What is YOUR standard of perfection

[Lisa Strass]

I usually try not to comment on this type of topic. Because I believe a mini is a mini and pony is a pony. but this is what I and others saw at the Area 6 show . There were old style stocky minis, the newer slimmer minis, the shetlands galore being shown and winning in the mini classes. Actually the owner of one of these shrimpy shetlands came up to me and said, 'isn't she gorgeous and she can get in as a mini now.' my rude comment back to him, which really ticked him off was- " well, if she's a shetland, then she should be in the shetland class no matter how tall she is." ooppss he did stomp off. And then what I thought to top it off, here come the hackneys in the shetland classes and then a shrimpy hackney was in a mini class and WON. yuck, yuck, yuck. so what could get worse than that, right. Well, here it goes- I swear I saw a very little 1/2 arabian being shown in the pony classes. it blew me away along with 5 other people, we all saw this horse separately at different times and later that day when we all sat down to think about what we saw that day, we all about fell out of ours seats when one of us mentioned the same arab horse, we just thought we were over reacting, but realized that is what we saw. So the next morning, we sat as a group at my stalls and started looking out for this arab, there it was agin. and it won.

dont get me wrong, i know people are going to start screaming, where do you think the mini came from. I know, I know. but lets leave the minis alone and not bring the stylier shetlands into the minis and especially keep out the hackneys and now the arabs.

please do not yell at me, cause I just had to get that off my mind. but no matter what kind of horse it is. I still like my minis because when it comes to cleaning stalls, their little piles are fun to clean, I do not need to hire a front end loader and dump truck to clean their stalls. ha ha. Cause I did have to clean these HUGE piles when the ponies decided to unload right in front of my stalls... ha ha ha

Would you like my "newer slimmer mini" more if I threw away (denied) his/her Shetland papers? You can tell me all day that my small Shetlands should be shown as such... because they are.

All of the Shetlands that we show as Minis have also been shown as Shetlands. We have a mare that we took to Congress and Nationals last year, and she's going to both again this year.

A lot of horses are double registered Pinto and AMHR, and we don't tell their owners to pick one or the other. A lot of 34" and under horses are registered AMHA and AMHR, and we don't tell them to pick one organization either.

I think I know the "1/2 Arab" you're talking about, and it's not half-Arab. It IS a VERY nice Classic Shetland. I'd love to have this horse in Mini size!

 

[Leeana]

if it is under 38 inches it is a mini and has every right to show in the ring and win doesnt it?

That's my perspective as well

Yes exactly, the standard of perfection is fine just how it is. Lori, there are people that do not and will not like the same type or style of horse as you do ....why do you feel that we should be "pushed" out of the breed? Another issue, the judges do not see registration papers when you walk your horse into the ring ...when you have a horse in the miniature ring ...it does not matter if its AMHA/AMHR or AMHR/ASPC....its a MINIATURE no matter what the other set of papers say (of course, if its under that 38" height mark legally.

You want a standard of perfection?

There. 19 consecutive local Grands (18 different judges), 2 Area Grands, and a National Grand that was Unanimous all the way through, plus Halter Horse of the Year and a few All-Star Titles thrown in for good measure. All in a package that is WELL UNDER 38”.

 

[Erica]

Lisa you quoted it before I did, as I went back and it was deleted, but I also know this horse she's talking about.......or I'm 99% sure I do, as I know I'm thinking about the same one you are and he is VERY NICE........and he's not a arab, but an awesome classic stallion that's pretty small too.

What I don't get is no one is pushing anyone else to breed something they personally don't like....don't want to go a certain route, don't?

I personally see no reason not to introduce a horse (or horses) that can help the gene pool and create a better horse down the road.....it's called evolution of the breed. I personally am very happy to see how far the miniature horses have came in the last 10 years....

and I guess people who maybe don't like what's winning in the show ring, they have just as much right to get their judges card as anyone......but I personally see several different types of horses winning at the shows we attend, not just a single one.....

 

[strass]

You want a standard of perfection?

There. 19 consecutive local Grands (18 different judges), 2 Area Grands, and a National Grand that was Unanimous all the way through, plus Halter Horse of the Year and a few All-Star Titles thrown in for good measure. All in a package that is WELL UNDER 38”.

Thank you Leeana. I couldn't have hoped for anything nicer if I had written it myself.

