"Whoa!"

[poniesrule]

My 4 (almost 5) year old gelding, was driven extensively the last year, at shows, around town, in an arena, down the road etc. This is part of what helped make the decision to bring him home. We bought his harness & cart along with him as well. Because of this "lovely" weather we've been having, we haven't been able to drive much, but we've been doing a lot of ground work & ground driving. I feel it was important to go back a ways instead of just jumping into driving because we needed to establish that working relationship. I've combed through all of the posts here and LOVE the information I've gotten! When I was training saddle horses, brakes were always the first thing installed, so I felt I needed to be comfortable that he knew the meaning of "whoa". And he does. He plants his feet and stands still as a statue until I ask him to move again while in harness or just in hand, even without anything on him at all. So yesterday we did some ground driving (which he did very very well), then hooked him up, he did great.... until I got in the cart.

At first, he stood still, then I asked him to move out, and he acted like it was an everyday occurrence, I was soooo happy! And then I asked him to stop. He did a jig, started turning to the left (2 full circles) and then tried to back and started half rearing... I sat very still, repeating "whoa" and keeping my body balanced, as soon as he stood for a couple of seconds, I asked him to move out again for a ways (he relaxed and was down to business), then whoa again. Same story. We repeated this drama for about a half hour, and finally he stood for a whole 10 seconds, I got out of the cart, praised him, & unhitched. We moved on to something completely different. Now, yes, I am a first time driver (it's been a few years, so I feel I need to start over), no I don't have anyone around who can really help me, yes we were in an enclosed area. I know I need help (my not-horsey husband has volunteered but ehhhhh), so I am looking into finding someone local. To me he just seemed like he wanted to go. He really loves his job so maybe I should drive longer before asking whoa and stand? Any advice?

Like I said, he does fantastic before and after the drive. Maybe it was just the nice weather and the newness of the job? I want to be consistent, and I am not going to ignore this issue. I totally know what I would do if this was a saddle horse, but the cart throws me off!

Thanks in advance!

-Megan

 

[Sandi J.]

I am VERY new to driving...but after reading your post, did you ground drive him from behind the cart without being in it??? Will love to hear suggestions...Maybe the cart isn't balanced properly???

Sandi

 

[poniesrule]

Sorry, I should have added that I did. And that he was an angel. I think it was the added weight and the excitement of going for a drive? I actually have had my 7 year old daughter hold the shafts and tell me when it's too heavy when I shift my body position. Poor kid about dropped me a couple times, but I figured if it wasn't do-able for her, why would I ask the horse to do it?! I also should add that I check over the harness every time before use. And he wasn't chomping the bit or doing any tail swishing, just stomping & wanting to GO!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

This is what comes to mind for me;

First, you are a new driver, do you maintain contact while driving? I have found that many new drivers "throw their horses away" so to speak by driving with the reins slack and then when asking for the whoa, they pull and hold on. The horse is unaccustomed to the pressure and prances, backs and even rears in an attempt to escape it. I always keep light contact on my reins (some horses prefer more some less but they can always feel me there and 'hear' my intent through the reins, and when I ask for a whoa, I close my hands, allowing the horse to collect itself before asking for a complete stop and then when the horse stops I release the pressure. I still do not allow the reins to go completely slack but they are only tight enough to prevent slack not putting pressure on the bit unless the horse tries to walk off again. If they do (and some in the beginning don't understand and will try) I repeat the rein signals and verbal command and then release. Some take a bit to catch on but I will keep it up until they stand. You have the right idea in not asking for a long whoa, get compliance then ask them to walk on again. Also I never get in and drive off immediately, I want my horses to stand patiently while I adjust reins, clothing and whatever, maybe chat to someone nearby, before driving off. That will help prevent them for rushing off right away and help them to understand that standing hitched is normal too. what I would do, in the beginning, as long as you are in a confined space, is drive him at a good working trot. and a strong walk until he is breathing a bit harder and seems to be happier walking than trotting, then ask for a whoa, stand. If he still doesn't stand, remind him until you get at least a short stand that you can consider compliance and before he moves off ask him to walk on then work him again until he seems tired. If you drive him enough to tire him he will most likely be happy to stand and you will get a nice relaxed stand (in the beginning I will even aim for a lowered head and a hip shot stance). Let him stand harnessed while you sit in the cart for 3 minutes or so. Then, dismount, unhitch, tie him, groom him, pick his feet, and put him away. I think he may not understand he can relax with a driver in his cart so you need to help him understand that its okay.

