Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[Windstorm Minis]

Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.

Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.

Everyone talks about only raising "quality, conformationally correct" horses, but part of "quality & conformation" is in the eye of the beholder- I'm NOT talking about obvious faults - bad bites, cow-hocked, and such...but "faults" than can be corrected with tricks.

Some folks like the Arab type minis and some like the QH or Morgan or whatever other type of mini.

The Arab type is supposed to have the long neck, the flat topline and so on. If you like the QH type, then you would not be looking for the flat topline and not necessarily a really long neck...just normal. A "normal" neck is one that the bottom line of the neck is 1/2 the length of the topline of the neck, just as the back should be 1/2 the length of the bottom line. These are "standard" measurements in "big" horses for conformation.

You can also trim feet to straighten up legs....if you have a horse whos feet turn out a bit, you can file the outside of the hoof shorter than the inside and straighten them up....and yes, I have seen this done in different breeds. So, if you do that then the horse is not "genetically" correct and could pass that on.

I'm not talking about "conditioning" a horse for show - getting them in shape - I am talking about doing anything that changes them in the genetic sense.

If you have a horse - any sex - that has to have their neck sweated down to compete in the show ring, then that is not a true representation of said horse. If their neck is NOT slender without the sweating, then they can pass the trait on to the foals and then you get the not so great offspring that has been talked about in other posts.

Then there is the topline that is so talked about. I have seen many, many minis that just standing "normal" do not have a flat topline, but go and stick your fingers in their back and wow they now have a flat topline!

If you have to do some trick to make them "look" like they have a flat topline, then they are not "genetically" going to throw that topline - especially if both sire and dam do not have the flat topline just standing "normal".

So, I say this - Anyone standing or promoting ANY mini - that has been sweated, use tricks to get a flat topline, trim hooves to correct a problem....is NOT in any way doing any good at promoting and breeding "correct" horses.

And then you can get into what is correct? Setting aside "obvious" conformation faults - what is good conformation for one person can be different for another...as in some like the Arab type and some like the QH type. If

If you like the QH type, then NOT having a flat topline is not a conformation fault and having a "normal" neck

isn't either. And vice-versa.

Does that beautiful, long, slender necked, flat topline horse "set-up" for nice pics look the same if they are standing normal and not sweated? I would bet a great many of them would not.

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

My sister and I went back to our stalls and took out our "not naturally" flat toplined horses and did that little trick and wow, it worked and they stood there with a flat topline! Learned a whole lot at that show!!

If you take said stud and said mare that are sweated down and whatever else and breed them...are you going to get that slender neck genetically....high chance that no, you will not.

So, bash away, but ANY breeder on this board or anywhere that uses the "tricks" to promote their horses - tricks that change their "True" genetics or conformation is no better than the "back yard" breeders.

Take that one step further....if someone is using the "tricks" and getting those oh, so nice, but NOT a true representation of the horse's "genetics" or "conformation" pictures.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

Another story about a mini my sister and I bought a long time ago - we bought him from pics...as he was way too far away to go see....received lots of pics and really liked him - bought him - had him shipped and he was so cow-hocked that his hocks nearly rubbed together!! So, apparently they stood him up and took their hands and pulled his hocks straight and snapped the pics......we got burned...we gelded him and found him a very nice "pet" home where he is much loved and taken care of and certainly won't be passing on that genetic fault.

Remember the mini horse show segment that aired on RFDTV a while back. I was watching the show and I saw the most gorgeous mini shown by a youth....looked like a mini QH - to me, stunningly beautiful and I was thinking that I want that "type" of mini for my daughter to show in 4-H and local shows as she would be showing mostly against QH type "big" horses.

I also just love the Arab type too....

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Have a great day!!

 

[SmoothEZ]

I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?

Who decides what the top quality is? A National Winner? Then what?

A committee would have to sit down and make a list. There isn't many National Winners, so there would have to be what next? And who decides what that next is? Would it be a son of a National Winner, or would it be a National All-Star Winner? Who received that award due to a large number of shows attended, not by the top placings in a few shows?

