Tongue over the bit--riders or drivers

[Marsha Cassada]

When a horse tries to get his tongue over the bit, is this his way of trying to evade the bit?

Is it simply him messing with something in his mouth?

Both/either?

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Both or either honestly.

Try a bit with a roller in the middle, they keep busy bodies busy! Also evaluate your hands, are you over driving? Not enough contact? Too much?

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I started out with the roller. Switched to the straight mullen. I think it works better as it doesn't give his tongue anything to play with. I have watched him since I put on the overcheck and he tries his very hardest to get the tongue over. The overcheck keeps the bit lifted just enough that he can't succeed. He has a short mouth, so the bit doesn't lay far back. Hard to figure out how many "smile wrinkles" to adjust it.

I try to be very conscious of my hands and pressure. I'm sure I'm not 100%, or perfect at it, but I am very conscious of it.

I tried a flash band, but that didn't work for us. The overcheck seems most successful. I am not a fan of overchecks, so hope to leave it off again when he settles down.

Next time I take him out, I will photograph the "wrinkles" and ask for opinions on whether I have it adjusted properly.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

Hm, maybe try something with a small port then? Just to deter the tongue from going that way!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Is he still new to driving?

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Is he still new to driving?

Yes, within the last few months. He did the tongue at first, then stopped and I thought that was the end of it. He has been doing well in the cart. Then two weeks ago we had a very tense drive, due to several factors. Made it home safely, but I decided to go back to ground driving for awhile. Now he has started the tongue-thing again. When he doesn't want to do a maneuver or when I ask him to whoa/stand it seems more pronounced. He is working his tongue like crazy to get it over the bit.

I'm trying to keep his mind busy with cues, transitions, obstacles.

My sister had an Arab that was constantly putting his tongue over/under the bit. She thought it was just quirky. But there is no doubt the driver has less control when the bit is under the tongue; I can feel it through the reins.

 

[Kendra]

Instead of an overcheck, you could try just a piece of string or twine over the noseband. Keeps it lifted up in his mouth in the same direction as an overcheck, without restricting the movement of his head and neck.

 

[paintponylvr]

Hi Marsha!

I haven't had this issue last long w/ any of our driving ponies. HOWEVER, I have with a riding pony. Didn't matter what bit we used (there are many more choices now then there were 10-15 yrs ago that we could afford or that fit the pony), she insisted on putting her tongue over the mouthpiece and then sticking her tongue out - often waving it around... tried dropped noseband, flash noseband, figure 8 noseband & regular cavesson - all tried very tight and correctly adjusted. Didn't matter - she could get her tongue over the bit and seemed to delight in our puzzlement/frustration!

When riding at home, we went to using a nylon/chain curb strap (yes, the western one) and put it on one bit ring, over her nose and attached to the other bit ring. Had to add holes to make it more adjustable. One w/o a chain would have worked too, I think, but we didn't have one at the time. This raised the bit off of her tongue AND she could not get her tongue over it. However, this changes how the bit works - it no longer works as effectively. Also did the "cowboy method" of tying a string to the center of the bit - one side run out of her mouth on each side, brought up over her muzzle and tied in a knot then both strands run straight up her forehead and criss-crossed over the browband and then tied in a bow at the crown. It was similar to the curb strap over the muzzle. Both worked well enough - at least keeping her from putting her tongue over the bit.

We tried the tongue depressor attachment you can get from many english riding stores, but it was too large - she wouldn't/couldn't close her mouth when it was attached to the bit. Acted like she was gagging but even when she shut her mouth it wouldn't close all the way w/ that sitting "in the way".

When she was being shown - we constantly put her tongue back where it belonged. Before a class, we'd check her tongue and then tighten the cavesson. It helped, but didn't prevent her from putting her tongue over the bit - sometimes we undid it again as soon as she came out and then sent her back into the ring for another round (jumping) or for next class (jr classes often ran consecutively). When sold, her new trainer consulted us when she couldn't deal with it - and ended up doing what we did...

As she got older, it DID lesson, while she was being shown (think she got tired of the "game") but if she went more than a week w/o being ridden/lounged in her bridle - the habit came back healthy and hard. The habit never went completely away and even now in her late teens (the last time I spoke w/ trainer), she still does it...

Sorry to be discouraging...

Out of all the horses & ponies we've worked with (maybe not as many as some on this forum), she is the only one that didn't grow out of the habit. However, all of her full sisters (4 of them) started w/ the same habit and it just eased away as they got used to the bit/bridle and work (1 other became a riding pony and 2 became driving ponies - all at large event competition levels. After starting w/ habit, I lost track of the last one). Several of her 1/2 siblings by the same sire also started out with the "problem" and again they "grew out of it"...

