Who else gets tired....

[ruffian]

No not all pro photos are doctored. But some are, and when I can go through the mini mags, and pick the photographer out from the pictures WITHOUT looking at the signature, it's going too far.

 

[sedeh]

I love the professional shots I have of my horses....and none of them have been doctored. Some are performance pics and many different photographers. I love my "Liz" pics also. It also depends on how old the horse was when pictures were taken! I went back to look at a stallion that I was sure I would buy based on his photos but didn't really like him in person. Of course the picture was his yearling photo and when I saw him he was a chunky 5 yo.

And it also depends what time of year you're looking. Hard to tell what they look like in their winter woolies! Okay...I do have to stipulate...sometimes the pictures are "doctored" but only by removing lead lines!

 

[Tab]

It is best to see the horse honestly represented in casual photos. Real life, straight out of the pasture. I love the photos of a few top stallions, they look good without special measures. You want to represent reality as much as possible so that when people come to visit they won't be disappointed. Pro photos are great if you keep your horse in show shape most of the time. It is cold here, and so horses only look peak about 3 months out of the year (once they shed or are clipped). I suppose that could come as a shock if professional photos are used the most. Doctored photos are a-ok if it is removing a lead rope, weeds, stray hairs, or items in the background. Altering the horse itself is not cool, and is it really the norm?

 

[Carolyn R]

I sympathize with the photo scenario. In the past when I was building my breeding herd, I grew very tired of owners refusing to send recent or somewhat recent shots of the horses. No you can't see what is under the coat, but you can see if they look groomed, if they are on a flat surface you can get a glimpse of their feet, the surroundings they are in, not to mention if they even remotely represent their pro photos. I found it all very frustrating.

When I sold off my breeding stock, I went above and beyond snapping shots, it didn't matter if the shots were from a week before, someone wanted more, off I went to take more. I appreciate looking at a horse that is spit shined and polished to the nines, I appreciate what goes into that, but it is nice to see and unaltered photo of a horse in the off season.

 

[Minimor]

I would never buy a Mini from a pro photo--not even an unretouched one. The Liz photos, for instance, are lovely and show the horses off to their absolute best advantage. But, that still isn't what that horse looks like every day--not in most cases--that photo is just a moment in time where the photographer has gotten the absolute best post out of the horse. I like to see what the horse looks like on an average day, when he's just standing around in the pasture, posed in a natural stance. I want to see just average photos.

I've bought many horses without going to see them; in most of those cases I bought the horse without seeing more than 3 or 4 average photos. I have never been disappointed in any of them; in pretty much every case the horse has turned out to be nicer than his photos showed. If I like a horse when I see a rather poor photo of him I know I'm going to like what I see when I see that horse out in my pasture. If I were to buy a horse based on an absolutely perfect pro photo, there's a very good chance that I'm going to be disappointed by what I see when I look out the window & see that horse out in the pasture.

Do some seriously lengthen necks on the horses in their photos?? I haven't seen any of those--either I haven't paid attention or I haven't been looking at the right photos.

 

[Jean_B]

Such a Carte Blanche "all are doctored" statement is simply ludicrous. Every photo on my website that was professionally taken - I can attest without any hesitation and would even take a lie-detector test...they are NOT doctored, and I know for a fact that Jodie would have smacked me up side the head, got in her vehicle and left if I had even hinted that she should do such a thing. As you said, if you are leary of pro photos, ask for pasture pics. And if they don't want to take any more, that's their choice...now it's up to you whether or not to jump in your car and check the horse out in person or walk away.

Me? I'm not going to waste my time taking additional pictures because that's the way my horses looked...and if you aren't happy with that, you can go elsewhere. It works both ways.

And yeah, I'm BAAACCCKKK! Watch for the Second Edition announcement.

 

[Wings]

Such a Carte Blanche "all are doctored" statement is simply ludicrous. Every photo on my website that was professionally taken - I can attest without any hesitation and would even take a lie-detector test...they are NOT doctored, and I know for a fact that Jodie would have smacked me up side the head, got in her vehicle and left if I had even hinted that she should do such a thing. As you said, if you are leary of pro photos, ask for pasture pics. And if they don't want to take any more, that's their choice...now it's up to you whether or not to jump in your car and check the horse out in person or walk away.

Me? I'm not going to waste my time taking additional pictures because that's the way my horses looked...and if you aren't happy with that, you can go elsewhere. It works both ways.

And yeah, I'm BAAACCCKKK! Watch for the Second Edition announcement.

I have a nice collection of show photos for those who have shown and paddocks shots of those horses as well. Just paddock shots of broodies and foals that I'm even happy to use for advertising. But quite frankly I'd be hesitant in the middle of winter to snap new paddock shots as my nice horses vanish under a pile of winter hair and mud, and I'm not going to bathe them just for a new set of photos that will not do them justice and for a person who may or may not purchase.