The answer to this question is my eyes "is the standards of the Breed". I am not saying that it is determined by a National Winner, what I did say in my original post is that if you think your horse can enter the show ring just for an example lets say standing next to "First Knight Lord of the Rings" and you would not be embarrassed to be there then maybe just maybe you have a nice stallion. But if you do feel embarrassed having your horse stand next to one like that then maybe you should have a gelding. Nowhere in my post did I say that a good horse has to be a show horse, but it should by all means fair well against the breed standards that are set by (all of us) the Breed Registries. Also if you have a proven stallion that is not putting babies on the ground that are better then him then maybe you need to re-evaluate your breeding program, as I think that the ultimate goal of breeding your horses should be to improve the breed not just make cute little cuddly babies with genetic problems. I am also saying that the same standards need to be applied to your mares. There are plenty of mares out there that should not be bred and I commend those that have the foresight and will power not to breed them. I know of one woman that has a 26 inch mare that she has had for over 10 years and she will not ever breed this mare because she thinks that she is too small to breed. It is not because this mare has any genetic problems it is just that the owner thinks that the mare may have problems with foaling and she is unsure of what the resulting foal would look like because she is so small. I commend her for her decision and the will power that this decision has taken. Just because you own a mare and a stallion does not mean that you should breed them. You first have to think about what the resultant foal would be. OK back off my soap box again. :saludando:

 

[Buckskin gal]

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: Very well stated. What one sees in pictures is not always what we get and yet those professional pictures do make sales! Thanks for putting it so very well. Mary

Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.

Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.

Everyone talks about only raising "quality, conformationally correct" horses, but part of "quality & conformation" is in the eye of the beholder- I'm NOT talking about obvious faults - bad bites, cow-hocked, and such...but "faults" than can be corrected with tricks.

Some folks like the Arab type minis and some like the QH or Morgan or whatever other type of mini.

The Arab type is supposed to have the long neck, the flat topline and so on. If you like the QH type, then you would not be looking for the flat topline and not necessarily a really long neck...just normal. A "normal" neck is one that the bottom line of the neck is 1/2 the length of the topline of the neck, just as the back should be 1/2 the length of the bottom line. These are "standard" measurements in "big" horses for conformation.

You can also trim feet to straighten up legs....if you have a horse whos feet turn out a bit, you can file the outside of the hoof shorter than the inside and straighten them up....and yes, I have seen this done in different breeds. So, if you do that then the horse is not "genetically" correct and could pass that on.

I'm not talking about "conditioning" a horse for show - getting them in shape - I am talking about doing anything that changes them in the genetic sense.

If you have a horse - any sex - that has to have their neck sweated down to compete in the show ring, then that is not a true representation of said horse. If their neck is NOT slender without the sweating, then they can pass the trait on to the foals and then you get the not so great offspring that has been talked about in other posts.

Then there is the topline that is so talked about. I have seen many, many minis that just standing "normal" do not have a flat topline, but go and stick your fingers in their back and wow they now have a flat topline!

If you have to do some trick to make them "look" like they have a flat topline, then they are not "genetically" going to throw that topline - especially if both sire and dam do not have the flat topline just standing "normal".

So, I say this - Anyone standing or promoting ANY mini - that has been sweated, use tricks to get a flat topline, trim hooves to correct a problem....is NOT in any way doing any good at promoting and breeding "correct" horses.

And then you can get into what is correct? Setting aside "obvious" conformation faults - what is good conformation for one person can be different for another...as in some like the Arab type and some like the QH type. If

If you like the QH type, then NOT having a flat topline is not a conformation fault and having a "normal" neck

isn't either. And vice-versa.

Does that beautiful, long, slender necked, flat topline horse "set-up" for nice pics look the same if they are standing normal and not sweated? I would bet a great many of them would not.

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

My sister and I went back to our stalls and took out our "not naturally" flat toplined horses and did that little trick and wow, it worked and they stood there with a flat topline! Learned a whole lot at that show!!

If you take said stud and said mare that are sweated down and whatever else and breed them...are you going to get that slender neck genetically....high chance that no, you will not.

So, bash away, but ANY breeder on this board or anywhere that uses the "tricks" to promote their horses - tricks that change their "True" genetics or conformation is no better than the "back yard" breeders.

