To dock or not to dock a pups tail

[capall beag]

Hi,

I am the proud owner of 4 JRT's!!!!! All have their tails docked but I am already worrying about when I breed them if I would dock the puppies tails!!

This is my view on it what is yours, but I am not 100% sure how I feel and would like to get a cross section of views!!

I think originally there was good reason to dock a dogs tail but it no longer exists. I think the only reason I would do it is because would be sellers might be put off by the different look, I don't think this is a good reason for me to do it so I think I will leave them with their tails. If a potential buyer doesn't like the look then there are not the right person for the dog!

I bred labs before and with the first litter I had the dewclaws removed by the vet. It was a horrendous experience for my dog, the momma, and therefore for me and I felt horrible when I got my 7 little bloody pups back. The second litter I researched it more and decided not to have them removed and never regretted my decision. All 10 pups were sold by 4 weeks of age and not one person Q'ed my decision.

Just as a note, I am from Ireland, we do not remove dewclaws there and docking of tails is no longer necessary for the showring. It is still legal if done by a vet, I think, but many dogs are no longer docked. Surgically altering the ear was always illegal in Ireland. I believe the UK and Australia have similar rules as Ireland.

PLEASE note I just would like to hear opinions, this is not a you vs them.

Like I said I am still a bit on the fence about it but was awake for an hour last night thinking about it!!!!!

I think JRT's look lovely with their tails.

I know there are lots of doggy people who visit here and I would value their opinions whatever they might be!!

For anyone who does not know, docking is done on day 2 or 3 after the pup is born. I would have my vet do it but some people do it themselves. It is legal and well accepted in the US.

 

[Narrow Way Farm]

We always dock our pups around day 3 and we do personally prefer to have our vet do it, they also do the dew-claws the same time as well... one thing we do not do is crop the ears on our miniature schnauzers. Some prefer them that way but we choose to leave them natural... we have one female whose ears naturally stand erect, but one does not.. now if the new owners of our pups want to crop the ears that is done when they purchase them and they are to take them to the vets not us.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have never docked- not the Dobes, not the Corgis, don't like it, don't like the look of it, YUK- OK sorry

When I have had enquiries for Showing specifically I have always pointed out the drawbacks of showing an undocked dog, and have made sure I have the phone number of a breeder known to me who has docked pups for sale- that way everyone can go home happy. When the enquiry is not for showing I do not mention the tails and have only ever had two people notice- one a guy who wanted a Dobe for Guard work and fell around laughing at the suggestion that people might not take an undocked dog seriously, and the other was with the corgis, one couple just did not like the tail- their choice, I sent them somewhere they could get a docked one!!

I have shown my Dobes undocked- of course they have their ears as well, and I have always had acceptable results.

I do not actually believe any of the hype about the reasons dogs tails were docked- there has never been a real need, it was all the "look".

Dobes had their tails and ears removed because Herr Dobermann was a tax collector and he wanted a dog that looked and acted mean!!! Nothing else.

Terriers were docked to make it easier to pull them out of holes (always a good thing in my book) but you can actually do it just as easily with a full tailed dog (believe me, I know!!)

So Fiona, follow your heart.

My heart would tell me to leave them as nature intended.

I'm looking for a Min Schnauzer at the moment- but it MUST have a tail!!!

 

[Jenn]

Personally, I feel if you are breeding dogs - or any other animal, for that matter - you should conform to the breed standard. I have cocker spaniels and their tails are docked. They would look awfully funny with full tails and honestly, a lot of people would question their purebred status if they were left with tails. Plus, that cocker spaniel wiggle - where the whole bum wags - would lose some of its cuteness of there was a big ol' tail whipping around, too. I like to say there's something loose back there when a dog has a good happy wiggle.

For dewclaws, I feel if the animals are indoor pets, the dewclaws should be removed for the sake of your children and furniture - one less nail to get scratched with. If they are outdoor and/or working animals, the dewclaws can be left on.

 

[capall beag]

Thanks for the input so far!!

Rabbitfizz do you ahve a pic of an undocked Corgi? Just curious?

What do you think of the Cardi's?

I know I figure if I am already losing sleep that is a sign!!

Like I have said though to each their own!

 

[mininik]

My first litters of Poodles were docked and their dewclaws were removed at three days old. It was heart-wrenching to see them squirm and scream, and for what? My last litter has been left natural as I could no longer stand to mutilate my pups. I think they'll mature beautifully and so do their new parents.