I have bought a few sight unseen, I saw enough in the photos to pick qualities I liked the look of and they where at low enough prices that it wouldn't matter. But anything high priced has always been inspected in person, nothing else will give you quite the same experience as a hands on, in person expection. Plus you get to meet the seller face to face, see the conditions the horse has lived in and many other things that an online purchase does not afford you.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am not sure it was the intention of the OP to suggest that every single pro picture in the whole world is doctored- I took it to mean that every picture she had been sent or had looked at had been- I would be interested to hear her input on this??

 

[wildhorses]

This Topic Really P--sses me off. I usually bite my tongue but, I have had it with this topic. For you to say that all professional photos are doctored, is simply slander. That is not true. I find it funny that over the years, you, the person that started this topic, have used many professional photos of your horses on your website, taken by one of the top photographers in the industry, and sure wasn't a problem then. I am also tired of seeing one farm advertise on the sales board complaining about professional photos and professional photographers "slapping their name under the horses nose". Well guess what, a photo is property, physical and intillectual, and it is that phototographers right to place their name or copyright mark on that photo. But again, that person that complains about it on the sales board has used professional photos for years on their website. A member of that persons family has always slapped their name on the photos they took and has made a living using profession photos for add design. Sure does seem two faced to me.

I have had professional photos taken by 3 of the top equine photographers in the industry over the years. When I have had the Liz photos taken on several occasions, more than 20 horses were photographed that same day, and I had printed proofs IN MY HANDS in less than 24 hours, EVERY SINGLE TIME. When I had horses photographed by the famous Stuart Vesty, I had a CD of my proofs IN MY HANDS in less than 1 hour after he unloaded his camera onto his computer. The third professional photographer took a bit longer as he had to catch a plane right after finishing with my horses, but had the photo proofs in my possession in less than 72 hours, and again, more than 30 horses were photographed in less than 2 days during that shoot.

Some of us have spent THOUSANDS of $$$$$$$$$$ to get beautiful, and professional photos taken of our horses, to represent them at their very best, to capture the look that an average Joe can not capture, to have a representation of what this horse has looked like and will never look like again once out of show shape, had several foals, etc. I think it's very unfair for people to come on here and make false accusations against photographers, directly or indirectly. Because of allegations like this, people discredit all of our professional photos, the assume every professional photo is photoshopped. It makes all of the HARD WORK and $$$$ go down the drain. If you want to post pictures of your hairy animal standing in mud with it's head hanging down and ears pinned back on your website, then good for you, that is your decision. But don't criticize or make false accusations against those of us that want to respresent our animals better than that.

For the past several years, I have been taking my own photos. I took some photography classes at my local community college, I invested in a good DSLR camera and quality lens, and I started taking my own photos. Now, people use that against me. I take nice photos and they say they look "too professional". It comes back to this mindset that "all photos are altered". The only photo editing I have ever done is Crop a photo, brighten or darken because I didn't get the exposure right, and removed a prop with an eraser tool. I am not a professional, have never claimed to be, have never charged a dime for any of my photos I have ever taken, but yet, because I take nice photos and try to represent my horses at their very best, it is held against me, and it costs me sales. And yes, people are disappointed when you send them "pasture pictures" because the horse will never look the same. They aren't clipped up and bathed, they don't have a pretty halter on, depending on where you live, they might be a wooly mamoth. I have never refused to send additional plain jane photos to people interested in horses.

Now, are there some professional photographers out there that can doctor horse photos, Yes. Are there some out there that are very good at it, Yes. Are there photoshop tricks that can make horses look better, sure there are. I know of a couple of Arab photographers that will take 5 different photos of a horse and paste it all together to form "the perfect picture". I am not denying that it happens, as I know it does. But here is the point that I want to make to all of you skeptics out there. I have taken several photo editing courses and design courses. Things can be done in photoshop, however they are SOOOOOOOOOOO time consuming that most people would NEVER mess with it. This is why I made the point I did earlier. If X photographer was going to alter my photographs and proofs, that would require (20 horses x average of 40 pictures per horse) 800 photos to be altered...in less than 24 hours. SIMPLY DOESN"T HAPPEN. They are not machines, they are humans. Not with the 3 photographers I have used. They charge $45.00-$60.00 per hour to remove objects from photos that you purchase. Do you really think that they are doing it to my proofs...to 800 photos...AND THE PHOTOS I HAVE PURCHASED HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IDENTICAL TO MY PROOFS. I have always stuggled to afford the $250.00 per horse to photograph, plus the $45.00-90.00 per photo for the images I purchased...do you really think I can afford to or would pay someone to falsify my photos? I don't think so! Nor would I want to. NOR HAS ANY PHOTOGRAPHER EVER OFFERED TO. I once asked one of them if there was anything they could do for the tooth bumps on one of my horses, and I got an answer that would suprise most of you....THE ANSWER WAS NO, I wont do ANYTHING to alter this horses confirmation.