Take that one step further....if someone is using the "tricks" and getting those oh, so nice, but NOT a true representation of the horse's "genetics" or "conformation" pictures.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

Another story about a mini my sister and I bought a long time ago - we bought him from pics...as he was way too far away to go see....received lots of pics and really liked him - bought him - had him shipped and he was so cow-hocked that his hocks nearly rubbed together!! So, apparently they stood him up and took their hands and pulled his hocks straight and snapped the pics......we got burned...we gelded him and found him a very nice "pet" home where he is much loved and taken care of and certainly won't be passing on that genetic fault.

Remember the mini horse show segment that aired on RFDTV a while back. I was watching the show and I saw the most gorgeous mini shown by a youth....looked like a mini QH - to me, stunningly beautiful and I was thinking that I want that "type" of mini for my daughter to show in 4-H and local shows as she would be showing mostly against QH type "big" horses.

I also just love the Arab type too....

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Have a great day!!

 

[Mona]

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: VERY WELL said Windstorm Minis!!!

SmoothEZ, I really think the "standard of perfection" is a joke for our breed! It may be an outline, but since our breed allows different "types", there is no one standarad to follow, just as those "types" in the large horse world each have their own registry and their own standard of perfection.

Our breed standard only gives a basic outline of what to look for in the way of correct conformation, and not so much geared towards a standard of perfection as in a breed standard.

I may not be making sense. I know what I am TRYING to say, but not sure if it is coming out right or not.

:

So if we all follow the standard of perfection as presented to us by out registries, we can all aim towards good conformation, and that is MOST important, in my opinion.

 

[NMMack]

: Thank You!!!

:

This is what I have always thought also!

Nancy

Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.

Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.

Everyone talks about only raising "quality, conformationally correct" horses, but part of "quality & conformation" is in the eye of the beholder- I'm NOT talking about obvious faults - bad bites, cow-hocked, and such...but "faults" than can be corrected with tricks.

Some folks like the Arab type minis and some like the QH or Morgan or whatever other type of mini.

The Arab type is supposed to have the long neck, the flat topline and so on. If you like the QH type, then you would not be looking for the flat topline and not necessarily a really long neck...just normal. A "normal" neck is one that the bottom line of the neck is 1/2 the length of the topline of the neck, just as the back should be 1/2 the length of the bottom line. These are "standard" measurements in "big" horses for conformation.

You can also trim feet to straighten up legs....if you have a horse whos feet turn out a bit, you can file the outside of the hoof shorter than the inside and straighten them up....and yes, I have seen this done in different breeds. So, if you do that then the horse is not "genetically" correct and could pass that on.

I'm not talking about "conditioning" a horse for show - getting them in shape - I am talking about doing anything that changes them in the genetic sense.

If you have a horse - any sex - that has to have their neck sweated down to compete in the show ring, then that is not a true representation of said horse. If their neck is NOT slender without the sweating, then they can pass the trait on to the foals and then you get the not so great offspring that has been talked about in other posts.

Then there is the topline that is so talked about. I have seen many, many minis that just standing "normal" do not have a flat topline, but go and stick your fingers in their back and wow they now have a flat topline!

If you have to do some trick to make them "look" like they have a flat topline, then they are not "genetically" going to throw that topline - especially if both sire and dam do not have the flat topline just standing "normal".

So, I say this - Anyone standing or promoting ANY mini - that has been sweated, use tricks to get a flat topline, trim hooves to correct a problem....is NOT in any way doing any good at promoting and breeding "correct" horses.

And then you can get into what is correct? Setting aside "obvious" conformation faults - what is good conformation for one person can be different for another...as in some like the Arab type and some like the QH type. If

If you like the QH type, then NOT having a flat topline is not a conformation fault and having a "normal" neck

isn't either. And vice-versa.

Does that beautiful, long, slender necked, flat topline horse "set-up" for nice pics look the same if they are standing normal and not sweated? I would bet a great many of them would not.

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

My sister and I went back to our stalls and took out our "not naturally" flat toplined horses and did that little trick and wow, it worked and they stood there with a flat topline! Learned a whole lot at that show!!

