WHAT ARE THE DIRECTORS DOING TO AMHA??!!

[Minimor]

To me this rule isn't saying it is all right for a horse to be 1/4" over...after all, the horse is going to lose all its show awards if it is protested and measures 1/4" over the height limit for its division. The horse is getting to keep it's awards for classes that it fits into, even with it's "extra" 1/4 inch...if the horse is 32 1/4" it will lose its awards for the 32" and under class, but can keep its awards for the 34" and under obstacle or jumping class...as it should since it is still under 34".

I guess my question to you is...what do you call an accurate measurement? The measurement you get when the horse is standing quiet & relaxed, in a non-stress environment, or is it the measurement you get when the horse is tense and up on his toes in a high stress situation, such as a protest measurement? For myself I say the real measurement is the former. I have one mare that measures--with me measuring her at home--at 34". If I take her to a show she will most probably measure smaller than that by a half inch or so (just because I always seem to measure them taller than what the stewards get at the shows) but if she were to get protested I really can't say that I'd be 100% sure that she wouldn't measure a slight bit over the 34"--because yes, I'd be a little tense myself about then and she might just pick up on that. Add to that, my horses aren't generally used to having strangers around--I can walk them up & have them measured normally at a show & they're okay with that, but if it were to be a protest measure with people getting in that much closer they would almost certainly get a little anxious & would probably swell up with tension. Because my mare might measure 1/4" over 34" one time out of 10 or maybe one time out of 15....does that mean that her true size is 34 1/4"??? I really don't think so.

Let me say that I am totally opposed to having some of the overly tall horses being shown. I think it's appalling that there are so many people cheating by measuring horses into classes that have height limits 1 or 2 inches lower than the horse's true size. If a horse measures even 1/2" over the height limit then I don't believe he should be allowed to show in that division. BUT, if a horse measures into a division--I mean HONESTLY measures into the division, with no stretching, pushing down on his back, standing him spraddle legged, drugging him...--and then on a protest measurement that horse measures 1/4" over the height limit, I don't believe that horse should lose his papers when that protest measurement puts him at 34 1/4". Chances are when you take that horse back to the barn & he relaxes he is going to measure in again at 34" or less. In my books that makes him a 34" horse.

 

[pinck43]

If someone is showing a 35" horse and is getting beaten by a 36" horse, who's fault is that?(They shouldn't be in a 34" in class to begin with). It's the exhibitor's responsiblity for knowing the heighths of their horses and the stewart is responsible for correctly measuring. Like I said before, maybe someone needs to hold the stewarts responsible for their measurements. I have seem alot of tall horses in classes they shouldn't be in. I also have seen people get their horses measured before certain shows that have strict stewarts so they don't get measured over. This issue is a hard one to solve because of the technique of measuring. Be patient. dionne

 

[Cathy_H]

Go to the World and get protested by someone............ and get called for a protest, if you do, you won't complain about AMHA giving 1/4 of a lousy inch to ease the tension that gets your horse too big!!!!! ........................ Just humor all of us who have been on the spot, and if you have never had to sweat your way thru a protest measure, don't push to change things, AMHA is doing all they can to support the members who are out there showing, let them help.

OK would the best solution to this then have MORE assigned people witness the FIRST measuring in at the show. As in let two people measure the horse & two more assigned people witness the measuring. If the two people measuring do not get the same height split the difference or let the third assigned person measure then split the difference...................... Yes it will cost more money to have more people at the original measuring but having two people measure would get a MORE accurate height than one person thus cutting down on the number of protested horses thus saving time & money........ I feel that IF the exhibitors know this process is in place & FOLLOWED through with then they will TRUST the measuring process more & go with the determined height................... From all that I have read it IS BEST to determine the horses true height at the FIRST measuring so that is where the changes in the process should be made....(for the record we have shown AMHA from 1986 until about 2002)........... This suggestion is mainly for the regionals, world show etc. Those people getting innacurate measurements at local shows will have to eventually come clean if they go to the BIG shows. Perhaps the local shows could have a minimum of two people measuring???

 

[minimomNC]

IMO the best solution is make everyone stand their horses up properly the first time around. Don't mash down on a horse to get a smaller height and get someone with a backbone and morals to stand up to the measurments they take. Its time to stop letting the person holding the horse manipulate the stick. If they are measured correctly the first time, then there is no need for a protest.