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Thank you Leeana. I couldn't have hoped for anything nicer if I had written it myself.

Mike you crack me up.

 

[Minimor]

This is the best thread we've had on here in ages, if you ask me--which of course no one ever does.

This thread at least has clarified that the only thing anyone can agree on (supposedly) is the height rule, yet that’s the one rule that doesn’t get enforced.

I haven't seen anyone--even MiLo Minis--disputing the fact that it's a case of to each his own. Each & every one of us breeds/buys for what we like, and it's nice if each & every one of us can be accepting of the fact that what we like may not be what everyone else likes, and it may not be what is winning in the ring. What I am curious about now, though, is this.

How far are you willing to go with this 'to each his own' idea? Those of you who like the Modern Shetland/Hackney look--are you willing to sacrifice the height rule for the sake of getting more Modern Shetlands into AMHR? Are you okay with others hardshipping in ponies that measure an honest 42 or 43 inches when measured like a mini? Would YOU hardship in such a pony if you can find a steward that will measure that pony in? Or will you stick to the rules but be happy to look the other way when "the other guy" hardships in that 43" mini and then shows it in the 36"-38" class? Or will you actually compliment that other guy on his lovely pony and tell him what an asset that pony is to the Mini world, in spite of the fact that it's 5" over the height limit for Minis? Or do you just stick your head in the sand and tell yourself (or maybe you honestly believe this and don't have to stick your head in the sand?!) that every Mini in AMHR is really 38" or smaller and you don't believe there are any that really measure over that?

I think one topic leads into another here--in fact I sort of led this thread that way with my earlier post!--because from what I have seen there would be a lot fewer Modern Shetland type Minis now if the height rule were strictly enforced.

There are probably a few small Moderns out there, but I'd think that they're very few in number yet just because anything with Hackney pony in it is usually taller. So, by enforcing the height rule, the vast majority of the Moderns will be eliminated from AMHR, at least at this time. And that actually brings us back to MiLo Minis original post! Does "your" standard of perfection include losing sight of the height limit???

if it is under 38 inches it is a mini and has every right to show in the ring and win doesnt it?

No one has said it didn't! But....if it isn't under 38" are you still happy to have it out in the ring, winning or not?? When that over 38" pony beats your honest to goodness 36" Mini, or your 37" Mini or whatever, will you go to the handler of that other pony and say "CONGRATULATIONS, you DESERVED to win!"??
And no, none of what I have said here is sour grapes. At the shows I attend we don't have any Shetlands showing as Minis. (well, that's not strictly true, this year there was one Shetland filly....and she was shown in the under division, measured in honestly too I am certain) Here there is absolutely nothing to complain about in terms of too-tall horses being measured in. I'd be the last one that could complain about tall horses, because I probably have some of the tallest Minis in this area--and they still measure in just fine without having to be stretched or have their backs pushed down.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I think everyone agrees that pretty much the "standard of perfection" is breeding for a conformationally correct horse that stays 38" & under (AMHR).

Anyone can pick at what style they want too breed for, what size, and what tempermant.

I think the biggest problem we have in both registeries is when it comes to measuring our horses. We are a height registry, no question about it, we need to get these height right.

Also perhaps stop getting dwarfs registered into AMHR.

We do have pics now.

 

[mininik]

"No one has said it didn't! But....if it isn't under 38" are you still happy to have it out in the ring, winning or not?? When that over 38" pony beats your honest to goodness 36" Mini, or your 37" Mini or whatever, will you go to the handler of that other pony and say "CONGRATULATIONS, you DESERVED to win!"??" Minimor

What a victim's stance. PROTEST!

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

I really think this thread has stepped on a few toes, or stomped on them.

But for MY educational purpose, I am still confused as to how a Shetland can be registered as a mini, but not the reverse. If a horse does have shetland parents, then it is a shetland, right? Am I to understand that the miniature horse is NOT a breed, but only a height horse? Cause I would think if any 'Breed" of horse, as long as it is 38" and under, it can be registered AMHR. So does this mean a shetland, POA, Hackney, etc can be registered in AMHR? Seriously, this is something I honestly do not understand. Does this same thing apply to AMHA, as long as it is 34"? Someone explain this, maybe this would help others understand.

Has the mini not been set as a "breed" yet?

