True Arabian blood in minis???

[Minimor]

Well, I'd never say never. After all, the POA's originated from crossing full size appaloosas with shetland ponies. As I recall POA's are supposed to be within a certain size range--not too small & not too tall (and don't ask me what the minimum height is, I've never paid much attention).

Regardless of minimum size requirements, there are POA's--papered POA's--that would qualify as Miniatures. We had friends in North Dakota that raised POA's, not for show but just for fun, and they did raise some very small ones. Somewhere I have a photo of one of their last teams--even one of me driving that team--and those ponies weren't more than 35" and 36". Undersize for POA's but they were full POA, which means that they were actually descended from full size appaloosas. I have no idea how many generations you'd have had to go back on their papers to find the full size appaloosas, but it doesn't matter--what matters is that there is full size horse in the ancestry of those Mini sized POAs.

Likewise, it's entirely possibly that there is actually Arabian in the background of some Minis. Do I believe you could use only purebred Arabians and get them bred down to under 38" size? No, but I do believe it's quite possible to have Arabian crosses back in the Minis pedigree. As I heard it, the lady that Joe Jandt got his Arabian line from had been working on that "bred down Arabian line" of hers for 50 years prior to turning it over to Joe.

 

[Lewella]

Nightflight, in a "PURE" American Shetland you should find just that, pure shetland blood. But for the hanky panky that went on, I think you could find Welsh, Hackney, and God only knows what else.

Small Hackney and small Section A Welsh were pretty much it. A lot of it was done behind the barn so it does not show on papers (photos of individuals from the boom era will usually tip you off as to who was really a crossbred!). The ideal back in the boom ear of Shetlands was an individual that was 1/2 Shetland, 1/4 Welsh, and 1/4 Hackney.

When the ASPC was open (which was only for about 20 years) the acceptable outcrosses were Welsh, Hackney, Americana (a defunct Shetland/Hackney crossbred registery) and Harness Show Pony (the ASPC's original Shetland/Hackney crossbred registry).

There is no doubt that minis have been influenced by other breeds - all you have to do is look at the colors that occur in minis that do not exist in Shetlands to know that. American Shetlands do not come in Appaloosa or Champagne!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, we KNOW that UK Shetlands and Spotted Ponies were brought in by the boatload, and were used in the foundations of the AM Mini.

Not at all sure where Champagne came from- it should be fairly easy to trace unless it came in "through the back door"

I am surprised no-one took the chance to introduce spots at the same time they slipped Frame into the Am Shetland!!!

I see no shame in any of this- we ALL know this sort of thing happened "back in the day"- it is one of the reasons DNA certifying was introduced as soon as it was available- I just am so sorry you missed the boat as it were, with the name.

Here was a chance to claim, rightly and justly so, as you very own, and animal that is uniquely (unlike the Mini) American!!

There is no animal like the American "shetland" anywhere in the world, but it is NOT a Shetland!!!

For a start it has not one characteristic and has as much Welsh and Hackney (mainly, by looks, Hackney) in it as Shetland so Why, I have to ask again!!

 

[xxs]

Well....you know that Fort Storey breeds miniature Harnessbreds? They have some that are the great-grands of Standardbreds..so why not Arabians?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

What would be the point??

I have a suspicion that the HB are where the Champagne came from???

So, that would be the point of breeding small HB's to Minis- the result is not a mini HB but a Mini with some HB attributes and the colour.

But, with Arabs, if it does not look like an Arab there is little to be gained- no unique colour, nothing really to say "This has Arab blood" in fact.

So what would be the point??

I know from experience all looks are lost in two generations and that the "dishy" Arab look in Minis comes from Welsh and a few Shetlands (UK) lines, so why would there need to be Arab??

No, I think this is pure hype- and I do not think it is innocent hype either- it is all part of the "Minis are unique" spiel, when in fact, Minis are unique- no need to make up rubbish stories about royalty in Europe etc - and Arab blood, they are unique because there is nothing else quite like them, that is enough for me.