If you take said stud and said mare that are sweated down and whatever else and breed them...are you going to get that slender neck genetically....high chance that no, you will not.

So, bash away, but ANY breeder on this board or anywhere that uses the "tricks" to promote their horses - tricks that change their "True" genetics or conformation is no better than the "back yard" breeders.

Take that one step further....if someone is using the "tricks" and getting those oh, so nice, but NOT a true representation of the horse's "genetics" or "conformation" pictures.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

Another story about a mini my sister and I bought a long time ago - we bought him from pics...as he was way too far away to go see....received lots of pics and really liked him - bought him - had him shipped and he was so cow-hocked that his hocks nearly rubbed together!! So, apparently they stood him up and took their hands and pulled his hocks straight and snapped the pics......we got burned...we gelded him and found him a very nice "pet" home where he is much loved and taken care of and certainly won't be passing on that genetic fault.

Remember the mini horse show segment that aired on RFDTV a while back. I was watching the show and I saw the most gorgeous mini shown by a youth....looked like a mini QH - to me, stunningly beautiful and I was thinking that I want that "type" of mini for my daughter to show in 4-H and local shows as she would be showing mostly against QH type "big" horses.

I also just love the Arab type too....

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Have a great day!!

 

[tagalong]

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

Again - that topline adjustment cannot change basic structure. If you actually think that the pushing down on the back (which only makes the muscles tighten) can creat a great topline that is not there - that cannot be hidden in anyway...

:

Trimming feet to make minor adjustments - again - that do NOT affect the structure of the leg which is obvious - is not an evil, dirty "show trick" - it is basic hoof care. You would do that same thing on a pet to help him travel better and be more balanced etc. But no - let's call it a shameful trick - when it is not. And it is not "changing them" in the "genetic sense". Yikes.

.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

Well - go figure. We had Liz M. out to shoot pictures of horses that were pulled in from the pasture and simply bathed and clipped - no "tricks" as you assert, no sweating, no fancy setting up, no backs pushed, no hocks set, no retouching, nothing. All they had to do was stand still... sort of. Hopefully. Or not.

: And yes - their quality shows. An honest representation. But you would claim that it is not? Could you please be just a bit more insulting? :bgrin

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Bolding mine. And WHERE has anyone said that in this thread?? :lol: Nowhere. Read again - all the posts about judging the horse as an individual... and basic, correct conformation is common no matter what "type" (or eve breed) you prefer. Shoulder angles. Clean, correct knees and hocks. Straight legs. And yes - we all need to honestly evaluate what we have out in the pasture...

and not just breed "to see what happens" but undertake it as a responsibilty to the horses themselves.

In Europe - many breeds require stallions to be evaluated and judged - they must achive certain scores to be allowed to breed - no ifs, ands or buts. If not - they become a gelding. Which is not a dirty word when you raise Warmbloods... but mention to some mini people and they will freak out - as we have seen in many threads here.

Mares are also evaluated and rated in other breeds - but the mere mention of such careful breeding evaluations and consideration here will only get you a chorus of NIMBY... it's a free country... no one can tell me what to do... screw you... comments that do nothing to better the Miniature Horse - health-wise or genetically... which one would think would be the primary goal of ANYONE choosing to breed. :no:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Have a great day!!

Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people

:

I have said it before and will say it again

At the end of each day all we can ask ourselves is did my ego or greed get in the way of the miniature horse breed today. and hope we can live with the answer.

 

[Mona]

Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people

:

I have said it before and will say it again

At the end of each day all we can ask ourselves is did my ego or greed get in the way of the miniature horse breed today. and hope we can live with the answer.

Well, for the record, I did not equate that post to "evil show people".

 

[Windstorm Minis]

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

Again - that topline adjustment cannot change basic structure. If you actually think that the pushing down on the back (which only makes the muscles tighten) can creat a great topline that is not there - that cannot be hidden in anyway...

