Who else gets tired....

[Riverdance]

This Topic Really P--sses me off. I usually bite my tongue but, I have had it with this topic. For you to say that all professional photos are doctored, is simply slander. That is not true. I find it funny that over the years, you, the person that started this topic, have used many professional photos of your horses on your website, taken by one of the top photographers in the industry, and sure wasn't a problem then. I am also tired of seeing one farm advertise on the sales board complaining about professional photos and professional photographers "slapping their name under the horses nose". Well guess what, a photo is property, physical and intillectual, and it is that phototographers right to place their name or copyright mark on that photo. But again, that person that complains about it on the sales board has used professional photos for years on their website. A member of that persons family has always slapped their name on the photos they took and has made a living using profession photos for add design. Sure does seem two faced to me.

Funny, but I do not use a professional photographer. So thank you for your complement, since I am the one who takes all of the pictures of my horses. Only one stallion did Liz take a photo of of mine, and he was with his breeder at the time. Never said he was doctored, or that she did. Another couple of stallions I bought and got some small shots of them from the people I bought them from, but then, I posted another picture of them that I took myself so that people could see what they look like now. Beyond their professional shot.

It is interesting though to see so many of you get fired up because you read into what is written. I never said all professionals doctor shots, though I believe that most fix the top line of their shots and many clean up the pictures with air brushing. (If you saw before and after pictures of models in magazines you would be really surprised how different they look). I said that most of the shots I have gotten have been doctored. Some so ridicules as to make the horse look deformed.

I am not asking people to take very hairy shots of their horses. Since I lived in Minnesota for so many years, I for one, know just how impossible it is to see conformation through a Minnesota Miniature horses coat. But if one is asking for other shots in the summer and early fall and get refused, I am not going to look any further at the horse.

It is just frustrating when one has a limited budget and can not take the time to "fly out" to see a horse. I live alone and I would have to hire someone to take care of the farm. I would rather put the money into the stallion I am looking for, than farm sitting, hotels and airline tickets. A video would be great, but many people will not do that. I get the response that the professional shots will be all I get to see.

I do not mind driving to see a horse if I can do it in a day. But how many of us have to rely on pictures when we buy horses? How many of us can afford to fly to see one? I have bought horses for as much as $15,000 to $20,000 on a photo, in the past, when the economy was good. Have I been disappointed, heck yes. That is why I want some other shots to see if the throat latch is really that thin. or if the top line is really that flat, tail set that high. I want to see bites, front and rear leg shots, heck even shots of two testicles.

So, all of you who were quick to attack me, get off your high horses. I would love to be able to afford professional shots, but I would also be willing to take shots of them myself. They may not be as great as the professional shots, but one can still see the bite, front and back legs, throat latch, top line and high tail set..

 

[disneyhorse]

I am so tired of looking at horses who have had professional shots, they look fantastic. Nice high topline, thin throat latch, long legs, lots of neck... and then you see the horse in real life and wonder if they changed horses on you?

Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse.

In bold above, you just said "I never said all professionals doctor shots" and yet, you see above, your quote in the original post. You said "EVERY PROFESSIONAL SHOT IS DOCTORED."

This is what is getting people fired up. You are not simply saying "I am having trouble getting pasture shots from people selling horses, all I can get is professional photos which I feel do not always best represent what the horse looks like now." A LOT of us who sell horses are willing to get photos... I know I go down to the barn every night and I am happy to measure the horse, get pictures of feet or bites, video of it working in a bitting rig or walking to/from the camera, video of whatever it is that the prospective buyer wants to see. So, I don't know where you are shopping or what exactly you are looking for, but obviously in the horse world you get ALL SORTS of sellers. This is why everyone always suggests to ensure that paperwork is in order, that the right questions are asked, and buyer beware.

Andrea

 

[rabbitsfizz]

To be fair to both sides, I can see how people would have misinterpreted the original statement, but I did not.

