What does it mean if a horse it double or triple bred...

[novachick]

I see a lot of horses that are double bred "so and so"...what exactly does that mean? Is it a certain degree of inbreeding to the same horse, but within a safe number a generations to avoing inbreeding issues? Or is it just multiple breedings to the same line of horses, but different individual horses?

What is a safe number of generations to be seperated by? For example...would you breed horse A (sire) to horse B (dam), resulting in horse C (filly) and then rebreed horse A to horse C? Would you do it if 2, 3, or 4 generations seperate the male and female to be bred?

Please understand I am not asking because of any plans of breeding on my own, but I don't want to bash anyone in a public forum either, so I'm being a bit cryptic.

Thanks!

 

[Sanny]

I shouldn't even post because I know nothing about it, but I can't help but laugh a little about the fact that with humans it is called "in-breeding" and everyone is horrified when they hear about it but in horses it is called "line-breeding" and people are proud about it and promote it.

I have to say it is a little creepy to me to see a horses pedigree that has the same horse as a sire and a grand-sire. I think when this is done you either end up with a totally awesome horse that has dramatically enhanced all the great features of that line or you end up with a genetically messed up horse with special needs and challenges.

Having said that, we have some really awesome horses that are "line-bred"

so I have to say the breeders and big farms out there that know what they are doing are producing some really outstanding horses but I do not feel "line-breeding" is something a small breeder or so-called "backyard breeder" should be playing around with.

 

[novachick]

So what you are saying is that in horses it is acceptable to have a sire and grand-sire be the same horse? I also was shocked to see it...can any other breeders chime in on the subject?

 

[Erica]

I may not be the best to respond but I will give my thoughts.

When breeding any two horses one needs to be critical of the two indiviuals; if you are considering linebreeding you need to be even more so and be even "over critical". Look at the horses and make sure you are not doubling up on faults and that the two horses are a good match regardless of pedigree.

All that being said I have done some line breeding and have some breeding stock that are line bred. I have a stallion who is a Redboy son as well as a Redboy grandson (I love this horse and he is a hof and RES national champion) I even bred him to a redboy daughter and they have a filly that is just awesome. I didn't bred them together just because their pedigrees, but because it was a good match. I also have seversal yhat are buckeroo on to and bottom of their pedigree.

When dabbling in linebreeding you just really need to deeply evauluate the indiviuals horses you are looking at breeding.

 

[Sanny]

Erica did a good job explaining what I wanted to say. This is something best left to people who are very experienced and know exactly what they are doing and usually this means what you are seeing (like Erica's horse) are outstanding horses and proven good producing bloodlines.

 

[Joanne]

Genes are funny. Even those with lots of years of experience cannot know how the genes will respond. You know when the foal is born.

Complicating matters, without parentage qualification on the majority of our pedigrees, the real lineage is unverified. It is hard, therefore, to know everything about the horses' pedigree.

 

[Katiean]

To give a simple answer, if you have 2 mares and breed them to the same sire. One has a colt and one has a filly and you breed the 2 foals (at proper breeding age) that is double breed. The sire will appear twice on the pedigree. You can also breed the same filly back to her sire and that too is double bred. If you take the the foal from the filly and colt and breed her back to her grand father That would be triple bred. I would not practice this type of breeding practices because every BAD fault that that sire had WILL be that much stronger. You will also have several problems that were not known in the sire. We had a brother sister cross in our Mini Rex show rabbits. Surprisingly the whole litter was show quality. Sure the resulting doe we had took Best In Show. However, no matter what we crossed her with, her young, except one didn't live and, it was NOT show quality. I know these things are found out quicker in rabbits since it takes 30 days for a new litter. But, one can apply what is learned geneticly from the rabbits to the horses.

 

[novachick]

Thanks for the information everyone! I can kind of explain my reasoning for my question now...

We bought Goldi before doing much research into minis other than fencing, stall and feed requirements. We weren't looking for a show horse, only a pet for my daughter. So needless to say, we didn't really ask a lot of questions about her pedigree, size she would be, etc... We got her from a breeder that pasture breeds her stud to every mare, by letting them run together all the time. So just yesterday, I realized I could get onto horsestudbook.com and look into Goldi's background. Well, I quickly found out that her sire is also her grand-sire. I was shocked and very disappointed that I wasn't told this (but I didn't ask either, so I am to blame as well). I'm glad to hear that it is something that is done in horse breeding, although I don't think it was purpously done in this case, as someone like Erica would do it for the betterment of the horse.

So, lesson learned, next time I will ask for the parents names and look them up before I buy!

 

[disneyhorse]

Line breeding is fairly common because you can double-up on the desirable traits. The reason it is such a taboo for humans and most breeders try to suggest staying away from it is because you can also double-up on the UNdesirable traits.

There is also the genetic term "hybrid vigor" which further works against line breeding.

But when done PROPERLY and ETHICALLY it's not a problem at all.

I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you...

Andrea

 

[*minis*]

I think you might find this thread helpful http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=55353

 

[novachick]

I think you might find this thread helpful http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=55353

Very interesting, thanks for the reference!

 

[RnRs Lilnickers]

Can you breed horses that are 1/2 brother and sister? same sire different dams? or same dams different sires? I am not planning on this but have been asked this question before and have no idea what the answer is.

 

[Bunnylady]

Katiean introduced rabbits into this thread, so I'll respond from the perspective of a rabbit breeder with nearly twenty years' experience with five different breeds. Yes, you certainly can breed half-siblings. It is like any other variation on line breeding. The question is, why do you want to? If these individuals are of exceptional type, then their offspring should be good, too. If neither one is very good, the resulting baby will probably not be either. Notice that I'm using words like "probably" and "should." Rabbit breeders get to see multiple offspring from the same parents in a short period of time, so we know there are no guarantees. You can have potential grand champions and "junk" in the same litter. If you breed two animals with the same strengths together, or the same weaknesses, you will probably see those same features in the offspring. Two "rights" may make a "wrong," but two "wrongs" almost never make a "right." This is why I am unimpressed by the names on a pedigree, but insist on evaluating the animal in its own right. "Prepotency" is the ability of an animal to pass on its good features to its offspring. Some lines have it, some don't, but not every baby is going to be a carbon copy of even the most prepotent sire. This kid's brother may be a National Champion, but that doesn't mean he will be.

Most of the people that ask me this type of question are looking to breed, and don't know anyone else that breeds this type of rabbit. With rabbits it's not as big of a deal, they don't live all that long, anyway. With horses, I would try to discourage the would-be-breeder, as they probably don't know enough about it to be doing any more than just adding individuals to the pet-quality population. I'd be afraid they were looking at animals and seeing $$$. I would strongly suggest that this person educate themselves on breeding, conformation, and horses in general, before they act on an impulse that could result in disaster!