 

[user 488]

I think some of you are missing the point here. Nobody has said that the Miniature breed could not have been infused with Arabian blood at one time or another.

If you look back at the original post the OP was referring to the fact that a seller said that because the horse had Arabian Blood it would make a good herd sire.

She said she was told this was the rarest of minis since it had true Arabian blood in it and therefore was a super herd sire prospect.

Arabians have been crossed with many breeds........

The point is that the blood would be too diluted to make a difference and it certainly would NOT make it a RARE MINI! That statement is totally absurd and just some sellers way of taking total advantage of some unsuspecting buyer making them think they have something special.

And again, I am sure there are minis out there with some percentage of Arabian blood. Just not enough to make a difference.

 

[Lewella]

I am surprised no-one took the chance to introduce spots at the same time they slipped Frame into the Am Shetland!!!

Simple answer to that question - Appaloosa type spotting has been prohibited from registration from day 1 of the ASPC. Pinto patterns were not prohibited so it wasn't all that difficult for fame to be slipped in (which only happened about 30 years ago).

There is no animal like the American "shetland" anywhere in the world, but it is NOT a Shetland!!!

You can say this all you want but the ASPC predates the SPSBS and has just as much right to use the term Shetland as the SPSBS does.

I have a suspicion that the HB are where the Champagne came from???

Only one of the several Champagne lines in Miniatures came though Harnessbreds (by way of Trottingbreds) and that line entered the AMHR through Arlyn Storey's Harnessbred breeding program. The source of one line is Del Tera's Hippy and I'd have to go look to see where the other lines have been traced to.

 

[Leeana]

QUOTEThere is no animal like the American "shetland" anywhere in the world, but it is NOT a Shetland!!!

Lewella Today, 07:58 PM

You can say this all you want but the ASPC predates the SPSBS and has just as much right to use the term Shetland as the SPSBS does.

Exactly .....

 

[xxs]

I guess I should have elaborated a little...what I meant was that Standardbreds were only 2-3 generations back in Harnessbreds..and you can see the Standardbred in them. That isn't that far back ,so I don't think it would take as many generations to get smaller animals as some think.

One school of thought is that horses were VERY small to begin with. Then gradually became larger through selective breeding for work and war mounts.

As someone already said, Arabians were small..not the 16H we see today. Raffles was the "P" word....shhhhhh...I didn't say that...LOL!!

The point of breeding minis to Standardbreds is not for color or looks...it is for racing!

 

[Danielle_E.]

I think some of you are missing the point here. Nobody has said that the Miniature breed could not have been infused with Arabian blood at one time or another.

If you look back at the original post the OP was referring to the fact that a seller said that because the horse had Arabian Blood it would make a good herd sire.

She said she was told this was the rarest of minis since it had true Arabian blood in it and therefore was a super herd sire prospect.

Arabians have been crossed with many breeds........

The point is that the blood would be too diluted to make a difference and it certainly would NOT make it a RARE MINI! That statement is totally absurd and just some sellers way of taking total advantage of some unsuspecting buyer making them think they have something special.

And again, I am sure there are minis out there with some percentage of Arabian blood. Just not enough to make a difference.

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

I know someone that has a 1/2 arab and a few 1/4 arabs from that line--big Bs, but still.... She will not advertise as such...in fact I have never seen her advertise at all. She holds on to those horses. I do think they look "araby" but certainly not like full arabs by any means or stretch of the imagintion. That doesn't mean the blood isn't there though. I don't agree with using something like bloodlines of any type to mean it is a quality animal to be reproducing. That said, if I have learned one thing in my life with horses it is to never uses the phrases NEVER or ALWAYS.

 

[JennyB]

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]

I think this is a very interesting topic!

I know and have seen Sundance LB Stock Farm's half and quarter Arabian miniatures and they are very pretty and well conformed. I would not have believed it, but after I saw what they had been doing, it DOES work!