To me it was quite clear that RD meant that every photo she had received had been doctored- which is, as I said, misrepresentation (though impossible to prove)

I am not at all sure why people are getting so uptight about it, it annoys me when, time after time, I see pictures that have obviously, in one case ludicrously, doctored.

On another track, slightly, it is frustrating to see yearlings and older offered on their foal pictures, especially if these are posed pictures, but that, of course, is obvious and up to the individual poster.

I also think it was obvious- but it appears not to be, so maybe I am reading a different post- that it was not aimed at people who "tidy" pictures- ie remove lead reins or even put the horse in a better background- how often have you taken the perfect candid shot only to find a post growing out of the horses rump??

I had a lovely picture of a foal looking at a dump his mother had just done and my friend turned it into a patch of daisies- I do not think anyone is bothered by that....are they?

 

[Charlotte]

Having a professional photographer in the family and being a horse breeder myself, I can tell you it all comes down to the integrity of the horse owner and the photographer they choose...and I mean regarding ALTERING CONFORMATION of the horse photographed.

Little House (Liz Johnson) WILL NOT alter horse conformation and has even caught out horse owners who have photoshopped her photographs to alter conformation. Of course she then insists they remove those altered photographs from public view, but she can't stop them from sending an altered photograph to a prospective buyer. In this digital age anyone with a little computer skill can doctor their horse's conformation. This is the reason that every page of our web site has this statement on it:

**Horses offered by REFLECTIONS have had no medical procedures performed to alter conformation. Photographs have not been retouched to alter conformation.**

Now please understand that a professional photographer WILL make certain changes to photographs which include removing a dropped stallion, removing photo props, color adjustment, cropping and actions such as that which do not change the conformation of the horse but certainly make the photograph more attractive.

We have been accused of this photo of one of our 2011 colts being altered to improve conformation.

This is a picture I took of the same colt last month (October) No, I'm not a photographer, but I do think it's pretty obvious that the conformation in the pro picture is still there.

Bottom line.....know your seller and know their photographer.

 

[shelia]

I think the professionals are able to capture that moment in time when the horse looks awsome. The pictures are clear and the angle is just right. The angle and the moment may not show flaws the horse may have. Those are the pictures we hope for. i wish I could get professional pics of all of my horses. It does get people to take you more seriously when selling. Of course you will need to see more pics of every angle and recent pics to sell a horse. of course no horse looks like that all of the time. Bad pics can make a good horse look bad. the wrong angle can make a nice head look very large. They can twist around and make their legs look crooked or hocked when they are not. They can make their neck look short when it is not. If they are not tied they will surely stand on or near a pile of poop or the part of the fence or barn that they have recently been chewing on. Many seem to love to get dirty and muddy.

If someone is selling a horse I think they need to be prepared to provide recent accurate pics of it. It is a pain, but it needs to be done. If they do not, I would wonder what they are trying to hide and pass on that horse.

That pretty picture may have gotten my attention, but now let's see what that horse really looks like at all angles.

I know that horse isn't going to look like that professional pic all of the time. It shows me what the horse can look like at it's best.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I've bought many horses without going to see them; in most of those cases I bought the horse without seeing more than 3 or 4 average photos. I have never been disappointed in any of them; in pretty much every case the horse has turned out to be nicer than his photos showed. If I like a horse when I see a rather poor photo of him I know I'm going to like what I see when I see that horse out in my pasture. If I were to buy a horse based on an absolutely perfect pro photo, there's a very good chance that I'm going to be disappointed by what I see when I look out the window & see that horse out in the pasture.

Absolutely! I'm an amateur photographer and photoshopper (purely for my own enjoyment) and can tell you that what makes a good equine photographer is an understanding of angles and perspective. I can take an average horse with good points and bad points like my own Kody and either make him look really good or really terrible depending on how I pose him. Take photos of him off-balance and grumpy and he looks like he belongs in a dogfood can. Most the time he just looks average. Get a GOOD photo of him from a flattering angle and he looks awesome!! Most horses are like him and while that professional shot may be awesome, someone with an experienced eye can still see that there may be problems by what wasn't shot and will ask for candid pictures of those angles. But take a good horse like Mingus or Turbo and even in a bad shot from a horrible angle, you can still see the length of leg, elegant neck set, etc. It may be a terrible shot but you can still tell there's something there worth looking at. Those are the horses that those who are looking for National Champions and good breeding stock should be searching for...the ones who stand out even in bad pictures.