I do understand that AMHR is a height registry. So if this is the case, and all 38" horses are allowed to be registed, should we split them like the shetlands? That would make sense to me. Maybe it would make everyone happy.

Example: Schnauzer dogs have 3 different sizes...

Miniature Schnauzer

Standard Schnauzer

Giant Schnauzer

They are all basically the same, but are considered different "Breeds". I guess this is why I am so confused. Granted I am not a big dog breeder, but how could you register a Standard Schnauzer if one parent is Giant and the other is Standard?

HELP........

 

[Minimor]

Yes of course mininik--and I would protest it. Many won't though, for whatever reason. And that's what I wondered--are most okay with this practice? are people afraid to protest? And how do these oversize ponies get measured in anyway? Like I said, when it's a half inch over, that can be accounted for by all sorts of factors--a tense horse, a different farrier/different hoof length--but when it's INCHES.

Should not a steward be held accountable for measuring in a horse that is in reality INCHES over the 38" limit??

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Also perhaps stop getting dwarfs registered into AMHR.

We do have pics now.

Jamie, IMO the thing with the dwarfs being registered, I think the registeries would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit for determining a horse to be a dwarf. The world is sue happy and someone would in a heart beat scream their mini isn't a dwarf, that the registry is slandering their name, name of their horses, etc, and file a complaint with the closest lawyer in a NY minute. I don't see why a breeder would want to register a dwarf anyway but to each their own.

Now if the horse has dwarf characteristics, that would be open to debate as it has been seen here several times, as to just what characteristics there are and how severe those characteristics are. The best we can do as breeders is to educate ourselves and when it comes to buying, selling, breeding, be selective in your stock, do your homework, and hope for the best.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

To get a pony registered into ASPC it MUST have 2 ASPC REGISTERED parents. The ASPC pony is a breed registry.

AMHR and AMHA right now are both considered height registeries. Neither one will become a breed registry until both registeries have closed. Now AMHA has decided to officially close their registry in the next 5 years so this years current foals and older horses are still eligible to be hardshipped into AMHA, but next years foals are not. BTW the horse must be 5 years of age to be eligible for AMHA hardship registration, but any horse can be eligible for AMHA hardship registration as long as they meet the confirmation requirements and they are under 34".

AMHR in a way has closed there books too some but not to others. AMHR still accepts horses from AMHA, ASPC, and the Fabella registry. As long as they are under 38" then they are eligible for registration and they MUST be registered in one of those registeries.

AMHR does have 2 divisions, the under (A) division 34" and under and the over (B) division 34"-38".

Also perhaps stop getting dwarfs registered into AMHR.

We do have pics now.

Jamie, IMO the thing with the dwarfs being registered, I think the registeries would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit for determining a horse to be a dwarf. The world is sue happy and someone would in a heart beat scream their mini isn't a dwarf, that the registry is slandering their name, name of their horses, etc, and file a complaint with the closest lawyer in a NY minute. I don't see why a breeder would want to register a dwarf anyway but to each their own.

Now if the horse has dwarf characteristics, that would be open to debate as it has been seen here several times, as to just what characteristics there are and how severe those characteristics are. The best we can do as breeders is to educate ourselves and when it comes to buying, selling, breeding, be selective in your stock, do your homework, and hope for the best.

You are right Sheyrl unfortuantly that is the case

Some of these pictures I have seen from the horsestudbook.com just makes me go crazy at some of them but no one can do anything about it.

 

[OhHorsePee]

I love the sleek look of a classic! As long as they measure honestly into the class I don't have a problem. Now as for the measuring. I think, and someone else I know expressed this to me, that the buttock of the horse/pony being measured should be placed flat against a wall. That way there is no stretching allowed. ALSO I think the cheater hairs should be made to be taken off. I have seen them in such a long strip it was pathetic and understood how some got in under the line.

 

[mininik]

The Simple Life Farm -

Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodles are all one breed based on bloodlines. If a Toy measures over 10", it is a Miniature up to 15". Anything over 15" is a Standard.

Miniature, Standard and Giant Schnauzers are all separate breeds based on bloodlines. If they are over or under height they are faulted or disqualified in the ring, but not eliminated from registration, nor are they are free to cross with similarly sized Schnauzers (ex. over-sized Miniature to Standard, etc.).

Shetland Ponies are a breed based on bloodlines. Miniature Horses are purely a height breed, with no bloodline requirements.