Like Jean_B said, I stand behind every photo of my horse and would take a lie detector test to prove it. You hire a professional because of what they can do and what their knowledge is. The key to great horse photos is knowing confirmation of a horse, knowing the angles that best compliment the horse, and how to use the camera and lens to their best ability, and sometimes a lot of luck.

I am sorry, but I think it's time someone stands up for those of us that use or have used professional photographers and get a bad rap for it. If that offends people I guess I really don't care. I have bit my tongue long enough. Fire away.

 

[MiLo Minis]

"Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse."

Above is what the original poster said Jane and if that doesn't mean that "every pro shot is doctored" I am not sure what she was trying to say???

I am a graphic artist and as such know that all manner of things can be altered in a photo and it isn't necessarily the pro photog that does it as photo altering programs are available to anyone. I refuse to alter anything in a photo used to advertise a horse that changes it's true conformation. I will remove leadropes and halters and background distractions but not the horse's conformation. I consider that false advertising which is against the law and I won't be party to it BUT I do have the capability of doing so and therefore know that there are others that will and have altered conformation in a photo and they don't necessarily have to be professional photos.

The only real method of deciding whether you like a horse, or not, is to see the horse in the flesh.

I also know that even with a pro shot that is not altered the horse may look completely different from that same horse out in the pasture or stall. When I look out my window I do not see the horses as looking the same as they do in the show ring all fitted, conditioned, clipped, bathed, groomed and made up for show. I have had people come to my farm and ask "where is so and so", while they are standing right in front of them and that is after seeing them in the flesh at a show and again in my paddock.

 

[~Lisa~]

I am sorry not every professional shot is doctored in fact it is silly to think so.

The reality is when a professional is shooting horses are presented at their best. It is no different then watching a horse walk into the show ring looking at it in the warm up and thinking mediocre.. then seeing it set up in the ring having a gret time showing, being presented by a handler who knows how to make it look its best and being totally wowed. It is not about being doctored it is about knowing how to get the best look for the moment.

That said it is alway best to get set up pictures and pictures of the horse just hanging out in it's stall or turn out

 

[ohmt]

Wildhorses-i LOVE professional pictures and I hope that one day I can afford to have some taken of my horses. You are right, photography is ART and the picture taken deserves the photographers name on it, just like a painting would have its painter's signature on it.

Now, as much as I love to look at the beautiful pro pictures, I would never buy a horse based solely on them. I ask for both sides of the horse standing square, front, back, teeth, hooves, and a movement shot. Must be recent. Don't advertise your horse for sale if you can not provide these pictures, simple as that. I have never had a person contact me about horses without asking for these same pictures. If I have a horse listed for sale, then I have them available. I always find it strange when I contact someone about a horse they have for sale and they won't send me recent pictures. Very shady, I don't care what your reasoning is. I don't like doing winter fuzzy pictures either people, but if i'm going to buy a horse I want at least one so I can see the horse isn't starving to death and I would hope the other pictures were taken the same summer/fall. We are now in a time where most people buy sight unseen via the internet. As a seller, I am more than willing to accommodate. As a buyer, if you're not, i'm on to the next horse. Too many good deals these days to mess around.

Also, I know that most pictures are not doctored (minus taking out leads or props, etc), but I have seen a couple that have been listed on the LB Saleboard. Easy to spot-very fuzzy around the doctored area. One was to pro pic doctored to make a foal's head look more refined I think. They are out there, but I find them easy to see.

 

[mdegner]

Amen WildHorses, Milo, Jean B and the others. Thought it a ridiculous statement to begin with, and a bit hypocritical. We all love good shots of our horses, and we expect our professional pics to show the very best of that horse. To say all professional photographers doctor and falsify their pictures, is like saying all lawyers chase ambulances, or all blondes are dumb, or all rich people are evil, or fill in the blank.

It's truly difficult to get good shots of your animals. We spend alot of time taking pics and out of 100, we might get 2 or 3 that are keepers. The really good photographers have an ability to capture the beauty of that animal, and I constantly find myself looking at the professional pics and learning from them. The angles, the lighting, the timing....

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.......

 

[ahrobertspony]

Professional photographers are PROFESSIONALS. It is in their best interest to capture the very, very best shot possible of the horse in front of them. Unless they do that, they cannot sell their wares. Selling their product is how professional photographers profit from the work they do.

I have handled hundreds of thousands of professional horse show photos over the time. I can tell you without hesitation that the majority of them unequivocally DO NOT contain the type of retouching that many here seem to assume. If you question that, simply go to a professional show photographer's site and look at the PROOFS. PROOFS are NOT retouched. Retouching a photo is a professional service, one that these individuals charge for as a part of the way they make their living. They are NOT going to retouch every photo you see. First, it's ridiculously time consuming. If you had any experience with this type of thing, you'd know that. Second, it's not profitable to retouch a photo you have no idea whether anyone will purchase or not. Therefore, you don't retouch until the order is paid and the retouching fee is paid. A professional's time is just too valuable to waste it and not be paid.