 

[Foxhaven]

Yesterday Legend was antsy to go... he settled down after we went for a bit. I think round penning him first helps - helps him warm up too. I've noticed much more eagerness when I warm him up first... (I know... DUH.).

Good point about maintaining contact...

 

[poniesrule]

Reignmaker, I think I maintain that contact, but I'll be more conscious of it tonight & see how that goes. Great suggestion! I really think he's testing me as he is a dream for the gal who trained him. Of course, they have that relationship already as well, and she has the experience. He's such a cute, clever little turd, aren't they all?

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Is there anyway you can get a refresher from the old owner? If she could watch you drive him she may be able to quickly and easily see what the trouble is . And yes, they really are very clever. Not always to our benefit

, its isn't flattering to be outsmarted by a creature who we have to clean up after (that goes for children too lol)

 

[Minimor]

Are you certain your breaching is adjusted properly? If it is a bit loose, when he stops the cart will give him a pretty good whoomp in the rear end, and that can make him reluctant to stand.

In the same vein--before he was hitched, did you work him with the breech ing on, and put pressure on it when he stopped, to simulate the cart pushing on him?

If you aren't using breaching then it is possible the extra weight of you in the cart is putting extra pressure on the girth and saddle when he stops, and he finds that unfamiliar/uncomfortable/difficult.

 

[susanne]

.
While you're checking the breeching, check all other parts of his harness for good measure. My gelding, Mingus, is hypercritical of harness adjustments -- if anything is off or if something rubs or *might* rub in our lifetime, he'll let me know. If your boy is used to things being doe a certain way, a small change can make all the difference.

Even when horses have a great whoa, an occasional refresher course never hurts. Whoa him and make a phone call from the cart, eat a snack, drink a glass of wine -- whatever -- remind him that you are the one who decides when to move out.

 

[poniesrule]

I don't use breeching, not sure if he was ever driven with in, I'm emailing to find out, it's quite possible the additional pressure to the saddle isn't helping. Yesterday (after warming up) I got in and he stood still for a few seconds, then started his jiggy thing. I waited until he stood still & relaxed, then started visiting with my husband. Seriously, we sat there for 5-7 minutes, then I got out and we unhitched. May sound a little odd, but I want him to understand that because I am in the cart, it doesn't mean we are going to trot a marathon. I plan to repeat this & extend the time, but I thought for the first day that was pushing it. Then I harnessed my other guy (skipping all the ground work details for this post, but yes we did work before cart

), and he stood very well, so we drove a ways so I could focus on me. I know I have some "form" things to work on. It seems they both drift off to the left (not a lot, but like a car with a low tire) so we will be checking over the cart again. I felt that I maintained contact very well, & was trying to feel if I was pulling more on the left rein or not, and don't think I was, so sounds to my green ears like an issue with equipment. The weather is about to literally rain on my parade, so it'll be a couple days before I have another chance to go out, but that gives me an opportunity to lock myself in my garage to clean and oil and check over all of the harness & the cart. Fortunately the "seller" is looking to come visit soon! I could haul down there, but I feel they need to see us in our new environment.