:
[SIZE=10pt]Excuse me, but I did NOT say it changed the structure for good...it certainly changed it when he did that! So, Yes, you can set up a horse and push down on their back and take a picture and it would NOT show it's true topline.....I have seen it done.....so through a Picture it can be done....no, not otherwise if they don't have it!! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Trimming feet to make minor adjustments - again - that do NOT affect the structure of the leg which is obvious - is not an evil, dirty "show trick" - it is basic hoof care. You would do that same thing on a pet to help him travel better and be more balanced etc. But no - let's call it a shameful trick - when it is not. And it is not "changing them" in the "genetic sense". Yikes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]My, my thou doust protest a bit too much I think....it does happen....if someone is trimming a hoof to turn it straight and you dang well can do it....have seen that too and then when those hooves are trimmed LEVEL, the toes turn out again....so, if you don't tell a buyer that is what you did they YES you are selling a conformationally incorrect horse....as a conformationally correct horse does NOT toe out and is NOT cowhocked......and ANYONE can do this to a horse......not just "show" people......[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH......you are the one using the term evil and dirty....I said misrepresenting the true conformation and genetics of the horse.......and the "show tricks" I was mostly referring to are the sweating and pushing down on the back....you want to tell me that nobody sweats their horses or pushes down on their backs for a "better" pose.....hmm, I guess I'm just seeing things then.....[/SIZE]

.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

[/size]

Well - go figure. We had Liz M. out to shoot pictures of horses that were pulled in from the pasture and simply bathed and clipped - no "tricks" as you assert, no sweating, no fancy setting up, no backs pushed, no hocks set, no retouching, nothing. All they had to do was stand still... sort of. Hopefully. Or not.

: And yes - their quality shows. An honest representation. But you would claim that it is not? Could you please be just a bit more insulting? :bgrin
Nor did I say EVERYONE does those tricks.....if you take your horses out of the pasture for pics and do a clip and bathe them then YOU are showing your horses as they are!!!!!! I don't recall at all saying that YOU misrepresent your horses....I don't even know you....nor have I named or hinted at anyone....I'm saying what can and does happen.....no, not everyone....that would be ridiculous.

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Bolding mine. And WHERE has anyone said that in this thread?? :lol: Nowhere. Read again - all the posts about judging the horse as an individual... and basic, correct conformation is common no matter what "type" (or eve breed) you prefer. Shoulder angles. Clean, correct knees and hocks. Straight legs. And yes - we all need to honestly evaluate what we have out in the pasture... and not just breed "to see what happens" but undertake it as a responsibilty to the horses themselves.

Ah, but when someone asks for their horse to be critiqued it frequently includes that topline.....not just "standard" conformational faults, that would be a fault in ANY horse, big or small.

Sorry YOU are so offended......

In Europe - many breeds require stallions to be evaluated and judged - they must achive certain scores to be allowed to breed - no ifs, ands or buts. If not - they become a gelding. Which is not a dirty word when you raise Warmbloods... but mention to some mini people and they will freak out - as we have seen in many threads here.

Mares are also evaluated and rated in other breeds - but the mere mention of such careful breeding evaluations and consideration here will only get you a chorus of NIMBY... it's a free country... no one can tell me what to do... screw you... comments that do nothing to better the Miniature Horse - health-wise or genetically... which one would think would be the primary goal of ANYONE choosing to breed. :no:

 


I never said anything about "evil" show people......there are many, many wonderful show people....I have shown and hope to again next year.....my entire original post was about Representing the horse as they truly are genetically and conformationally....without any changes......changes anyone, not just show people could do....my reference to "back yard" breeders, which are often talked about on the forum, was that they usually just bring out the horse and take a picture....they are not doing any changes to make the horse look "better" and I am not limiting any of these actions to show people, back yard breeders or just mini lovers....ANYONE can do these things......my whole dang point is correctly representing your horse......period.

 

 

 

 

 


In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

 

 


Have a great day!!

Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people

:


I have said it before and will say it again


At the end of each day all we can ask ourselves is did my ego or greed get in the way of the miniature horse breed today. and hope we can live with the answer.

 

 

[horsehug]

Very well said, Windstorm Minis!

I truly believe each of us should breed for horses that are pleasing to Our eyes and what each of us likes as to type, while following a "generally uniform" standard of perfection for correct conformation.

