What IS the difference between Country Pleasure

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4mymirage

I LOVE that little horse! It looks like your horse has a little too much action in that picture for CP (just drive him a little more relaxed and slower for CP)... but his head isn't up and collected enough for SP. He looks like he would be AMAZING in Roadster right in that picture though! I love the most that he has a lot of action in the hock... very hard to find in a drivinghorse. Most don't lift their hocks that high, even the best of them...

Andrea
 
OK, please chime in on this, but my perception is the horses they pin in AMHA Single Pleasure move much differently than what we have in AMHR. The R horses have a lot of lift and animation, the A horses throw their legs up and out. Hard to describe--looks really "odd" to my uneducated eye. I don't "do" the A circuit--just what I saw at AMHA World and in the World magazine.

Sami, I hope there is an improved learning curve, because in my experience less than half of the judges we show under understand performance classes.

Pam Yes that is what I spoke to in my Post that we have some wonderful and VERY clear videos of each at the AMHA judges clinics. The judges commented that they finally saw and spoke to the differences. It was a wonderful comparison. So Yes, the learning curve was great. By Jove I think we have got it. On this topic anyway. Oh and I am new to this forum and I find it interesting how many different opinions there are on a driving horse. hummmmmm. Now exactly HOW is any judge going to make all of you happy!!!! Just something to think about :saludando:
 
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Sami, I hope there is an improved learning curve, because in my experience less than half of the judges we show under understand performance classes.
Well its nice to hear NZ isn't alone on that. We have the same problems down here!! Hopefully some day the focus will change and people will realise that function must follow form and activity isn't for pet quality horses.... We only have SPD and roadster classes on offer so that is how far we have to come!!!

as far as HOW is any judge going to make all of you happy!!!! provided the judge used the rules and outline specified by the association you are juding for competitors should be happy. I don't judge minis but I compare it much like if I was judging a PC Dressage event vrs NZEF Dressage event - the critera, way of going and expection is different and so long as I apply the rules and regluations relevant to each event approriately then I think I have done a good job and given all competitors a fair shot and they will understand why I have placed what I have....
 
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I just wanted to say, welcome to the forum Sami! :saludando:

I hope you stay and keep posting!
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Linda (aka Fred) I want to say MAJORITY speaking, of course good ol Rum Runner is one to be reckoned with and then of course Pockets from Alice............Bill puts out nice driving horses.

Majority though and I think more AMHA wise the east is the halter area.
 
Hello,

I just wanted to add another personal story. We show mostly ADS where overchecks and sidechecks are prohibited.

When we were at a show last year with our first-season, 3 year old gelding in a country pleasure class, being judged by a well-known, well-seasoned halter judge, I was informed that I needed to check him up tighter and add a martingale to get a more collected, up-headed look and then I might win!

Now, that's not the way I was ever taught to get a correct and pretty headset. I think it's cruel and I see many horses objecting because it is false and they are being pushed ahead at inapppropriate rates in order to get a finished look. Well, it takes time to get that finish and I am thankful for ADS ....lots of emphasis on bending, relaxed learning and improvement over the seasons.

I think it must also be difficult for trainers out there when they have owners that don't understand that Great Driving Horses take time to develop ....I think all of us need more education (owners, judges, breeders, exhibitors and trainers) about humane, safe and stellar training practices!

Because, I guarantee that the general public who are watching these ratcheted SP horses do not like it and think it is cruel .... just something to be aware of since whenever we are in public, we are promoting this breed and showing others how we treat our horses!
 
I have had horses that were shown with success in both classes. At the time it was easily done and accepted practice ( as I assume it still is today in those circles). Hackneys were frequently used with weighted shoes and extended hoof length. One stallion that showed with a four inch total hoof length and there was a box of his ribbons to proved it worked. I shudder that minis might be altered to produce this type of action. My thoughts today are that if a horse does not have the action to win naturally they are being shown in the wrong classes. I have seen a few minis with natural action and no doubt there will be people trying to copy this with the same methods that were (are) used on other breeds.
 
Of course, proper manners SHOULD BE an integral part of the presentation of ANY driving horse be it SP or CP--truth is, though, that horses,especially in SP classes, often get well-placed while exhibiting a lack of same.

