MARKET AND CHARGE MORE) now, farrier's could be next!! I could see this also being set up to register/license AI techs, and more.

 

[ClickMini]

Just a thought, and this is definitely not aimed at Carl. He may be a terrific equine dentist. I have never used him because he is out of my area and we have equine dentists at our vet hospital. The problem with opening this up completely is that there are OTHER people who decide they are dentists that don't have the expertise or knowledge to do this. Honestly, a person can do a LOT of painful damage to a horse's mouth! If a person doesn't have a license, how do you know what their qualifications are? How would you get proof of those qualifications?

Our state doesn't allow unlicensed veterinarians to practice dentistry. I don't really have a problem with that. We have quite a few vets that specialize in dentistry and some of them have mobile practices. I have a feeling that if it became restricted to vets in your state, there are a number of vets who would get up to speed and become specialists. Personally, if a person was pulling teeth, etc. I would want my horse to be sedated. Just sayin'. I wouldn't want someone yanking teeth out of my mouth without sedation/numbing!

 

[HGFarm]

Folks have to realize that horses nervous systems and other things are not quite the same as humans. If they were, I dont think a horse would ever even tolerate a bit in it's mouth, let alone tolerate abuse by it without flipping out. I am sure this also applies to some extractions and other dental work done. I have had teeth pulled from horses and five minutes later they were eating with no problem.

It is up to the consumer to find someone that is a good reputable equine dentist for their horses- just like you would a trainer, farrier, etc..... I would NEVER just hire Joe Blow from down the road to work on my horses teeth, just like I wouldn't for the other aforementioned things. But it should be the consumer's CHOICE as to who they want to use (and if they don't do the research or hire someone because he is local or cheap then there is no one to blame but himself)

I do have Carl work on my horses and would not want to have anyone else. I know MANY vets who in a lifetime, could never do the work as well as Carl. I am sure there are other good equine dentists out there as well. My vet doesn't even do teeth any more- the clients are refered to equine dentists, as many other vets here do as well.

I think what the TX vets are trying to do is ridiculous and by calling upon 'all their friends' I hope that someone at the court will ask the credentials, experience and knowledge of equine dentistry of each of these individuals who will be able to speak!

And here years ago there was already talk of trying to restrict farriers and include them in some new rules. So far it has been shot down but when one thing seems to get passed, others follow quickly.

 

[ClickMini]

Folks have to realize that horses nervous systems and other things are not quite the same as humans.

I am not saying that anyone in particular is doing things that hurt horses. I have only ever heard good things about Carl.

However! I completely disagree with the above quote! People have used that excuse forever to commit terrible atrocities against animals of all types. They may HANDLE pain differently than us, but they certainly do FEEL pain like us!!!

 

[JWC sr.]

Laurie you are exactly right with your comment about finding the most competent person available to work on our horses teeth. We owe them that at a minimum. With that said the most competent people are not vets in our State, they are equine dentists.

Most competent and caring Vets. will admit it and refer you to one of the good lay dentist here in Texas and Oklahoma.

People have to realize that some sort of accreditation such as Carl and a number of others have from the equine dentistry group that they belong to is not easy to get and they are screened very carefully to gain admittance both for experience and proficiency.

If you want to know how trained your Vet is ask them how much time was spent in Vet. School on dentistry and floating etc. You will be amazed at the tiny amount of time spent on this portion of equine care that is so important to miniature horses with their propensity toward getting points on the rear teeth and forcing their bites off etc.

A practical approach to this situation within reason would be fine, but all this amounts to is an attempt to make a money grab by the Vet. Association. They see an opportunity to be able to force these folks under their umbrella and charge for it, even though they bring very little to the table in experience and/or value to the horses or owners of the horses.

I have spoken with three vets in our area and they have all said that they are not interested in supervising folks that are more competent than they are in equine dentistry. Unless drugs are required to sedate a horse the vets have no place in this situation, between us as mini owners and our personal choices of whom we want to have work on our horses in this critical area of care for them.

This is going to be a long process and the fight is going to get nasty before it is over in my opinion. We mini horse owners here in Texas do not intend to take this lightly and will continue to fight it with the help of the League of Justice lawyers that are representing Carl and others involved in this dispute. Thanks goodness they have seen fit to try and help us all out, or our horses would suffer for it.