I just saw a horse show that looked big to me for its class. But since I had never seen the horse, I wasn't sure how tall it really was. Another spectator (had no horses there either) told me she watched this horse measured and that the person holding the horse AND the person measuring were pushing down on the stick to get a certain height. So when I got home, I called a friend that knew this horse, who was not at this show, didn't know this horse was even showing much less what class and asked them how tall the horse was. I was told a height of almost 2 inches taller than the class it was shown in. This is happening every where, in every registry. Its not AMHA only nor is it AMHR only, its both. It doesn't matter what changes are made to what rules, unless the person at the show holding the stick is going to measure honest, then nothing anyone else does matters.

For those of you that think we want changes to measuring so we can get tall horses in, thats not even close to true. Most of us on the board don't have the clout to get our horses measured smaller than they truly are, we sweat out measuring because we know we have to do it by the rules. I measure at home almost on a daily basis coming up to a show, I need to know that there is no room for doubt, and if I have a horse that is close, you can bet I am going to be sweating it out when that person at the show is putting a stick on my horse. And unless my horse is protested, that 1/4" won't help me a bit.

 

[LisaF.]

minimom - then I guess I am just too honest. Because I can't even imagine trying to sell a horse that measures 37" with it's AMHA papers.

I think CathyH has a great idea and maybe even add a camera at the first measuring.

I think if we start allowing 34.1/4" and I don't care if it is ONLY for a horse that has been protested. What will we be doing next year allowing 34 1/2" for protest?

How many people do you really think will not keep their horses AMHA papers thinking - well if it is OK at a show to measure OVER 34" why turn my papers in because MY horse only measures a little over 34"?

I see this as a meltdown of the "AMHA standard of perfection"

I still don't understand why the rules cannot be followed...wouldn't that make things so much easier?

Here is another question I would like to see answered - How many years has AMHA shows been going on? Why now within the last year is AMHA trying so hard to let the larger horses in? Trying to change where we measure our horses? I have not seen an answer to that anywhere and I would love too.

The ' AMHA Standard of Perfection" was good enough for years - where did all of this change start ? and why?

 

[Minimor]

How many people do you really think will not keep their horses AMHA papers thinking - well if it is OK at a show to measure OVER 34" why turn my papers in because MY horse only measures a little over 34"?

As I see it this 1/4" protest rule will make absolutely no difference at all. Do you know how many people already keep their AMHA papers on horses that are a little over? They've been doing it long before this 1/4" rule came in and they'd be doing it tomorrow and next year even if the 1/4" rule wasn't implemented.
You should focus your energy on getting horses measured properly the first time around. If people had faith in the measuring system as it now stands there wouldn't be much for protesting because people would trust that the horses were all measured accurately prior to going into the ring. Minimom got it exactly right in her last post.

Mary Lou, I'd point out that any horse that measures 34.25 in a protest will surely lose all awards from that show, because every class has a top limit of 34". A 32 1/4" horse gets to keep any awards won in the 34" & under class, but a horse that measures 34.25 loses all awards...it just gets to keep its registration papers.

 

[Genie]

If to be a true AMHA registered horse it must measure no more than 34 inches, then "so be it".

Playing around with one of the foundations on which the AMHA is set is not acceptable, in my opinion.

I have turned in AMHA papers on one of my horses who has gone over and may yet have to, on another.

I did not like having to do so but the horse was "over" , and in my opinion "that is that."

If my horse is measured and is over the prescribed measurement for the class then the horse does not belong in the class.

If people who wish to show at shows which require their horse to be a certain height, then be prepared to be excluded from the show if your horse "grows" while being measured, for whatever reason.

People who wish to show should be prepared to follow the rules and if for some reason their horse is disqualified they should be capable of understanding that "rules are rules".

People who show their horses at the highest levels would be the first people that I would have expected to protest the fact that horses will be given "leeway" when so much is at stake for those people who want an honest judging of their animal in every aspect of the class.

 

[Cathy_H]

IMO the best solution is make everyone stand their horses up properly the first time around. Don't mash down on a horse to get a smaller height and get someone with a backbone and morals to stand up to the measurments they take. Its time to stop letting the person holding the horse manipulate the stick. If they are measured correctly the first time, then there is no need for a protest.

........... I took this for granted when I made my above suggestion - that the four assigned people witnessing the measuring WOULD see that this is not done AND the horse is posed as required.

If they are measured correctly the first time, then there is no need for a protest.

That is what I stated above - Measure right the FIRST time & there will be fewer protests......... If the rules are followed & done correctly the first time & the exhibitors feel there is NO favortism toward certain exhibitors, in time they may trust that the AMHA officials ARE trustworthy in this matter and go with their decision................................... Given the history of several events that have caused members to distrust AMHA, they have to earn this trust again and it can start with this measuring fiasco!................................