"It takes time and talent to develop" ANY driving horse--not just a SP horse....more time, and dare I say, more talent, than is frequently evident in much of the 'training' for Miniature horse breed driving, IMO. Dr. Pam, I strongly feel that one BIG reason that you see that odd way of going in AMHA-only(meaning, supposedly under 34" horses)is that they have been 'helped' in various ways(Geese is closer to what sometimes, if not often, is going on than perhaps he realizes....). A question--what do you think when you see a photo of a miniature driving horse whose foreleg is 'WAY up, and 'WAY out, yet there is almost no corresponding hock action in the diagonal hind? What about horses who appear to have a puppeteer pulling their strings, especially at the walk? I would be interested in knowing whether 'our' judges are being made aware of what these kinds of movement almost certainly mean-especially relative to the (AMHA, at least)Rulebook? Are they being taught, as they should be, how to recognize genuinely talented movement vs. enhanced(which the AMHA Rulebook, at least, states should NOT be happening.....)

I SALUTE Cindy for her post; she is SO right-on in her comments! Tight checks and running martingales do NOT truly finished, genuinely collected horses make...only time and patient, careful, genuinely proper training procedures may accomplish that worthy goal. For a judge to tell an exhibitor that it is those kinds of things that may increase their chance of winning speaks VERY POORLY of the training and knowledge of that judge. It must be remembered that our horses are NOT Hackneys,OR Saddlebreds, Modern Shetlands(whose arena driving standards have obviously been based on those of certain of the high action, 'enhancement is fine',larger breeds),or even QHs-and should not be judged by any of those breeds' standards for show ring driving, but instead, by well-accepted general standards of driving-a 'middle of the road' approach, if you will-because our breed is 'middle of the road' in acceptable type/way of going. If you breed, or find, a miniature with a lot of natural action-great! Develop it kindly, and try to breed it forward,if that is what appeals to you-as there is more and more interest in the performance aspect(and with miniatures, this is largely going to be driving), athleticism of the horse rightfully becomes more and more important--making those who can breed/produce genuinely athletic movers-whether they be those of long, reaching stride, or more elevated action, ever more desirable. But--BREED for that movement-develop it honestlyand kindly though training--and then both the driver AND the horse can ENJOY the drive!
 
[SIZE=12pt]But--BREED for that movement-develop it honestlyand kindly though training--and then both the driver AND the horse can ENJOY the drive![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]HERE! HERE!! :aktion033: :aktion033: [/SIZE]
 
You and I have the same thoughts.

Gosh our country classes here are HUGE.................and the single pleasure classes also. That is a trend I have noticed though...........the main driving seems to come from the NW and the Midwest..............the east is the halter world.

JUST MY OPINION.


Oh my Rob! : ) ... This could open a can of discussion itself.... LOL I think a few years ago that might have been true... (halter horses from the east) but I have observed many, many champions and top horses coming from and bred in the NW. AMHA's 2007 Champion of Champions, the top honors of the show, was given to a NW bred and shown, yearling filly to boot! Not to mention the NW bred horses that have attained the top placings at AMHR Nationals the past few years. Although, I think we still may top having some of the best driving and all-round performance horses... with no discredit to any outstanding driving horses from the east or other!

IMO... the enthusiasts of the NW (including myself) should now look in their own back yard for some of the best horses available in the country! When I was searching for AMHR/ASPC prospects.... although I ended up with some what I feel, gorgeous ones.... I don't think I researched enough close to home... there are many good breeders in the area and I missed out on several outstanding prospects.

Sorry... got off subject a bit....

Sami had a point about how does a judge satisfy us all?.... well, its obvious that you can't please everybody... but I do believe we have in both AMHA and AMHR, rule books explaining the standard of what these horses are suppose to look like driving... and what action and tack mis-usage is to be penalize. Imagine being able as a judge to refer to the rule book.. to an unsatisfied exhibitor that expresses the requirement or penalized action that their horse or they did in justification for their decision.

Maybe there needs to be more education mandatory for the judges to follow our official rule book guidelines and accountability for their choices in the show ring.... besides it being just their opinion...biased or unbiased. I do not mean these comments to be derogatory towards judges, as I believe per human nature, that they probably, for the most part, are choosing what they feel is correct.

IMO it is never "down" to CP by a change "over to". (Chandler : ) Especially these days when the CP classes are sometimes twofold the open/single classes! Most will probably agree that the demand on the horses may be somewhat higher or tougher for the SP horse these days that a young or green horse might not be able to handle at first. I also love the fancy look of SP... can't help it.... but I remember the year Sweety swept the Country classes.. there was nothing prettier! I also believe that some of the accepted action from the horses in the SP class is what is described to be in the "Park" division also JMO.
 

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