I've been to several Liz shoots and can tell you those amazing-looking necks were not retouched. They didn't need to be- the photographer was on the ground, shooting up and back at the horse, with a skunk tail or mirror or other interesting object causing the horse to telescope its neck out to the furthest anatomically-possible extent, and then she snapped the photo at exactly the right moment. OF COURSE it looks nine miles long!! Does it look like that all the time? No. But was it photo-shopped? No. Anyone buying horses off professional photos needs to be experienced enough to tell how much is the photo and how much is the horse. The best photographers are the ones that don't NEED photoshop to make the horse look fabulous. That's their job and they're very good at it!

I talked to someone in the UK when I visited in 2010 and they were telling me about a friend who had imported a famous stallion from the U.S. and how horrified they had been when the horse walked off the plane and was nothing like his pictures. I shook my head but at the same time I wasn't surprised. I'd seen the professional photos of the horse and it was obvious to me that he needed that sort of glamour shot to look good- he was thick, short-necked, and generally rather plain. But for someone in another country who wasn't used to that sort of pro photo it wasn't obvious at all and they were now stuck with a horse they had gone to tremendous expense to import and wouldn't be able to sell in person for half what they paid.

So to sum it up, I agree that buying a horse off strictly pro (or pro-quality) photos is probably a very poor idea but don't believe it's a crime to try and show your horse off to its best advantage. Those sort of photos are wonderful but you have to remember they only capture a single moment in time when the horse was at its absolute best. I want to see the same horse I'm going to see in my own pasture every day; they spend a lot more time muddy and fuzzy around here than they do in show shape!

Leia

 

[Magic]

"Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse."

Above is what the original poster said Jane and if that doesn't mean that "every pro shot is doctored" I am not sure what she was trying to say???......................................................................

............................

I have had people come to my farm and ask "where is so and so", while they are standing right in front of them and that is after seeing them in the flesh at a show and again in my paddock.

I get that too, but it's the other way around-- my horses almost always look so much better in person than they do in their pictures, even my daughter who does my website has had a hard time recognizing some of the horses. She isn't the only one who has commented on it. Obviously I need better pictures, *embarrassed* but I don't mind that people like my horses even better in person. Never have I had any photos altered, nor would I, it seems extremely unethical to the extreme. JMO.

 

[tagalong]

Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored.

Oh really?? Wow.

So very WRONG. With all due respect, I think you were the one "on your high horse" making such statements...

NONE of the professional pictures (Liz, Jay Goss) that have been taken here over the years have been doctored or photoshopped in any way... NONE of them. With the possible exception of maybe takingout a leadline or weeds etc. Nothing structural was touched. No toplines were messed with. The horses were exactly as shown. To be honest, I sort of resent that the idea that anyone would think they were doctored. Or suggest that they were in fact altered as they "knew better"...

The main stallion here actually looks better in person - better than his "pro" shots, even.

We recently sold a sweet, small red filly who looked nothing like her pro picture seeing as she was fatter and in her winter woolies... but her happy new owner saw past the hair and the tummy and was thrilled with her new girl....

... as she was exactly what we advertised her as being.

 

[Riverdance]

To be fair to both sides, I can see how people would have misinterpreted the original statement, but I did not.

To me it was quite clear that RD meant that every photo she had received had been doctored- which is, as I said, misrepresentation (though impossible to prove)

I am not at all sure why people are getting so uptight about it, it annoys me when, time after time, I see pictures that have obviously, in one case ludicrously, doctored.