 

[minimomNC]

If you are getting bloody, mutilated pups from having dewclaws removed then you need a new vet. I worked for a vet that does dock tails, removes dewclaws and crops ears. While my opinion of if I like it or not doesn't matter, a puppy never left bloody and messy. And for all the ones I was part of helping with, there was very little blood in the first place. Same with tails. And I have seen alot done on different breeds. Now ear crops are what I don't like, but again its up to the person that owns the pet. I have seen cropped puppies acting normal by the evening of the same day. They are happy and playful by morning. They don't seem bothered by the wraps. It all depends on just how good the vet is, doing any procedure.

 

[bcody]

Well, here is my 2 cents. I do not like docking. I do not see the point. Just for looks is not good enough for me. Now, that said, I have always had keeshonds, nothing on them is docked. I recently got a standard schnauzer puppy who does have her tail done, not at my request the breeder does all the tails, but she has natural ears and I love them! Her father is an import from Norway, he has tail and ears and is doing very well competing here despite that, good for him! She also has her dew claws removed. I have one kees with her dew claws and one without. It has made no difference in my old girl to still have them.

 

[mininik]

No, no new vet is necessary here. There was surprisingly little blood during the procedures but yes, you are mutilating an animal when you remove part of it's body.

 

[Sunny]

I had my pups' tails and dew claws done last week by the owner of the sire, along with his wife and daughter. He would prepare the tail and claws by swabbing them with iodine, wife would hold the pup in position to avoid squirming and possibly causing an accident, and daughter would cut the tail. She used a scissors/clamp thing which stayed on to prevent bleeding while they did the dewclaws. They then applied StopBlood (?) powder and the pups were placed on a white sheet for a few minutes to make sure there was no blood. If even a trace was found, more powder was applied. Yes, the puppies did make a lot of noise but I think it was mostly from not knowing what was happening. Certainly we touch the puppies a lot but we're not in the habit of picking them up yet, so this was quite a scary thing, especially considering the fact that the moms were not even in the same room with them. Once they were all reunited, they all settled down peacefully without another peep.

There's no need for this to be a barbaric, painful experience. The owner of the sire likened it to a baby boy being circumcised......

Why did I have them done? Mostly for the breed standard as Jenn pointed out above. I've never even seen a JRT with its full tail and don't know how long it would be. Pretty long, I'd guess, judging by how much we took off the pups.

When our babies are a little more dog-like in appearance, I'll have some photos to post. Right now they look like a bunch of fat little guinea pigs!

Their eyes should be opening pretty soon (they're 11 and 12 days old) and then the fun will begin!

 

[Candleliteranch]

We raise Old English Sheepdogs and YES we do dock tails and remove dews. It's the breed standard and part of the essence of the "bobtail" breed. I can't imagine watching a dog do the sheepdog shuffle with a big long tail

We also raise Pugs and remove their dewclaws. I worked as a vet assistant for 12 years until two years ago. People sometimes forget to trim the dews when they trim the rest of the nails, and they curl and grow right into the skin. Also a lot of older owners are on blood thinners and a scratch from a dewclaw can be damaging to them.

We always do them at 2-3 days and the procedure is quick and the puppies stop fussing as soon as we put them back in with the rest of the litter. We NEVER take mamas along. It only causes undo stress for them. I also agree that if a puppy is messy and bloody afterward, the vet is not doing something right. A puppy certainly should not look mutilated after a simple tail dock or dew removal.

I hate ear cropping. Not that the results don't look good on most breeds, but that can be very painful and is a surgery that does require anesthesia.

That said, each breeder must do what feels right for them.

 

[shminifancier]

rabbit I am with you all the way on this one.

 

[Jill]

I agree, if you are breeding purebred dogs and the standard is to dock the tail, then it should be done.

I'm not at all vane (vain?) when it comes to my dogs, that's for sure, but if I were looking to buy a purebred puppy and knew the tails "should" be docked, I would not buy from a litter w/ undocked tails.

 

[capall beag]

Thanks for the replies!

I knew there would be a variety of responses and each person does what they feel is right!

In defense of my vet, he did a good job but when he was done each pup had four little bloody spots where a dewclaw was moments before! Going in they were perfect, it leaves a raw wound, yes it heals quickly but it is still kind of horrible.

And I must say that yes I had my son circumcised because I believe it to be beneficial and my cousin had to be circumcised as a teenager because of some complication and it was not pleasant!