Also not all of us are cut out for the show ring or for sending our horses to trainers either. I applaud those who are and if that is what they want to do, but I also applaud those who breed for horses of the type they themselves like and would purchase, without the need for showing. I certainly do not claim my foals are National champion quality to get them sold. I do not show and would not presume to advertise that way.

I know what I like (my own miniature horse goals), even if I can't always describe it in technical terms, and I truly try to breed for it.

Susan O.

 

[Windstorm Minis]

Thank you Mona....I have shown several different breeds of horses....and the most fun I have EVER had with show people was with the minis.....have always found them to be fun and always willing to teach and help!

Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people

:

I have said it before and will say it again

At the end of each day all we can ask ourselves is did my ego or greed get in the way of the miniature horse breed today. and hope we can live with the answer.

Well, for the record, I did not equate that post to "evil show people".

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Not to argue the point but to CLARIFY I said THESE THREADS not THAT POST. There have been several threads lately about showing and show people vs backyard or pet owners. All of that and showing or not showing has nothing to do with breeding conformationally correct horses and representing them honestly and fairly.

 

[tagalong]

Windstorm... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word "tricks" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>

:

And no - I do not "protest too much"... as you suggest. A bit rude, that. YOU were the one painting others who do "tricks " (again - your words) with a broad brush...

And in critiques - pay attention

: - you can evaluate and judge a topline as being level even in a QH type - you know - as in the croup not being miles higher than the withers... or vice versa. Or whether the back drops off suddenly behind the withers and rises over the loins. Or whether the front half of the horse matches the back half. Or whether the back is too long. All of that incorporates the topline. None of that BTW, is desireable.

But hey - I must protest too much or have something to hide... NOT. And no - I am not offended. I am simply weary of the idea that somehow one can manage to "fake" basic structure - or that basic corrective trimming - done the same for any horse - a little off here to balance, take some more of the other side to correct - is only seen as manipulative.

Back later... the farrier is due - maybe we will do some tricks.... :lol:

 

[Windstorm Minis]

Windstorm... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word "tricks" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>

:

And no - I do not "protest too much"... as you suggest. A bit rude, that. YOU were the one painting others who do "tricks " (again - your words) with a broad brush...

And in critiques - pay attention

: - you can evaluate and judge a topline as being level even in a QH type - you know - as in the croup not being miles higher than the withers... or vice versa. Or whether the back drops off suddenly behind the withers and rises over the loins. Or whether the front half of the horse matches the back half. Or whether the back is too long. All of that incorporates the topline. None of that BTW, is desireable.

But hey - I must protest too much or have something to hide... NOT. And no - I am not offended. I am simply weary of the idea that somehow one can manage to "fake" basic structure - or that basic corrective trimming - done the same for any horse - a little off here to balance, take some more of the other side to correct - is only seen as manipulative.

Back later... the farrier is due - maybe we will do some tricks.... :lol:

Windstorm... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word "tricks" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>

:

And no - I do not "protest too much"... as you suggest. A bit rude, that. YOU were the one painting others who do "tricks " (again - your words) with a broad brush...

And in critiques - pay attention

: - you can evaluate and judge a topline as being level even in a QH type - you know - as in the croup not being miles higher than the withers... or vice versa. Or whether the back drops off suddenly behind the withers and rises over the loins. Or whether the front half of the horse matches the back half. Or whether the back is too long. All of that incorporates the topline. None of that BTW, is desireable.

But hey - I must protest too much or have something to hide... NOT. And no - I am not offended. I am simply weary of the idea that somehow one can manage to "fake" basic structure - or that basic corrective trimming - done the same for any horse - a little off here to balance, take some more of the other side to correct - is only seen as manipulative.

Back later... the farrier is due - maybe we will do some tricks.... :lol:

 

[MiLo Minis]

My feeling on breeding:

Just because a horse comes from a farm with a big name does not necessarily mean that it will have perfect conformation, they too have their culls - as a matter of fact I don't believe that there is a horse out there with perfect conformation. I feel that it is my responsibility as a breeder to have the best possible stock that I can afford with the best conformation I can find and to recognize my own horses faults. Further I need to be able to breed that to another horse that will not double faults and will improve upon the conformation of the first horse. The resulting foal will hopefully be better than its parents and as the herd matures I need to be able to cull the worst of my herd and replace with something better whether this means keeping a foal or purchasing another horse. Some of my mature horses may or may not be attractive to other people but I find that together they can produce beautiful babies that I am proud of.