On another track, slightly, it is frustrating to see yearlings and older offered on their foal pictures, especially if these are posed pictures, but that, of course, is obvious and up to the individual poster.

I also think it was obvious- but it appears not to be, so maybe I am reading a different post- that it was not aimed at people who "tidy" pictures- ie remove lead reins or even put the horse in a better background- how often have you taken the perfect candid shot only to find a post growing out of the horses rump??

I had a lovely picture of a foal looking at a dump his mother had just done and my friend turned it into a patch of daisies- I do not think anyone is bothered by that....are they?

Thank you RF...Every picture of a colt or stallion I was interested in whether on line or pictures sent to me was doctored. Some, only their top line, but still doctored. Some from well known photographers. When one blows the picture up to a very large size, one can see the doctored area. I do not mind photos where leads are taken out, or minor background items, but I do when the halter is taken out too. I want to see the true top line, not one that has had the top of the hip taken off to look like he has a flat croup and high tail set. Nor do I want to see one where the throat latch has been tightened. The top line and tail set can not be conditioned...it is a horses true conformation and can only be changed in a photo. Heck, there is one stallion in the World Book that looks deformed because they took off so much of the hip to give a flat back and a high tail set. All of you who are flaming me, take a look again at many of the professional photos,(blow them up and look) then take a look at the same horse taken at a later time by its owner where the hip is rounded and the tail set is lowered. I want to see the true tail set and the true top line. I have seen photos of horses taken at the World Show who have won, then seen them again when the owners took the pictures and the top line is not flat , the hip is rounded and it has a lower tail set. Sometimes only a little bit has been taken off, but it still has been taken off. I am not a newby here and was in dogs for over 40 years where it can be harder to see conformation than in the Mini. But conformation is conformation and I know what I want for my mares. I also bred and showed Morgans for over 10 years, the photographers took off part of the hip on them too if the top line was not flat in the shot.

I am not trashing all of you who have taken offense to my letting off steam, nor am I saying your horses pictures have been doctored. I am just saying that as a buyer, I am tired of the pictures I have seen of stallions or colts I am interested in buying having doctored pictures. If you do not want to take your own pictures for someone and want to rely on only your professional shots, good for you, but I as a buyer will not be buying them and I am sure there are many out there who feel like me.

Now stop acting like I am talking about you. I was letting off steam and making a comment that I am sure many people have felt.

 

[tagalong]

I am not trashing all of you who have taken offense to my letting off steam, nor am I saying your horses pictures have been doctored. I am just saying that as a buyer, I am tired of the pictures I have seen of stallions or colts I am interested in buying having doctored pictures. If you do not want to take your own pictures for someone and want to rely on only your professional shots, good for you, but I as a buyer will not be buying them and I am sure there are many out there who feel like me.

Now stop acting like I am talking about you. I was letting off steam and making a comment that I am sure many people have felt.

Well, the way you have chosen to come across here is to make sweeping generalizations, condescend, condemn and then tell those of us who had concerns to "stop" it? Mmmmkay.

Maybe we were just "letting off steam" and making comments that I am sure many people felt.

The reason many toplines are different on photos that are NOT altered is that the horse is stood up just right and tight and shot from the right angle... no fraud there. And a casual, non-set up pasture shot will naturally not look the same. It's not rocket science.

We have taken casual pics of our horses when asked - but to be honest that has only happened twice in ten years. People know that they get what they see... whether it is a pro pic or not.

And even the pro pics of the retired ex-showhorse broodmares show them for exactly what they are - without professional handlers standing them up... without being in show shape... and the quality still shines through.

 

[Minimor]

"The top line and tail set can not be conditioned...it is a horses true conformation and can only be changed in a photo."