I think we all know what the real issue is.... green driver + smart horse lol. I'm learning, everyone has to start somewhere. I did find a gal who drives mini's closer to me, so hoping to establish a relationship there. Some days I feel I'm in over my head, but I really have a passion & am learning more every day.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I think you have very good instincts over all. Just taking the time to sit and visit then unhitching and being done is an excellent way to give your horse the idea that your being on board is not a signal to move off right away. You may find something wrong with your equipment to explain the drift but don't rule out the possibility it is you altogether , Sometimes it takes someone else to really see what is happening, I love clinics for that very reason, even after some years of driving I find that I can have small habits that create noticeable flaws in my horses performance. I'm thrilled to hear you will get a visit from his previous owner, she will be in a very good position to identify the cause of your problems, hopefully it will be something that is clear to her and quickly remedied

 

[Renolizzie]

I thought you did great thinking up a new way to approach your issues. Hitching him up and then not going anywhere and just sitting will help him learn to stand still and be patient!!!!

I had the same problem or something similar. I am a new driver [at least I was totally a new driver] but I kept at it, got on the mini website and worked it through. I worked Wiseguy on a lead and made sure he understood "Stand". That seemed to help me a lot in the cart. So now I can "Whoa" and then use "Stand".

 

[Silver City Heritage Farmstead]

Renolizzie, I had to do the same with Casper when he came here. He was 10, didn't have a good "whoa" at all. To him, it meant some more like "slow down" or "yield". Always wiggled around when tied, too. After 8 weeks of "whoa" always being a disagreement, to the point of escalating to needing to be shanked, I had to step back and look at the WHYS of the difficulties we were having.

After taking in to account what I knew of his history, I changed up his vocabulary. "Whoa" became "stand". It was ASTONISHING how quickly he learned a good, solid "stand"!! Within a week (5-10 minute sessions twice daily) he was ground-tying consistently. Ground-driving with distractions improved tremendously, as well as being hitched to work (think pulling sledges, branches, and tires) with a low angle of draft. He didn't blow-up so easily, as he knew "stand" meant "don't move your feet!"

It was ever so much easier on both of us to learn new vocabulary than to retrain! Kudos to you on the solution you're working with now!

 

[shorthorsemom]

I understand the green driver smart horse scenario. Also understand the contact comment. When I thought I had contact (like when I was riding horses) my driving trainer said my outside rein did not have contact on a turn. Took me quite a bit of time to get that concept and also because I have shoulder injuries and pain I am often not aware that my contact is not constant and my tendency to loosen one rein unaware was something my trainer picked up on. Nice to have somebody watch you drive and spot stuff you are probably unaware you are doing.. Because my smartie horse could feel this lack of contact he got wise and would use my turn and lack of contact for an opportunity to give me some tude.

He also was tough on the stand and mount like you described. My trainer taught me there is a whoa and a stand and these are two different commands and she made me work very hard on them because my boy did the jig side step and back up and gave me tude when I wanted him to whoa and stand. I was not allowed outside the training ring until we had mastered both the whoa and stand because she told me that a horse that doesn't have a good whoa or stand was very dangerous and the backing resistance and take off when I was barely butt down in the seat was dangerous too.

First we had to check teeth and harness fit, bit and hook up. I did eventually change my bit. For examples for harness issues causing resistance..., low or high tugs can make balance issues. If you don't have britching then that makes issues for going down hills and the saddle of the harness is essentially doing the holding of the cart. If your breast plate and adjustment is off it makes climbing hills more difficult. Any pinching anywhere and tie downs too tight can cause issues.

Anyway, if you don't have a trainer to check out your set up you can post photos here for help. Post front back and both sides and close ups. Folks can help more with visuals to see if you might have something in your hook up that might be causing issues. Former owner might be able to help too.

Also, this winter, I have done zero driving... footing is impossible and if I took my boy out and tried to drive him right now I am sure we would wreck. Should I think of venturing back into driving , my friend the trainer would be doing the first few drives. Smart horse and smart driver and my boy is putty in her hands and much more forgiving of my errors than when he is fresh and out of shape.