 

[sfmini]

The vets around us just won't do teeth, they have gotten rid of their equipment. I wouldn't want to use them anyway, like others have said (our vet included), Carl is the best and I would hate for him to lose his career. Of course, we would be thrilled to have him move back to the midwest so we could have easier access to him!! My vet actually talked to him about working out of her practice, seems they know each other from many years ago. She was more than happy to come sedate a mare of mine for him to work on. When he first tried, the mare got upset and he said she would need sedation but since she was in foal he wouldn't work on her until the next trip AND he will not sedate horses, says to have the vet come to do it.

The nerve endings in a horse's teeth are nothing like ours, I am sure they do feel some pain but recover quickly (in seconds) and I personally would not want to risk the use of drugs on a horse if I don't have to.

Several vets have told me that they only get a few hours of dentistry during their education and don't feel anywhere near as qualified as Carl.

Such a shame that he has to go through all of this.

Until you actually see Carl work and/or see one of his presentations, you just won't get it. I know I didn't when he came many years ago to our club meeting to speak and work on horses after the meeting. Very much an eye opener and made me a believer.

 

[wildoak]

Amen to everything Laurie and John have said.

I don't know of anyone who would want a hack with a file working on their horses, but the right to choose is at stake - something we shouldn't take lightly - as well as the welfare of lots of horses, and a number of careers. Putting aside the other issues for a moment, look at the economics of it. If we have to start paying vets - or paying more for the vets to supervise - there will be a lot of horses who just don't get dental care. It may be prohibitively expensive for some, and not necessarily any better care. The dental care for my herd of 30 plus would probably at least double. I have no issue with the state requiring some kind of certification. Let's be sure they know what they are doing, have at least the ones entering the profession take a test. That would be in the best interest of the horses, but what's happening is primarily in the best interests of the vets. (I have great vets, I love my vets and pay well for the use of their skills but I don't opt to use them for dentistry).

Jan

 

[Dona]

Laurie you are exactly right with your comment about finding the most competent person available to work on our horses teeth. We owe them that at a minimum. With that said the most competent people are not vets in our State, they are equine dentists.

Most competent and caring Vets. will admit it and refer you to one of the good lay dentist here in Texas and Oklahoma.

People have to realize that some sort of accreditation such as Carl and a number of others have from the equine dentistry group that they belong to is not easy to get and they are screened very carefully to gain admittance both for experience and proficiency.

If you want to know how trained your Vet is ask them how much time was spent in Vet. School on dentistry and floating etc. You will be amazed at the tiny amount of time spent on this portion of equine care that is so important to miniature horses with their propensity toward getting points on the rear teeth and forcing their bites off etc.

A practical approach to this situation within reason would be fine, but all this amounts to is an attempt to make a money grab by the Vet. Association. They see an opportunity to be able to force these folks under their umbrella and charge for it, even though they bring very little to the table in experience and/or value to the horses or owners of the horses.

I have spoken with three vets in our area and they have all said that they are not interested in supervising folks that are more competent than they are in equine dentistry. Unless drugs are required to sedate a horse the vets have no place in this situation, between us as mini owners and our personal choices of whom we want to have work on our horses in this critical area of care for them.

This is going to be a long process and the fight is going to get nasty before it is over in my opinion. We mini horse owners here in Texas do not intend to take this lightly and will continue to fight it with the help of the League of Justice lawyers that are representing Carl and others involved in this dispute. Thanks goodness they have seen fit to try and help us all out, or our horses would suffer for it.

I couldn't have said it better, John.....I agree 100%

 

[Dona]

The vets around us just won't do teeth, they have gotten rid of their equipment. I wouldn't want to use them anyway, like others have said (our vet included), Carl is the best and I would hate for him to lose his career. Of course, we would be thrilled to have him move back to the midwest so we could have easier access to him!! My vet actually talked to him about working out of her practice, seems they know each other from many years ago. She was more than happy to come sedate a mare of mine for him to work on. When he first tried, the mare got upset and he said she would need sedation but since she was in foal he wouldn't work on her until the next trip AND he will not sedate horses, says to have the vet come to do it.

The nerve endings in a horse's teeth are nothing like ours, I am sure they do feel some pain but recover quickly (in seconds) and I personally would not want to risk the use of drugs on a horse if I don't have to.

Several vets have told me that they only get a few hours of dentistry during their education and don't feel anywhere near as qualified as Carl.

Such a shame that he has to go through all of this.

Until you actually see Carl work and/or see one of his presentations, you just won't get it. I know I didn't when he came many years ago to our club meeting to speak and work on horses after the meeting. Very much an eye opener and made me a believer.

I'm with you all the way Jodi!

People just do not understand that most vets simply cannot do the job on Miniatures that Carl can do! My own vet (who specializes in equine) admitted it years ago & was glad I had someone like Carl to work on my Minis! I'M A BELIEVER TOO!