Below is my statement posted above

...........

OK would the best solution to this then have MORE assigned people witness the FIRST measuring in at the show. As in let two people measure the horse & two more assigned people witness the measuring. If the two people measuring do not get the same height split the difference or let the third assigned person measure then split the difference...................... Yes it will cost more money to have more people at the original measuring but having two people measure would get a MORE accurate height than one person thus cutting down on the number of protested horses thus saving time & money........ I feel that IF the exhibitors know this process is in place & FOLLOWED through with then they will TRUST the measuring process more & go with the determined height................... From all that I have read it IS BEST to determine the horses true height at the FIRST measuring so that is where the changes in the process should be made....(for the record we have shown AMHA from 1986 until about 2002)........... This suggestion is mainly for the regionals, world show etc. Those people getting innacurate measurements at local shows will have to eventually come clean if they go to the BIG shows. Perhaps the local shows could have a minimum of two people measuring???

 

[tagalong]

Here is another question I would like to see answered - How many years has AMHA shows been going on? Why now within the last year is AMHA trying so hard to let the larger horses in? Trying to change where we measure our horses? I have not seen an answer to that anywhere and I would love too.

I do not see AMHA "trying so hard" (as you maintain) to get the larger horses in. This thread was about allowing a meager 1/4" in the stressful protest situation that many have complained about over the years - so no, this is not just a new thing pulled out of the hat as some would have you believe. Prior to that the horse should have been measured in to fit that standard you declare is melting down. Have one hovering over 34"? As one exhibitor told me last year at an AMHR show - she showed her horse R Under because she knew he would measure in there as opposed to A. Go figure.

As many of us have explained - the ruling posted above notes that that 1/4" extra will cost a horse all awards etc. for a designated height division if the protest is valid. And as there is no 1/4" allowance designated for the initial measuring - there is no sneaky attempt here to "let larger horses in".

Lisa - we do need to change where we measure our horses. Both registries need to measure from the top of the withers as is done in all other breeds. Will that happen? Not likely - but IMO that is a far more important issue to focus on than this 1/4" protest thing.

Try the experiment that I suggested to McBunz - measuring your horses in a strange location with strangers hovering over them - and see what you get. You'll be lucky if there is only a 1/4" variation in all the measurements taken.

You should focus your energy on getting horses measured properly the first time around. If people had faith in the measuring system as it now stands there wouldn't be much for protesting because people would trust that the horses were all measured accurately prior to going into the ring. Minimom got it exactly right in her last post.

Exactly right. If everyone had faith in the initial measuring in, then protests wold be few and far between - and none of this 1/4" stress allowance would be an issue. And trainers known for their ability to magically get horses in at 34" (or whatever height is necessary) that were anything but would be forced to toe the line - in both registries.

Do you think we just come up with this stuff to tick some of you off... We have talked to a great number of people who signed the original polls to knowexactly what goes on at the shows..and if the problem were this quarter of and inch and remained a quarter of an inch who would really care that

much

Oh - I have no doubt that some would care about that 1/4" very much.

McBunz - the way some of these threads go - the sneering and the condescension that goes on - I wonder sometimes if it is all about the rules being enforced... or for a few, a bit of pot-stirring for fun as well...

.. Saying it is alright to be a 1/4 inch over is just asking to increase the size of horses trying to pass under the 34 inch limit that are alreadyover sized..

No one said it was "alright" to be 1/4" over... there is just a discussion about the stress of the protest scenario that I wonder if you have ever seen or been involved in. *shrug*

A great deal of the people who signed these polls do show and are offended when they stand their 33 inch horse next to a horsethat is obviously 3 inches or more taller than theirs outside the show ring.. The only answer to this is to enforce the existing rules.. and nobody

seems to be doing this..

Well, the vast majority of us want to have the rules enforced - contrary to what you seem to imply. And the measuring practices in both registries need to be addressed. For those who are pointing fingers and do not show - and thus rarely have cause to measure the horses getting fat and sassy out in the pasture - how tall are they? Have you checked lately? You might be in for a surprise... and your measurements might vary with those taken by someone else on the same horse.

It bothered me to see an AMHA horse that left here as it went over 34" (and not by a mere 1/4" either) showing and doing well in the over 32 to 34 class.... and to hear that he was "an honest 34" " from the trainer who is not known to be the "squeeze 'em under" type...