 

[tshack]

well all I can say smoothez is opinions vary, some may think the same of your animals,

Don't forget the phrase do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Any thought or put down can be reversed.

I will add a bit of my opinion on the matter and say that people who act just liek you've posted like they are the only ones who have some sort of liscense to have horses and the high and mighty rude attitudes that general nice people who come here are given is one of the reasons I don't contribute much to this forum. I do love some of the people that post here, but there are some that are just rude and snobby and it's a shame that those always seems to run the good guys off. It's like you've got to be inducted to the 'secret club' and that is supposed to make you exempt from everything bad that comes with owning horses and give you the liscense to own them. The ones that aren't in it are the ones that are scorned and put down.

 

[sdmini]

Well - go figure. We had Liz M. out to shoot pictures of horses that were pulled in from the pasture and simply bathed and clipped - no "tricks" as you assert, no sweating, no fancy setting up, no backs pushed, no hocks set, no retouching, nothing. All they had to do was stand still... sort of. Hopefully. Or not.

: And yes - their quality shows. An honest representation. But you would claim that it is not? Could you please be just a bit more insulting? :bgrin

I love Liz photos but they are great photos of horse art geared for selling a "fantasy" image of an animal, not a true representation. I have thumbed through several sets of proof where there are several stunning photos amidst many average looking ones. I am also reminded of the gal, while visiting another breeders place wanted to know where a certain horse was the breeder owned (she had seen it in the Journal, a Liz photo). The breeder laughed and said.....your standing next to it.

Liz is booked because she is the best, I've seen (I mean truly seen) some very average looking or down right dogs but photographed as a superior animal.

Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.

 

[tagalong]

Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.

Hmmm... well I guess you coudl say the same of ANY photos... done by ANYONE. Equally - how often do we read - "these photos do not do him justice"... see? It works both ways.

But the photos I liked were "true" representations... where this one is a teeny bit over at the knees... where that one's head could be a bit more refined... where this one could be a little cleaner throught the throatlatch. Not always the ones where they are "set up", either. No retouching. That is who they are - right out of the field. The right horse at the right angle - can look amazing... even to your eye - not just in a photo.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH......you are the one using the term evil and dirty....I said misrepresenting the true conformation and genetics of the horse.......and the "show tricks" I was mostly referring to are the sweating and pushing down on the back....you want to tell me that nobody sweats their horses or pushes down on their backs for a "better" pose.....hmm, I guess I'm just seeing things then.....

Windstorm... I hate the "you said I said" stuff - but to clarify a few things.... no, I am not "telling" you that nobody sweats their horses or does the back push - but again (and again and again) that does not - can not - hide the basic structure. Where did I ever say that no one did that? *confused*

If a horse is too long in the back and you run your fingers down it or push a bit to get them to tighten - they may only drop it and make things worse. I have seen QH handlers run their fingers up the belly - to get that horse to tuck up... dog handlers can do many of the same things...

The tricks that actually alter the horse's look are deplorable - such as the liposuction that I am sure many of us know some stallions have had...

There is no such thing as a perfectly conformed horse. So certain flaws are considered less severe than others. Toeing out slightly is "better" than toeing in. Being a bit over at the knees is better than being back at the knees. And so on. Each horse should be considered as a individual... and his flaws (and there will be some) addressed as to severity and importance. The sum of the parts make up the whole. And a stallion - with the ability to sire many foals a year and pass on his genetics in mass quantities... must meet the strictest criteria of all.

The mark of a truly great stallion of great conformation, athleticism and an even temperament - is that his sons and daughters and their descendants are superior to him...

And seeing as this farm only produced one foal last year... and 2 this year - I guess we are what you would call a "backyard" or "smalltime" breeder... :bgrin

 

[Windstorm Minis]

tagalong....like I said before, you are a very sad, angry person. All we can do is feel sorry for someone like you that lives their daily lives attacking people and trying to intimidate them.