The MOST common professional retouching, frankly, is adding a ribbon, changing a sign title, removing a background or "fixing" ears.

The only general professional retouching services that a professional may make to the thousands of proofs you can see on a photography proofing site will be cropping (to center the content) and color correction. Other than that, frankly, they won't waste their time.

I didn't have the opportunity to work with Casey McBride. However, I can point to the work of Terry Young and Terri Washburn. These folks are masters ... I've seen thousands of pics be up for proofing in nearly no time at all (and CERTAINLY with no time for jacking w/ the photo) and been AMAZED by the content and what they captured.

There is a reason folks like this are PROFESSIONAL photographers.

Of course, the above is only based on having worked with some of the very best professional photographers in the business over the course of the last 16 years and having looked at EVERY SINGLE photo taken at AMHR Nationals and the ASPC/ASPR Congress from about 2006 through 2010. That is a mind-boggling number of RAW pics. In them, I saw some amazing, amazing un-retouched pics .... pics that looked exactly the same in the proof up just a scant few minutes after a class as they did when they came across in the final 8x10 form.

 

[Barbie]

I totally disagree with the statement that all professional pictures are altered. That is so not true.

I had pictures taken of my stallion while at Worlds and saw some of them right away. They were super in the camera and super when I received them. Yes, they are great - Chase was conditioned for Worlds, he was clipped, had makeup on and had a super handler to get the best out of him.

That same photographer and handler came to Florida a few weeks ago and photographed 20 or more horses in a day. Sandy was shooting lots of pics of each horse - she had 1000's of photos to go through and we still received our CD's quickly. All the horses photographed were clipped, show halters, some had breast collars, some were straight out of the pasture and clipped. All the photos are great. I have to say Sandy and James Walsh did a super job. My photos of the 3 horses I took over were not photoshopped, they just show my horses to their best advantage.

If someone is looking at one of my horses, I want good pics to show, but I also will not hesitate to walk out and take pictures and/or video to shohw what they look like today.

Barbie

 

[alongman]

We have had several professional photo shoots. The one thing that I chose when selecting a photographer was one that would take photos UNTIL we got the perfect picture WITHOUT any editing. What you see is what you get. We did spend hours taking pictures - often several hundred pictures, but maybe only selected one or two. It was well worth it! Also, when people shop from our pictures, they get to see hundreds of on-line pictures that were taken in order to get that one...

 

[Royal Crescent]

I don't believe that she meant every photo or every photographer alters photos. It is the frustration with those few that you can see evidence of possible altering and the refusal to submit new, unaltered shots. I also have seen the horses that she bought after being sent the pro shots and have seen the actual pictures. They were obviously altered. If it meant a sale or not, would you take new pics or a video?

 

[Riverdance]

I agree that many are doctored, but not all. The good news is that we as the general buying public are becoming wiser about this issue and more savvy oursevles with our own computer. So what I advise every person that contacts me about a horse for sale is to take the pictures I send them (I always make sure the DPI is high enough) and enlarge it to 400% and LOOK VERY CLOSELY at it. If a picture has been doctored, I don't care how good someone is at it, if you make the picture large enough and look at it closely (I personally go around the entire outline of the horse) you can see if something has been altered. Could someone still fool me? Maybe, but not very likely. But even if I feel the pro pictures haven't been doctored to change conformation (I don't mind the removal of a lead or something in the background) I still must have just general conformation shots - both sides, legs, head, bite and preferably a video. Folks, take a video and stop it at every frame...talk about getting to see the true horse!

I do that all the time now when I am looking at a horse I am interested in. All of you who say that the top line is not doctored, look again. It does not take much to put a straight line over the hip and make the horse look like it has a high tail set and a flat croup. Time and time again with most of the photographers, in Morgans, Arabians, Miniatures and probably many other horse breeds at least do this.

 

[Minimor]

I've seen it done some with Morgan photos--where MANY, MANY of the photos have ears fixed and gaping mouths closed. I haven't seen it so much on Miniature photos--certainly not ALL of the professional photos. I would say a few, nowhere near ALL of them

 

[kaprikorn]

My stallion has been "shot" by several different photographers. . .Sandy, Uwharrie and Pamela Walsh. None of them have been doctored. Also the win picas are unaltered. I have used them and changed the backgrounds sometimes for ads and such but have never done anything to the horse himself. He is what you see, don't have to enhance him. . .he is pretty already

But then again, I have seen some photos of other horses that I know have been "improved". Does make it hard if interested in buying one.