I guess when 36" AMHR Over horses can be seen in AMHR Under classes at times... that must be fine as AMHA had nothing to do with it - right? You see - too narrow of a focus does not help solve anything. All measurement issues need to be addressed.

But such are the joys of being involved in a height breed. Unless we can come up with some hi-tech laser measuring device, measuring will always be more of an art than a science - as someone wise noted upthread.

Anyway - discussions like this are a healthy and vital part of the process... with all opinions/thoughts/concerns being aired and considered...

[SIZE=8pt]edited for typos due to poor typing skills[/SIZE]

 

[LisaF.]

Tagalong - My horses are not trained to be in a crowd. I would think trained horses that go to all these shows would be so used to the crowds and the strangers that measure them it would not bother them to be measured.

We do not need to change where we measure our miniature horses. This is another part of what AMHA was founded on.

Do you know what I see and this is what is sad?

People like Genie and Mary Lou and I am sure others ( I am thankful I have not had to do it, but I would if I needed to) have turned in their AMHA papers on horses that went over.

I see HONEST people paying for the dishonestly of others.

Can someone explain to me if this 1/4" went by the rules in getting passed?...I may be mistaken, but I don't think it was.

Why is it so hard to follow the rules? Call me think headed, but I honestly don't get it.

Rules are made for a reason - and they are not to be broken. That is my oppinion!

For the ones that think all of this is ok - PLease explain WHY it is ok to break rules?

 

[tagalong]

Tagalong - My horses are not trained to be in a crowd. I would think trained horses that go to all these shows would be so used to the crowds and the strangers that measure them it would not bother them to be measured.

Well. you might be surprized then

... I have seen very experienced show horses get frazzled when the humans around them were tense and/or frazzled themselves. Even a placid horse can get all WOOHOO!! and EEEEHAAAAW! in the exciting and charged atmosphere of a show. We all know that excitement/tension/fear can travel down the reins or lead shank to a horse - and some of them can - and will - react to that. They're horses - not robots.

We do not need to change where we measure our miniature horses. This is another part of what AMHA was founded on.

Many find measuring at the last hair of the mane to be inaccurate and open to debate. All other breeds measure from the top of the withers.... who knows, in time both AMHA and AMHR may go that route. It would make more sense in the long run - IMO.

People like Genie and Mary Lou and I am sure others ( I am thankful I have not had to do it, but I would if I needed to) have turned in their AMHA papers on horses that went over.

Many have done so - including farms I have worked for/on - and it is so noted in the studbook. It is not just a select few that do so.

For the ones that think all of this is ok - PLease explain WHY it is ok to break rules?

Lisa - I think many of us have outlined our thoughts about this already in this thread. I will not bore anyone with repeating myself again. But the 34" rule/standard would still hold true as I understood it. And that 1/4" leeway for the protest measurements seems worthy of examination/discussion to me - with the fallout of losing prizes, placings and ribbons attached if said horse does not measure in even with that allowance. But everything is open to discussion and can be rescinded - as we know.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Tagalong,

At this point, you're just wasting your breath. You are NOT telling them what they want to hear, they will never understand what you are saying because they simply don't want to. Your effort to spell it out simply and clearly...is a total waste of time at this point. They have never been in the situation this allowance is setup for, probably never will, why bother?

 

[Genie]

Most of us have strong opinions on both sides of this issue and I guess you all know that I am on the "34 inches is 34 inches" side of it.

I know we are beating this to death and agree that we are all wasting our breath. I just wish I could stop coming back and reading this thread.

I have strong feelings about my integrity and have been involved in many sporting activities over more than 60 years where I followed the rules and expected all involved to do the same.

If the activity is "a fun thing" and I consider local fairs more of a "fun thing" then I would not be bent out of shape with the people who need to win so badly, trying to "squeeze a horse in" to an "A" show.

I also do understand what the people who are for the 1/4 inch are saying when their horse can be over just because of a bit of hoof or tense or nervous, but that's the price you pay for being so close to 34 inches with your horse, when you are trying to exhibit them at the highest levels..

I asked my husband "hypothetically" "what do you think about showing your horse in a 34 and under class and having the show stewards allow 1/4 inch leeway to horses being measured?"

He said "it's not right" ..............."in boxing for instance, the weight class guideline is strictly followed and if your weight exceeds the guideline..too bad".

In all competition there are guidelines and for the boxer who weighed over by an ounce, he should have left the last cheezie in the bag.