"Now as for the measuring. I think, and someone else I know expressed this to me, that the buttock of the horse/pony being measured should be placed flat against a wall. That way there is no stretching allowed." OhHorsePee

What about the horses this would effect that are naturally camped out?

"Should not a steward be held accountable for measuring in a horse that is in reality INCHES over the 38" limit??" Minimor

There's a thought, but then shouldn't the exhibitors be held accountable for not protesting a horse that they "know" to be over height?

 

[Minimor]

There's a thought, but then shouldn't the exhibitors be held accountable for protesting a horse that they "know" to be over height?

How do you mean? In what way would "I" be accountable for protesting someone else's horse? It's silly to say that the onus should be on fellow exhibitors to protest any horse(s) that they know to be oversize. So, just let everything in & let exhibitors police the height limit? There's a bad idea, just because it would be an incredible waste of time to have to keep stopping the show and doing the protest measuring! Besides, is it still the rule that you can only protest if you have a horse showing in the same class as the horse you want to protest? That rule can seriously limit the potential protests in some classes.
If you're meaning there should be some penalty for a person who protests because they think they "know" the horse is over 38" and in reality the horse is not oversized....well then the protester is out his $100--and I believe it's enough of a penalty that it will stop most people from making protests just to harass someone.

If a steward measures in a horse for its AMHR papers and then however much later that horse is protested and found to be 43", I believe that steward that originally measured the horse for AMHR registration should be fined, or lose his card--as should the judge that witnessed it. Have there be a 1/2 inch or even a 1 inch "grace", but if the horse is found to be 2" or 3" or more over 38",

bye bye steward's card. For that matter, if a steward at a show measures in a horse--whether he allows stretching, pushing down on the back, long hair left to the lowest point of the back to make a "fake" last mane hair--and if that horse is then protested and measures over, that steward ought to be fined as well.

If the possibility of a fine and/or losing his card isn't enough to convince a steward to be accurate at measuring, then perhaps it would help to have AMHR officials back him up, so that he feels less pressured to give in to the exhibitors' wishes and demands. A steward might be afraid of being sued if he measures a horse honestly & takes away its papers for being over. AMHR needs to stand behind that steward. If the steward is doing his job and is upholding the rules of AMHR, then if a horse owner wants to take on that steward, the horse owner should also have to take on AMHR. Right now, I don't think it works that way.

 

[OhHorsePee]

What if an individual not affiliated with AMHR/ASPC is brought in to do the Nationals/Congress measuring? That way it is taken off of the stewards back. Could you imagine what that job has to be like? Shewy! I could see where it would not be an easy position for them at all!

 

[midnight star stables]

"We too have been striving for "the smallest example of the perfect full sized horse" and if I were to be asked for the "look" I would say "Arabian" as well.

I have to say I love the movement of the hackney and wouldn't mind that action in the little horses on our farm." Genie

You could always breed for Arabian type Miniatures like these:

I'm going to step in here for Milo. Now given that they may be shod differently, there are Mordern shetlands showing as miniatures.. Weather they are 38" or not.

Again I love miniature and shetlands and I feel a mixture of the two is nice. I'd preffer that the AMHR/ASPC horses were under 38" but even if they are not, crossed with smaller horses, they Will better our breed - in time.

BTW

Minimor and Leeana!

 

[mininik]

Minimor, please see where I edited my post to say "not protesting" before you posted. I'm sorry you had to waste time replying to something that wasn't what I meant. Sometimes my laptop likes to eat important little words like that.

 

[Minimor]

Ah, that makes more sense that way!

I'd agree that if an exhibitor doesn't protest a horse that he knows is over 38" then he shouldn't complain about that horse being shown. But, I maintain that the stewards should do their best to measure accurately and honestly and not give into pressure from owners to do otherwise! and there should be repercussions for them if they do cave in and go along with the demands of owners who don't want an honest measurement.

 

[shelly]

I think the question was what is YOUR standard of perfection.

Just asking people what their vision of the perfect miniature

horse is. This is mine...

Araby type head with big eyes and little in tipping ears

moderate length of neck with a nice arch in it

short strong back

level croup with high set tail, carried in a pretty flagging

arch when animated

smooth body with some substance

straight legs with good bone and well shaped hooves

Thats what the mini of my dreams looks like!

DITTO-DITTO-DITTO

HE IS FINE!!!