Wow. Apparently you have never watched Arabs show? You have never crunched a croup in you life, never sat a horse back, brought it's head up and then made it reach... Even some relatively crappy toplines can get flat enough for good pictures. Stallion's particularly are easy - heck - even horrible butted ones will flatten out quite a bit when teasing a mare! The right photo angle with the near foot behind the far foot with the hip dropped a touch and you can do wonders with a topline in a photo - no editing needed!
Morgans, Arabs, Shetlands, Minis--some of them actually do have very flat toplines when posed 'just so' and they are on form & showing their hearts out. Yes, when you see the horse walk out his rump will appear more rounded with the tail lower, particularly at a certain point in his stride and from a certain angle. By the same token, you can take a horse with a very level topline & totally ruin that topline by posing the horse wrong & taking the photo from the wrong angle!

And yes, toplines can be conditioned. A somewhat weak rear end can be muscled up with the right kind of work--muscle the horse up just right & his croup will fill in between dock and point of hip and will appear more level than it was previously. You won't get that kind of muscling and improvement if the horse is just scurrying around the round pen, but give him some honest to goodness classical dressage work & it most certainly does make a difference.

 

[HGFarm]

I hear you on the advertising with only professional photos... I like seeing home photos with what the horse looks like every day. Then I know that when they are show groomed, they will look even nicer. I just want to see what to expect with average photos. A professional photo or two is ok, but I like several just every day at home pics.

I dont agree with the comment that every professional photo is doctored. I have a couple of photos on my site that were taken at a show, and they were not touched- what you see is what you get. I have seen many other nice photos as well taken.

I have had the same experience at Nationals though- looking at the pro photos hanging on the stall and seeing something ENTIRELY different in the stall. A couple I only recognized by their distinct markings that matched the photo!

 

[Riverdance]

Wow. Apparently you have never watched Arabs show? You have never crunched a croup in you life, never sat a horse back, brought it's head up and then made it reach... Even some relatively crappy toplines can get flat enough for good pictures. Stallion's particularly are easy - heck - even horrible butted ones will flatten out quite a bit when teasing a mare! The right photo angle with the near foot behind the far foot with the hip dropped a touch and you can do wonders with a topline in a photo - no editing needed!

Morgans, Arabs, Shetlands, Minis--some of them actually do have very flat toplines when posed 'just so' and they are on form & showing their hearts out. Yes, when you see the horse walk out his rump will appear more rounded with the tail lower, particularly at a certain point in his stride and from a certain angle. By the same token, you can take a horse with a very level topline & totally ruin that topline by posing the horse wrong & taking the photo from the wrong angle!

And yes, toplines can be conditioned. A somewhat weak rear end can be muscled up with the right kind of work--muscle the horse up just right & his croup will fill in between dock and point of hip and will appear more level than it was previously. You won't get that kind of muscling and improvement if the horse is just scurrying around the round pen, but give him some honest to goodness classical dressage work & it most certainly does make a difference.

Yes I know that if one parks a horse out far enough you can get a flat top line (remember I said I bred and showed Morgan's for over 10 years, also had National winners), but Mini's are not supposed to be parked out. I do not even look at the ones who are parked out. I am not looking for a horse that has to be pushed into that top line and many are not pushed into it, just corrected by the photographer. I own a stallion who has a natural flat croup and high tail set, even when he is not showing his heart out. I want to continue with natural top Line.

I also know that with some certain conditioning one can fill out the rear some, but I am looking for the natural look, not one that has been worked to get the illusion or one that has been doctored. In morgans, Arabians and Saddlebreds tails are cut to give a higher lift, but it does not mean that it is something I would want to do. One can also ginger a horse to appear to get a higher tail set for a video.

Again, I am talking about my looking for a stallion and not what all of you have as far as professional photos. I will say it again, I want regular photos too. I have an idea. Get some professional shots and at the same time, while the horse is still clipped clean and in show condition. Take some of your own shots. Then you have them to show to prospective buyers too. Again I am saying, I have been dealing with some sellers that will only give me the professional shots and not other shots. I want to see the true horse. I do not think I am asking too much when I am willing to spend what it takes to get a great colt or stallion.