In AMHA showing the height may not be able to be measured as accurately as the weight in boxing, however until there is an accurate way to do so, we should be required to be guided by the person entrusted with the measuring duties.

Is the AMHA wishing to be a professional organization, or is it not?

 

[Charley]

Most of us have strong opinions on both sides of this issue and I guess you all know that I am on the "34 inches is 34 inches" side of it.
I know we are beating this to death and agree that we are all wasting our breath. I just wish I could stop coming back and reading this thread.

I have strong feelings about my integrity and have been involved in many sporting activities over more than 60 years where I followed the rules and expected all involved to do the same.

If the activity is "a fun thing" and I consider local fairs more of a "fun thing" then I would not be bent out of shape with the people who need to win so badly, trying to "squeeze a horse in" to an "A" show.

I also do understand what the people who are for the 1/4 inch are saying when their horse can be over just because of a bit of hoof or tense or nervous, but that's the price you pay for being so close to 34 inches with your horse, when you are trying to exhibit them at the highest levels..

I asked my husband "hypothetically" "what do you think about showing your horse in a 34 and under class and having the show stewards allow 1/4 inch leeway to horses being measured?"

He said "it's not right" ..............."in boxing for instance, the weight class guideline is strictly followed and if your weight exceeds the guideline..too bad".

In all competition there are guidelines and for the boxer who weighed over by an ounce, he should have left the last cheezie in the bag.

In AMHA showing the height may not be able to be measured as accurately as the weight in boxing, however until there is an accurate way to do so, we should be required to be guided by the person entrusted with the measuring duties.

Is the AMHA wishing to be a professional organization, or is it not?

Excellent post!!!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

At first I was totally against it. But now after reading some comments and setteling down and actually reading it, its not that bad of a rule. They aren't changing the standard, your horse still must measure 34" to beable to show, everything is ok. As long as we follow the rules of measuring.

Measuring in horses can be a tense time. The steward is rushing, a steward your horse doesnt even know and has a huge measuring stick in their hands, other people and other horses waiting in line, and I know some people think that these show horses should be well behaved and just stand there but honestly Im sure your horses that stay at home can do a better job. Some of these horses are just plain psycos.

I think AMHA has done a good thing, not sure if they went thru it correctly, or atleast get the people to vote in on it. But as long as the rules are followed, and its no more then a 1/4" I am not against this rule. They are still keeping to the standard, your horse still must measure in 34" or under.

 

[HGFarm]

Utterly ridiculous and here we go again....

 

[loveminis]

I agree with what Mary Lou said.

 

[Mona]

JMS.. I also do not see it as bad with the 1/4 inch grace BUT I do have a problem with 1/4 inch over 34" as Tom O'Connell also pointed out... Perhaps ALL of us have a different take on this NEW POLICY.. I read it as "horses 34" has this 1/4" grace also".. WHICH is against the Standard of AMHA in the rulebook for registering and showing and Standard Of Perfection.. They have to change EVERYTHING in the Rulebook making an exception "AMHA horses can measure 34 1/4" when protested at shows".

My sentiments EXACTLY Mary Lou!!!!

 

[maestoso]

If the horse measures 34" during measuring, then gets protested, and when measured during the protest measures at 34 and 1/4"... how is this any different then a horse who measures 32 and 1/4 during a protest???? The point is that a horse can be tense during the situation and therefor creating a margin of error during measuring. It makes no difference weather theyb are trying to get into the 30-32 or the 32-34.

If a horse initially measures 34 and 1/4" they can't show. It is ONLY during a protest.

It makes NO sense to allow it in every division except the top, because you are basically saying that a 32" horse could measure slightly over in a protest and that is OK, let them show in that division, but if a 34" horse measures over, then it has nothing to do with the stress, it is just too tall. That makes NO sense at all!

Has anyone actually looked at how much 1/4 of an inch is lately?

 

[McBunz]

Posted by the C.A.R.E Group

Just a note concerning the directors vote to allow a 1/4 inch protest measurement for all height divisions at the shows. Refer back to the bylaw Article V, Section 3 (A) which states, "The Board of Directors shall have the power and authority to make, amend, repeal, and enforce such rules and regulations, NOT CONTRARY TO LAW, THE ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION, OR THESE BYLAWS" There are several bylaws that state that the AMHA Miniature Horse must measure 34 inches and under at the base of the last hairs of the mane to meet the requirements to be registered with the Association. The 1/4 inch protest measurement is in conflict with all these bylaws.

This is another reason for the concern the CARE group has for the directors not enforcing the rules.