Here is Vixen's 1st ride (she'd been ground driven and had several hitching to cart and driving previously). Not sure her tongue is actually over the bit here, but it definitely was previously and we did have to fix it during her short ride. She also sometimes bruised heavily when she put her tongue over the bit. She learned to give to the bit and respond to reins - even when her tongue was over the bit. Sometimes I swear she was more comfortable that way...

Her tongue is over the bit here - and we fixed it...(had already done so several times this day):

This one shows the curb strap over the nose. Sierra is riding, ponying Vixen's 1/2 sister by an arab stallion who did not ever develop the same habit as the 5 1/2 sisters sired by our Shetland stallion.

She's playing with the bit here in the lineup, but I LOVE this pic!

The habit didn't stop her jumping ability!

Sierra and Vixen were dubbed the "flying fleas" at this show series for a long time! Vixen was 46" tall and this jump is 2'9" (33")...

 

[Marsha Cassada]

What a funny story! I am wondering if she had a short mouth?

 

[paintponylvr]

Hmmm... in comparison to a "true" mini - no. However, overall, I've found most of our Shetlands to have a shallower/shorter mouth then some others I've seen at different farms and at the handful of ASPC/AMHR shows I've attended. Vixen's tongue was long and attached "looser" than most. She could dangle it out of her mouth like a dog almost and she seemed to enjoy it the most when she was bitted. She did learn to keep it in her mouth when I approached her head - I'd pull it! LOL. Not too hard - no damage wanted, but enough to purposely irritate her. it worked - she "put it away"... Always had plenty of tongue to hold onto when doing teeth floats with her!

I've only seen one other horse (personally) that would trot around with his tongue dangling out of his mouth. He also had a "looser" attachment just like Vixen - but it was all much larger since he was a 16 hh QH/warmblood X. Both he and Vixen seemed to favor dangling their tongues out to the right side.

 

[amysue]

Have you tried tying his tongue? I know it is extreme, and not legal at shows, but it will stop him from doing this. My trainer as a kid had a saddlebred who would get his tongue over and between the bits and this worked to stop it. You really do not tie the string around the tongue, you wrap the string around the bottom of the mouth on top of the tongue to hold it down. It is extreme but it works. It may teach him not to do it so you do not have to tie it.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I've heard of that from more than one person, Amysue.

I did learn that it is better for the headstall to be a little tighter, rather than looser, and not to let the short mouth determine where the bit is (smile wrinkles) but where it lays in the mouth.

Thanks for everyone's responses and experiences.

 

[amysue]

Yes, the smile wrinkles are only a guided suggestion for sizing. I have learned the hard way that three wrinkles does not always set the bar where it needs to be. My British shetland has big lips, so she has more wrinkles in her lip than normal, otherwise the bit smacks her in the back of her teeth and she cannot close her mouth.

 

[stormy]

I would recommend a full dental work-up to see if he is responding to pain somewhere in his mouth....had one that used to do a lot of tongue play and found her wolf teeth had never been removed and were actually hooked on the end...

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I would recommend a full dental work-up to see if he is responding to pain somewhere in his mouth....had one that used to do a lot of tongue play and found her wolf teeth had never been removed and were actually hooked on the end...

I'm a convinced equine dentist client!! He has his teeth looked at regularly. I have an appt with the chiro next week also. We had a little "adventure" a few weeks ago, and he could be out of whack from that. The tongue-thing started up again after that episode. It could be the whole problem and the chiro can address it.

 

[amysue]

Some horses are very expressive/ responsive through their mouth. When grooming or scratching, some lick and chew and play with their tongue and this means they are relaxed and it feels good, akin to a dog waving his leg when his belly is scratched. Some also relieve anxiety by mouthing, he could be playing with his tongue when anxious or nervous. If your sure it is not him avoiding mouth pain, it could be a psychological thing. Does your bit have a bean or french link in it? I have a few ponies who must be worked in a linked bit because single joint bits bang the top of their mouths. Even though they are the correct size/length at the bar, they just do not join at the correct point. I hope you can figure it out.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Started him with copper french link. Changed to mullen and it seems better. It is inreresting all the things horse folk devise for this annoying behavior.

 

[amysue]

I guess it is trial and error at this point. Maybe something with a port would deter him. Just for kicks, you could try wrapping the bar in sealtex latex bandage to add some bulk/texture to it. I wrap all of my curb bits in it to add cushion and bite. Maybe see if someone close buy could lend you bits to try, since buying them to try gets pricey. Good luck.

 

[chandab]

Perhaps something with even more tongue relief than a mullen mouth, just not sure what.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

The overcheck appears to be working. I noticed after three or four sessions that he has quieted the tongue quite a bit. I checked the length of the headstall, and really don't feel I should shorten it any. I'll try to remember to ask the chiro next week about it; she is a professional barrel racer and should be able to advise me on the adjustment of the headstall and set of the bit.