 

[Katiean]

They sure can change the looks of a horse. Kind of like "Glamor Shots" for people and if you want you can go into a recording studio and make a record that "FIXES" your crummy voice. It is all fake. I never trust the profesional photos. I ask for current out of the pasture pictures.

They sure can change the looks of a horse. Kind of like "Glamor Shots" for people and if you want you can go into a recording studio and make a record that "FIXES" your crummy voice. It is all fake. I never trust the profesional photos. I ask for current out of the pasture pictures.

 

[Minimor]

Arabs are not supposed to be parked out either, and yet they can still be posed to flatten their topline even more.

As far as wanting traits that are 'bred in' and not 'made'--I agree that is the the desirable thing. But you must remember that whether it is a professional photo or just a plain old at home photo taken by the owner, if that horse has been showing at the time the photos are taken it is entirely possible that the at home photos will show the horse at his peak of conditioning. You won't know how much work that horse has been doing to be in the shape that he is in, you won't know how much his neck has been sweated.

I've already agreed that it is best not to buy strictly from professional photos, but only posted above to point out it is ludicrous to state that all professional photos have been doctored. And you did say ALL--you didn't say all the photos you have received have been doctored, you said in your initial post that all professional photos are enhanced to improve the look of the horse.

 

[Riverdance]

I've already agreed that it is best not to buy strictly from professional photos, but only posted above to point out it is ludicrous to state that all professional photos have been doctored. And you did say ALL--you didn't say all the photos you have received have been doctored, you said in your initial post that all professional photos are enhanced to improve the look of the horse.

:BeatDeadHorse

Next time I will remember to read what I wrote before posted. I was annoyed with someone who had a really nice colt for sale, but would not send me any other pictures except for two professional shots that looked doctored. So lets all drop this subject.

 

[disneyhorse]

Funny, but I do not use a professional photographer. So thank you for your complement, since I am the one who takes all of the pictures of my horses. Only one stallion did Liz take a photo of of mine, and he was with his breeder at the time. Never said he was doctored, or that she did. Another couple of stallions I bought and got some small shots of them from the people I bought them from, but then, I posted another picture of them that I took myself so that people could see what they look like now. Beyond their professional shot.

So, all of you who were quick to attack me, get off your high horses. I would love to be able to afford professional shots, but I would also be willing to take shots of them myself. They may not be as great as the professional shots, but one can still see the bite, front and back legs, throat latch, top line and high tail set..

I am confused... at least HALF of the photos on your website have a professional photographer's stamp on them... Washburn, Liz, Schatzberg...

All but one photo on your "Driving Horses for Sale" page is by a professional photographer... and all but two photos on your "Stallions for Sale" page are by professional photographers... so how are you "the one who takes all of the pictures of your horses" ? I think it's these conflicting blanket statements that is confusing everyone.

No one denies that some photos are touched up. The degree of photoshopping really depends. There are a couple horses on your website that are pictured completely cut out from the background and photoshopped onto a flat background... that is much more difficult to tell conformation than one in a natural setting. So you, yourself extensively are using photoshopped images and professional images... so why is it so bad if others do, too?

Andrea

 

[lucky seven]

I agree this has gone on long enough, but I think some of the "doctored" shots could be oil rubbed on the horse to make it shinier and eye liner and darkener around the muzzle to highlight a very pretty face.

 

[wildhorses]

I think this is good debate and the reason why we have open forums. I hope that this topic doesn't get "locked" like so many other topics because it's a little bit heated. Plenty of people advertise on this website with professional photos and plenty with non-professional photos. Those that choose to use professional photos have a right to defend themselves and their photos, as do those who use non-professional photos. Just my two cents...again.

 

[Joanne]

A lot of these issues could be resolved with a good video of the horse being considered.

A video can tell us about the movement of the horse, which cannot be told in a photo. It is wonderful to have professional photos on our website if we choose to, but a video in addition allows people to see the horse's action as well.

Take a video when the horse is finished being photographed so people see the entire package.

Not everyone can see a horse in person, the video allows us to see the horse in 3D.