However, I and my son were traumatised by it! It was horrible and I am still racked with guilt about it and wonder if it was the right decision. It was horrible and hearing him scream in pain was ghastly. If I had another boy I would think long and hard before doing it. But that is just me.

My Dr did a fine job BUT it is VERY painful and it leaves a horrible looking mess initially.

I must say that I did research about the dewclaws and decided it was unnescessary.

Please NOTE I know no one does these procedures to be cruel or unkind. I guess I am just second guessing if it will be necessary. Certainly, I would have been just as happy with my JRT's with their tails.

I am just remembering back, I went through natural labor with all 3 of my kids all in the 9lb plus size and it was very painful

I never felt badly for myself or worried about my pain

Maybe I am overly sensitive with my kids and animals pain

 

[Secret22]

I believe that when people dock tails they are only thinking about themself. It is about winning shows and looking good. Noone thinks about the pain the poor puppies go through. Only about them winning the shows. For once people should think about the animals rather than themselves. It is unnatural, cruel and mean!

 

[Shelley]

I can see both sides of the fence on this one. Personally, I don't like the looks of Dobes, Danes, etc. with natural ears, but not sure I am crazy about the docking practice, either. One reason I have never had a breed that needed to be docked.

I do however, believe in doing dew claws. It really is not a big deal on new puppies if done correctly, and they sure can cause problems if left unattended later in life. I know that some breeds do not permit removal of dewclaws for showing though.

Shelley

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You see I've never taken dew claws off either- i did not breed the two Dobe ******* I have at the moment and, in spite of asking her to leave the dewclaws on, she just forgot (one pup in a litter it's easy to do) so it was all over by the time I next saw them. My other Dobes have all had dew claws, my Corgis (only pics are on "hard copy" I will try to scan them as they have tails NO-ONE would object to!!)

My Shelties I never even considered having dew claws removed. Never a one caught or damaged BUT in every case I was dealing with strong, well attached dewclaws and I always checked them at birth.

I take notice of breed standards as long as they do not encourage conformational or temperamental faults or mutilations.

If there were a fashion for three legged dogs- would you cut off a dogs leg??

After all, they can manage very well on three.

For the record, the UK and many other European Breed Standards are now required to have standards for docked and undocked tails (where the country still allows dogs that are docked to be shown, that is), so my dogs conform totally to the required breed standard.

Poodles have never required a docked tail, as have not a number of "traditionally" docked breeds.

JRT's are not a breed in the UK so it is actually illegal to dock them, it is only the Parson Jack Russel that is a recognised breed and has a "standard and can be shown.

I do not really consider tail docking a cruelty- it would be nonsense to suggest reputable, caring breeders are purposely and regularly cruel to their dogs, although I do have to say that I consider ear cropping evil- if you want a dog with erect ears, breed one, for goodness sake- these are dogs not Bonsai trees!!

I also think there are a lot more important things going on in the world, that have real and deadly importance, that give me cause to pause before involving governments and laws in such basically trivial things.

Fiona- run an ad for undocked pups in your local paper, see how many answers you get.

If it is more than five, and you like the people, take their numbers, breed the dogs and leave the tails on!!!

 

[capall beag]

Or Rabbitfizz, God forbid should they not sell I will have to keep them

Now wouldn't that be terrible

Actually, my last litter of labs, out of a litter of 10, 7 sold to people who knew me well and loved my dog and wanted one like her. I really think most of my jack's would sell likewise.

Definately a good point about the dewclaws, some dewclaws hang off and could easily cause a problem.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No, silly person, put an ad in NOW. If and when the responses start, blame your Husband who put the ad in by mistake for a litter you have not yet bred!!!

If the response is good for undocked pups at a certain price, then the market is there and you can go ahead and breed them. It's what I did with the Corgis as I was told I would NEVER find homes for them. Or the Dobes.

As I said no-one even noticed the Dobes tails as the bitch had a full tail- so did the Corgis come to think of it.

 

[journey]

Personally, I like a docked tail. Not so much for the ear cropping. I like floppy ears! I am a huge beagle person, love the beagles!

I have a friend that has a Dobe and she bought it without the docking or cropping. Ladybug is a cute Dobe, with a long tail and floppy ears. She was bought to be the kids' companion. She just couldn't stand to have it done to the dog, since they bought her at 6 weeks and the owners did not do the docking in time.