True Arabian blood in minis???

[mininik]

So since it didn't work for you, Jane, it obviously won't work for anyone else, or what are *you trying to get at?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm sorry, where did that come from??

I was simply sharing first hand experience. OH!

 

[mininik]

I know from experience all looks are lost in two generations and that the "dishy" Arab look in Minis comes from Welsh and a few Shetlands (UK) lines, so why would there need to be Arab??

First hand experience is great, but sharing yours seems to strongly imply that there is no other possible outcome than what you have seen.

 

[HGFarm]

In response to the POA's being very tiny and registered, they should not be Mini size. The MINIMUM height requirement is 46 inches- with the maximum being 56". 44" were the smallest they were ever allowed to be and that rule changed decades ago.

Here's a link to the article I was sent by someone showing pics of some of the Falabellas, including Pegasus, sire of Menelek, running in the pasture with some of the larger Appaloosas he was bred from.

By the way Heart L, I'll take that filly off their hands!!!

http://www.falabellasofflorida.bravehost.com/unique.html

 

[Minimor]

Laurie, yes, I know they shouldn't be registered as POA if they are 35", (I know there's a minimum height set for POAs, though I didn't recall what it was) but the fact is, some are...or were--I'd imagine there have been and will be other undersize ones with registration papers. The ponies I referred to earlier were actual POAs.

It's no different than AMHA having a height limit of 34" or AMHR having a 38" height limit--there are still 35" AMHA horses and 39" AMHR horses with papers!

 

[ClickMini]

Lori, I sure do love that Connect the Dots. She is amazing. Her granddam is the one that I referred to on page 1. That mare is so lovely.

I am pretty sure that Connect the Dots has quite a lot of Shetland blood also.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Amira was 14.2hh, Fred was 33"

Oliver was 12.2hh

Rabbit is 28 " Topaz is 12.2hh

Saffy was 11.3hh

Rabbit is 28" Opal is 12.2hh

Sable is 11.00hh

Sables foal by Rabbit (Yes, I know!!) ended up 40"(10hh)

Those are just a few I can remember off the top of my head.

The mare does not govern the foals size- the report on draught mares X Shetlands is over 100 years old!!

And the Shetlands were standard UK Shetlands.

That is my ENTIRE post- where do you get the rest from??

 

[mininik]

Earlier in the discussion, Jane...

 

[Danielle_E.]

Jane, I understood what you were saying and thanks for the first hand experience you have had. I could do the same here if I had an inkling to do so, use my straight egyptian mare and breed her to one of my studs but I am still of the opinion that the dilution of the arabian blood by the time you would get the size down, after subsequent generations would be minimal.

As I said the pictured filly is very pretty but I have seen great conformation and that refined look in other minis that don't have "arabian blood" in their pedigree. Many have shetland in their pedigrees and give that more refined silhouette, head and body and for me personally I don't form an absolute opinion on a mini until they are of mature weigh as things change so much as they grown but I am in agreement that the pictured filly is very pretty!

Someone mentioned that this filly has shetland as well in her pedigree? Is it more recent than the arabian blood used? If so I would love to see a mini that arabian blood had been used and then only non shetland aspc used after to see their pictures. Anyone know of any?

This is a very interesting thread

 

[Heart L Ranch]

Connect The Dots is sired by Brewers Supreme Superstar and is not shetland bred however Dot does have Shetland blood on her Dams side. Dots Granddam (1/2 Arabian) was bred to Flabys Captian Topper (100% Arenosa double registered ASPC/AMHR) to produce Dots dam.

 

[JennyB]

This is one example of the Sundance LB documented Arabian blood that Jenny Shea talked about in her post. Crossed into their appy line and I think you can see the refinement it has added. Sundance LB Connect The Dots is only 1/8 Arabian, her granddam is 38" and is 1/2 Arabian.

Also wanted to add that as a comming two year old, she measures 32 1/2"

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]

Beautiful Lori...she is a fine little filly and true 1/4 Arabian!