Also true Shetland's from the islands had Arabian blood, Icelandic and Highland pony bloodlines added into them at one time. The silver dapple gene comes from either the Icelandic or Highland ponies. Also Hackney and Welsh ponies were added to the "American" Shetland pony here in the states and there are MANY of them who are double registered ASPC/AMHR...so breeding down in size is easier done I feel...

Also the mare decides the size of the foal in almost all cases. I had friends who bred their ASPC 40" reg. mare to a Belgium Draft horse via AI...both times they got colts, but those colts were only about 13.3 hands tall and much smaller in bone. I believe there was also a scientific experiement where a Draft mare was bred to a Shetland pony, having a much larger foal and a Shetland pony to the Draft stallion, having a much smaller foal...

JMO,

Jenny

 

[CyndiM]

Thinking about all of this has me wondering where the flea bit grey color comes from? Is it only indicative of Arabians? And if so has anyone ever seen a mini flea bit grey colored?

 

[Lewella]

Thinking about all of this has me wondering where the flea bit grey color comes from? Is it only indicative of Arabians? And if so has anyone ever seen a mini flea bit grey colored?

Flea bit is just a stage/phase of the graying process and can/does happen in all breeds where the gray gene is present. Yes, there are flea bitten gray miniatures.

 

[Heart L Ranch]

This is one example of the Sundance LB documented Arabian blood that Jenny Shea talked about in her post. Crossed into their appy line and I think you can see the refinement it has added. Sundance LB Connect The Dots is only 1/8 Arabian, her granddam is 38" and is 1/2 Arabian.

Also wanted to add that as a comming two year old, she measures 32 1/2"

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Pretty horse but no evidence of Arabian blood- I have seen American Shetlands with as much refinement.

I am not disbelieving the story- I would love sometime to see the paperwork, but I accept your word(s) on this- I just see no point to the whole thing- it adds nothing except size, IMO.

BTW, and FYI the UK Shetland has NEVER been crossed in living memory with anything- they share a common ancestor with the Icelandic and have similar behaviours but the Arab thing is pure myth.

The Highland may be related but the other way round- large Shetlands used on small Highlands , not vice versa- | a pony the size of a Highland (13,2hh up) would be no use to the Islanders.

Native Shetlands have always been around 40-46" and under- there was one of the Islands that bred larger ponies but they were never brought into the Studbook.

Arab blood would be pointless and useless, so was never even considered.

 

[mininik]

I have to say, that is one beautiful appy. As far as not seeing any Arabian influence in her, I would think pictures of this horse's sire, grandsire, dam, granddam and siblings would be needed to truly determine that. Just because this horse looks similar to some American Shetlands does not mean that is where her type originated. Please know that I am NOT doubting her lineage, rather I am replying to Jane's comment that she can see "no evidence of Arabian blood" in this pony.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Very pretty filly but I like others would like to see the full pedigree to see what other breeds might have been used or if this was strictly arabian blood (grandam) I have seen similiar body types without using arabian blood so I don't think it is a marked influence in the conformation "look". I also would like to see a mature miniature that has been crossed with arabian blood. I find that minis change so much in their look from young ones to mature ones, 5 years and up.

 

[Katiean]

At a barn we were at they had a small pony (grade) mare. They would turn her out to run the barn area. There was an Arab Stud (1 1/2 years old) that got out. This was just before he was gelded. Well he...um... you know what he did. He was 14.2H at maturity. The mare was around 38". When the foal was born it was almost as big as mom. But, it was very cute.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Amira was 14.2hh, Fred was 33"

Oliver was 12.2hh

Rabbit is 28 " Topaz is 12.2hh

Saffy was 11.3hh

Rabbit is 28" Opal is 12.2hh

Sable is 11.00hh

Sables foal by Rabbit (Yes, I know!!) ended up 40"(10hh)

Those are just a few I can remember off the top of my head.

The mare does not govern the foals size- the report on draught mares X Shetlands is over 100 years old!!

And the Shetlands were standard UK Shetlands.