You've completely missed the points that most people have made on this post and I personally do not have any more time for someone like you.

If you are talking about me being a backyard breeder with one foal last year and 2 this year, then once again you don't know what you are talking about. I have 5 foals due this year, 14 minis in all. Small, yes compared to some, but I just got back into minis last year (so I had NO mini foals last year) after selling most of my "big" horses because I missed the little ones too much.

I don't care what you call me...because your particular opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

Does it make you feel really, really good to take one post after another and attack people? Again, how sad.

Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.

Hmmm... well I guess you coudl say the same of ANY photos... done by ANYONE. Equally - how often do we read - "these photos do not do him justice"... see? It works both ways.

But the photos I liked were "true" representations... where this one is a teeny bit over at the knees... where that one's head could be a bit more refined... where this one could be a little cleaner throught the throatlatch. Not always the ones where they are "set up", either. No retouching. That is who they are - right out of the field. The right horse at the right angle - can look amazing... even to your eye - not just in a photo.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH......you are the one using the term evil and dirty....I said misrepresenting the true conformation and genetics of the horse.......and the "show tricks" I was mostly referring to are the sweating and pushing down on the back....you want to tell me that nobody sweats their horses or pushes down on their backs for a "better" pose.....hmm, I guess I'm just seeing things then.....

Windstorm... I hate the "you said I said" stuff - but to clarify a few things.... no, I am not "telling" you that nobody sweats their horses or does the back push - but again (and again and again) that does not - can not - hide the basic structure. Where did I ever say that no one did that? *confused*

If a horse is too long in the back and you run your fingers down it or push a bit to get them to tighten - they may only drop it and make things worse. I have seen QH handlers run their fingers up the belly - to get that horse to tuck up... dog handlers can do many of the same things...

The tricks that actually alter the horse's look are deplorable - such as the liposuction that I am sure many of us know some stallions have had...

There is no such thing as a perfectly conformed horse. So certain flaws are considered less severe than others. Toeing out slightly is "better" than toeing in. Being a bit over at the knees is better than being back at the knees. And so on. Each horse should be considered as a individual... and his flaws (and there will be some) addressed as to severity and importance. The sum of the parts make up the whole. And a stallion - with the ability to sire many foals a year and pass on his genetics in mass quantities... must meet the strictest criteria of all.

The mark of a truly great stallion of great conformation, athleticism and an even temperament - is that his sons and daughters and their descendants are superior to him...

And seeing as this farm only produced one foal last year... and 2 this year - I guess we are what you would call a "backyard" or "smalltime" breeder... :bgrin

 

[tagalong]

tagalong....like I said before, you are a very sad, angry person. All we can do is feel sorry for someone like you that lives their daily lives attacking people and trying to intimidate them.
You've completely missed the points that most people have made on this post and I personally do not have any more time for someone like you.

I am neither sad - nor angry (where did you say that before?). Not in the least. How did you decide that?

Nor I have attacked anyone or insulted them - as you have me. And I have agreed with many posters in this thread - so I am afraid I am still confused here....

If you are talking about me being a backyard breeder with one foal last year and 2 this year, then once again you don't know what you are talking about. I have 5 foals due this year, 14 minis in all. Small, yes compared to some, but I just got back into minis last year (so I had NO mini foals last year) after selling most of my "big" horses because I missed the little ones too much.

[SIZE=14pt]Please read again[/SIZE] - before you decide to attack. *sigh*

I said we had those foals HERE. HERE. Not you. HERE.

I don't care what you call me...because your particular opinion means absolutely nothing to me.
Does it make you feel really, really good to take one post after another and attack people? Again, how sad.

WHAT? HUH?

Again - I attacked NO ONE. I did not call you anything. Where? I was talking about the fact that WE could be considered small time breeders - you simply decided I was talking about you. Such was NOT the case. But feel free to point fingers and accuse... when no insults were directed your way... nothing. Unfortunately - the same cannot be said of how you have posted to me.

This is a forum/message board - and all opinions matter... and all opinions figure into a discussion.

[SIZE=10pt]edited for lousy spelling[/SIZE]