Here is her half sister -don't remember her name and she never saw 34" and is 1/4 Arabian...I "can't" see a better head!

Arab blood would be pointless and useless, so was never even considered

Although here is a quote right from the ASPC stud book volume 16 which would agree with you, but not the Arabian part as they did use them...

"All ponies on the Shetland Islands are not what the Shetlander would call "right Shetlands." They brought larger ponies from the highlands of Scotland and crossed with the little Shetland mares, in order to increase the size so they could carry more peat at a load. As a rule, they are 40" to 43" high, and some as small as 36" to 38" tall(In the first ASPC stud book there where MANY imported from Scotland who were around the 30" height), the smaller the better, which islanders were slow in finding out. As long as you get them straight in the legs and round in the body, they cannot be too small. It is a well known fact on a part of the island of Fetlar, Lady Nicholson, a titled Lady of Scotland, for years crossed small Arabian stallions on Shetland mares, the produce being a pony 46" to 48" high, and some of which are extremely refined. These are known to the trade as Fetlar or Lady Nicholson ponies. Iceland ponies have also been put on the island of Bressay, on which Shetland stallions have been crossed. So that fact alone, a pony coming from the Shetland islands, does not prove him to be pure Shetland." This was copywrited at 1924, but probably written before then.

Bringing in the Iceland ponies would explain where the silver dapple color comes from. More interestings: The first ASPC stud book; 72 ponies were 38" and under-many under 34", majority 39" to 42", some up to 46", but some didn't say a height so don't know if any were over 48" tall. Colors they used, Mouse, orange, grizzly, blue, clay roan, walnut, drab, moose, fawn...one was a sorrel with a blue mane & tail. Many had heavy double mane?? Not sure,but maybe that was mane parting in the middle and laying on both sides?? Gosh what I wouldn't have given to see these ponies

Jenny

 

[rabbitsfizz]

"All ponies on the Shetland Islands are not what the Shetlander would call "right Shetlands." They brought larger ponies from the highlands of Scotland and crossed with the little Shetland mares, in order to increase the size so they could carry more peat at a load. As a rule, they are 40" to 43" high, and some as small as 36" to 38" tall(In the first ASPC stud book there where MANY imported from Scotland who were around the 30" height), the smaller the better, which islanders were slow in finding out. As long as you get them straight in the legs and round in the body, they cannot be too small. It is a well known fact on a part of the island of Fetlar, Lady Nicholson, a titled Lady of Scotland, for years crossed small Arabian stallions on Shetland mares, the produce being a pony 46" to 48" high, and some of which are extremely refined. These are known to the trade as Fetlar or Lady Nicholson ponies. Iceland ponies have also been put on the island of Bressay, on which Shetland stallions have been crossed. So that fact alone, a pony coming from the Shetland islands, does not prove him to be pure Shetland." This was copyrighted at 1924, but probably written before then.

Not written by the SPSBS not written by anyone for Shetland, NOT correct.

Sorry to be so dogmatic but this particular myth was debunked some time ago - more than a year- by someone actually born and bred and still living on Shetland.

Scotland's is a LONG way from Shetland, for those that do not know, Shetland is actually nearer to Iceland (which shows in the accent) than it is to the mainland.

No, an Arab would not last a year up there, much as I love them, it is a well known fact that thsi did not happen, as did not the Highland crossings, either.

Now, show me a Shetland Islander who remembers this happening (they have long memories) and I might reconsider .

Fetlar Ponies were bigger , that is no secret, but they did not need any in cross of blood to get that way.

I have stud books from 1901/2 that show very light boned ponies indeed- no Arab blood- these ponies had full pedigrees.

It is true the ASPC set up it's Club a couple of years before the foundation of the SPSBS but I can assure you the Islanders knew their ponies pedigrees long before that.

 

[Miniequine]

Thinking about all of this has me wondering where the flea bit grey color comes from? Is it only indicative of Arabians? And if so has anyone ever seen a mini flea bit grey colored?