Ps, smart horses are smart enough to act up to tell you something is wrong. Whether it is something you are doing wrong, or harness or hook up or anything... your horse is communicating. There are sweet horses that really don't care if you don't have everything perfect... or guys like my boy that make a monkey out of me for not getting something right and are quite sensitive to minor adjustments. My boy is so sensitive that if I look hard right he can feel the slightest shift of my hands and body and he looks hard right too to see what I am looking at. I swear he can read my mind.

ps.. don't forget to check the teeth.

 

[poniesrule]

He is a smarty pants, I do know that he's just communicating that something isn't right. When he starts doing his jig, it's after we have been going and stop. He stands pretty darn still (maybe moves head and neck) when I get in. I really like the idea of "whoa" and "stand" as they should be two different commands. One the action of stopping, the other staying stopped. We will be working on that! As for the britching (breeching?) he has never been driven with it. And where we are you are hard pressed to find a hill... at all. Makes it great for driving smooth, bad for conditioning, ha! I will be working with him this year to get him used to it, but not until it's nicer and I can work more consistently. It's pretty nice (60) today, I will try to get pictures! And then I will try to get them uploaded (eeks!) but no guarantees, and it's supposed to dive back down to the 40's the rest of the week.

As for the contact, I think I'll start watching some driving videos & taking some of me driving him. I feel that I have good consistent contact with him at all times, much like riding my dressage horse, but maybe I'm not. It is a totally different feel! Great suggestion to have them watch (or myself).

The vet will be coming out the end of the month for "annual" check-ups and will be sure to check teeth. I have checked, and didn't notice anything, but never hurts to have a second opinion!

I really appreciate everyone's suggestions. Makes me feel a better to talk it over with my peers!

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

The idea of getting video of yourself and then watching is great! You will be surprised at what you see, I am always disappointed with my posture

as I tend to drop one shoulder or the hand (which also will change the amount of contact on that rein) and if my shoulders are square I want to slouch, its an on going struggle for me to overcome these habits. If you can watch yourself like you would watch someone else and then be even harder on your own mistakes it can help a lot IMO. On the subject of the commands, I have 3 different commands. Whoa means stop, Stand means be still and steady means slow down So if I am driving at a trot the horse hears "Steady" then "Whoa" then finally "Stand" If I want to slow from an extended trot to a collected trot I will say "steady" as well, or of course if the horse startles. I also use "walk", "trot", have a shushing sound to ask for extension and "canter" when they are experienced enough in harness to be comfortable at a canter. I use the verbal commands along with rein cues at home and in the show ring make the rein cues dominate so there is less chance of interfering with other driver's horse's responses.

 

[poniesrule]

Ok. I had a chance to watch a short clip of me driving. So funny, but when I'm driving my younger gelding, my posture is more relaxed & I hate to say... a touch sloppy. But he's a very honest horse. I say go, he says ok... I say jump in front of a train, he says sure. On the other hand, when I drive the older guy (the one I started this post on) I am iron fisted super tense. I think I expect him to act up a bit. So we've been working on hitching up, standing while I'm in the cart, then unhitching, which with the weather is about as much as I want to do anyways, brrr! Sunday I took them both out for a drive and WOW! They were wonderful. Like I figured, I was/am the problem! But at least I know what to feel for now. My body positioning, contact with them, and overall attitude really does play as big a part while driving as it does while riding. Hopefully I can get a longer video once the weather decides to stay consistent...

They both had a nice dental visit yesterday, the impatient one had virtually no problems, while the honest boy had a mouth full of issues. Hopefully we will all be ready to go next week when the weather gets nicer!

 

[studiowvw]

Good stuff! Thanks for the posts.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

You've had some wonderful, positive training times!

Let us know if you notice any changes after the dental visit with your honest boy. Maybe his eye will be a little softer, or there may be subtle indications that he is glad you took care of him.

Thanks for the interesting post.

 

[bunni1900]

What a GREAT topic! I have a mare who is very similar when I ask her to "whoa"; she seems to get VERY frustrated about standing still. I will definitly try some of these tips to see if they help!