And have been for many years!

 

[gvpalominominis]

I have had the same vet for over 30 years and consider him a friend and trust my horses to him with their lives. That being said, I have used Carl for all the dental work I can. Besides the vast difference in the cost and the financial ability to have more horses teeth checked (like the entire herd instead of 2).... I have been very pleased with Carl's work, work ethic and demeanor and handling of the horses. Even my pregnant mares, horses young and old are not bothered by Carl's work being done and immediately go back to munching after he's done. No sedatives, no drama and very very little struggle, if at all. Some struggle more being clipped, bred, and/or trimmed. I had one older pregnant mare that he felt needed more work than just float and simple extraction and he referred me on to best be done under sedation with the vet.

Carl pulls caps off so fast, the horse doesn't even realize it. = ) In most cases, he's done in minutes. In my opinion, he is not doing anything more than a farrier does to the foot part of the horse.... Just as there are bad vets that make mistakes, incorrect diagnosis.. there are also bad farriers that have cost many horses foot and leg issues I'm sure, as I've heard a few horror stories. So just the same it could be possible to get a bad equine dentist. Like any thing else it pays to research any of them before working on your animals. Farrier's won't be next though... trimming feet and shoeing is physically laborious and taxing...

I don't use the practice of sedating horses to clip - I'm not against or for it- I just prefer not to sedate if I don't have to. I will use a twitch when needed however and I'm sure some people are against twitching.

The vets I HAVE had work on my horse's teeth, were not proficient, missed work that was needed, charged me for doing something they didn't (bit seat) and charged 10x more than an equine dentist overall!

I don't know if Amy's correct about our state because I've seen equine dentist advertised here and I will continue to have them work on my horses when I can. = )

 

[ClickMini]

JoAnne, who is the equine dentist you are referring to? Are you sure it isn't a vet?

I really don't have room to say one way or another. We are lucky to have an equine dentistry specialist based 15 minutes down the road. They are a large regional referral hospital with many specialists; I feel blessed on many levels to have them so close. I didn't know there was an accrediting organization for equine dentists. If so, that is great. Mainly I thought that by opening the door to one fantastic equine dentist by all accounts, you are opening the door to others without nearly the skill. If there is an accrediting agency of some sort, that would definitely relieve any concerns.

 

[Dona]

JoAnne, who is the equine dentist you are referring to? Are you sure it isn't a vet?

I really don't have room to say one way or another. We are lucky to have an equine dentistry specialist based 15 minutes down the road. They are a large regional referral hospital with many specialists; I feel blessed on many levels to have them so close. I didn't know there was an accrediting organization for equine dentists. If so, that is great. Mainly I thought that by opening the door to one fantastic equine dentist by all accounts, you are opening the door to others without nearly the skill. If there is an accrediting agency of some sort, that would definitely relieve any concerns.

As it has already been mentioned in this thread...

"accreditation such as Carl and a number of others have from the equine dentistry group that they belong to is not easy to get and they are screened very carefully to gain admittance both for experience and proficiency."

 

[gvpalominominis]

JoAnne, who is the equine dentist you are referring to? Are you sure it isn't a vet?

I really don't have room to say one way or another. We are lucky to have an equine dentistry specialist based 15 minutes down the road. They are a large regional referral hospital with many specialists; I feel blessed on many levels to have them so close. I didn't know there was an accrediting organization for equine dentists. If so, that is great. Mainly I thought that by opening the door to one fantastic equine dentist by all accounts, you are opening the door to others without nearly the skill. If there is an accrediting agency of some sort, that would definitely relieve any concerns.

Hi Amy... I couldn't even tell you how long ago or where I had seen it... but I called the WA St Vet Assoc. and they referred to RCW – 18.92.010 and looked it up.... The RCW states that it is a requirement to be a licensed vet to practice equine dentistry. I just didn't know for sure from what I had seen.

I believe there are several main concerns, at least to me as a horse owner... and that is the safety of my horse first, knowledge of the person doing the work and the quality of work being completed. I don't believe that just because a person has a veterinarian license, it gives them automatic knowledge or the ability to proficiently float teeth or understand the problems that our Miniature Horses incur. Heck... some of them can't even gauge how much sedation to give them!

There will always be a need for vets, I just don't agree that they are the only ones capable of doing equine dentistry. Given my experiences.... they've been pretty crappy at it actually as I explained before. I would think you'd know if you had pulled wolf teeth or not....or drilled a special seat for a bit... That was almost a $1000 down the drain on just 2 horses!