This is my EK bred mini mare. 32", 4 years old "Taylor"

She is currently all flea bit up! hahaha

 

[ruffian]

"Ruffian,

You have me very confused. Its fine to allow outcrossing to arabian but you are agianst shetland influence?"

Leeana - my point was that in past history, Arabian blood could have been used to refine ponies to make the mini. I am against Registered Shetlands being double registered as miniatures and being bred to registered miniatures and showing against them. IMO they are a different style and temperment. That's all.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Connect The Dots is sired by Brewers Supreme Superstar and is not shetland bred however Dot does have Shetland blood on her Dams side. Dots Granddam (1/2 Arabian) was bred to Flabys Captian Topper (100% Arenosa double registered ASPC/AMHR) to produce Dots dam.

Thank you for the information on the pedigree. So Dot's dam is part shetland and part arabian so hence she is the 1/4 arabian? I am confused by a poster here stating the little filly is the 1/4 arabian. I would love to see a picture, if anyone has one, of the dam. Again thank you, I find this topic very fascinating

 

[Danielle_E.]

All horse breeds are descedant of the arabian horse, hence the reason you have grey in many different breeds.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

In response to the POA's being very tiny and registered, they should not be Mini size. The MINIMUM height requirement is 46 inches- with the maximum being 56". 44" were the smallest they were ever allowed to be and that rule changed decades ago.

Here's a link to the article I was sent by someone showing pics of some of the Falabellas, including Pegasus, sire of Menelek, running in the pasture with some of the larger Appaloosas he was bred from.

By the way Heart L, I'll take that filly off their hands!!!

http://www.falabellasofflorida.bravehost.com/unique.html

Actuallly Menalek sired Pegasus

There is a lot of mis information on Falabellas on the web. I've been a Falabella Historian for a long time and have documentation from the ESt. Falabella as to true facts. An exerpt from one article I wrote on origins-

<<Pedro Mendoza established the first horses, mainly Andolusian lines to South America in 1536. Many ran wild creating food and transportation for local Indians. Indians and settlers alike tended to take for their use the larger horses leaving the smaller horses to propagate. This continued for many generations and was the foundation of many of the South American breeds including the Criollo, which played a part in the development of the Falabella. Eventually horse-trading became profitable and a trader living in the Buenos Aires territory in 1845, Patrick Newtall, noticed a particular group of small horses in the wild horse herds. He obtained this group of small horses and started a selectively breeding them. Later infusions of Criollo and European Thoroughbred had also been introduced to the bloodline. Patrick Newtall and his son in law Mr. Juan Falabella joined to share knowledge to continue to improve the new evolving breed. The blood of Pur Sangs, Shetland (Dutch, English or Belgian type) were used and minis were being produced at less than 30 inches in height. Emilio and then Julio Cesar Falabella took on the responsibilities and records for the established breed called FALABELLA Miniature Horse.

Since the death of Julio Cesar Falabella his wife, Maria Louisa de Falabella has continued on at the Est. Falabella with the running and recording of the now famous miniature horses. Julio Cesar Falabella's daughter, Maria Angelica Falabella also continues to breed the Falabella miniature horses. Maria Angelica resides in the United States with a small group on her US farm of pure Falabella's and has a remaining herd in Argentina. The Est. Falabella handles the horse operations much as we do in the United states with the exception that they have yearly "inspections" of the young stock to establish which horses meet their breed standard and those not meeting it are sold. Once a Falabella has passed it's three-year-old year and meets all the requirements of inspection they are branded identifying them as approved breeding stock (they do not show their horses). The horses are divided on ten-acre parcels in-groups of mares with one stallion each. They remain outside without a barn or shelter year round. They are checked for health periodically and foaling season is kept busy recording the year's foals. The farm totals 600 individuals at last record. Only the existing genetic pool is used. Outside bloodlines are no longer used.

>>

The photo showing Menelek with the big apps is real but was taken after he left Est. Falabella. He was not bred down from big apps but has the same lineage as the other Falabellas. The appy spotting came from both spanish origins dating way back and possibly some local mountain ponies in Argentina that are leopard spotted.

Tammie