Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[kaykay]

keep in mind i just got back from our first show and am exhausted.

Ill say this. years ago on here i did critiques and GOT BLASTED FOR IT. was called many names and most of them not nice but amoung them, too blunt, too mean, too much of a perfectionist etc etc. So I stopped doing them

Awhile back a lot of youth were asking questions and I started conformation threads ON MY OWN HORSES. I tore my own horses up and every horse i showed on there has done well showing locally. All went well for awhile. Then it started. I started doing a couple critiques on the kids horses and honestly the kids were fine with it. But then the pms started LOL. Yep i was getting blasted again. Now im no expert for sure!!! And NEVER claim to be. I was only trying to share with the kids what i know myself. I am endlessly fascinated by conformation and form following function.

I havent shown yet nationally due to not being able to travel that far but hopefully someday! Im just a little breeder trying to do the best I can and breed the best I can. I am harder on my horses then anyone else ever could be.

But doing critiques on here just doesnt work!!

 

[KanoasDestiny]

A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).

 

[kaykay]

if you look at my site kanos you will see i only breed purebred border collies and all are from national champion herding bloodlines

yep im as picky on dogs as i am horses LOL

 

[SmoothEZ]

My dog is a beautiful well marked dalmation that has been neutered because he was not breeding quality because his spots were too big.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[nootka]

I think if anyone were to visit a local shelter, they would agree that the world does not, either, need more mutts and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts this SAME CONVERSATION

is happening somewhere on a dog breed board re: mutts/poor type being perpetuated.

The point of all of this is that there are some of us who have different "taste" in horses. This is fine, as long as individual conformation is correct and equal. Follow your big horse types for reference, but overall, don't look past the best examples of every breed. They are proportionate and sound as the most desirable trait.

Then there are those that refuse to admit they are looking past some pretty unacceptable faults in order to flatter themselves. Not going to say I've never done it. I don't pretend to want everyone to like my taste in horses, but I will say that if I sell you a horse I feel will be a decent show horse as well as pleasure horse, I believe it and I want you to have looked around enough to believe it, too. If not, my horse will stay here.

What I do want people to see is that in this "breed" (Miniatures) proportion is quite important in that if you get far too out of whack, I really believe you're playing with dwarfism. Case in point: Long back, ok? Yeah, maybe by itself, but you add a large head and shorter legs and you have a dwarf on your hands. So if your mare/stallion have a combination of the two between them, guess what? could be more likely you'd get a dwarf.

Anyone would admit that dwarfism is a problem and we dont' fully understand the role that genetics plays in it, but I will say that in a lot of the cases where I've seen the sire and dam, I can see where the dwarfism happened. I can't say every one because I haven't seen every sire/dam. I'm not trying to say I "know it all" about this, just that I can see it in certain individuals. Heck, I had one here! This is why she left here as a pet. My mistake!

Show horses aside, if we look at our breed standards and truly compare what we have with what we're trying for, we will cut out at least the worst of our breeding choices, but not everyone cares about it, and so we just blunder on, doing our best for whatever our purposes.

I wish I could take you to what I think is the largest mini breeder in this state's place. I happen to know they own at least 300 horses and other miscellaneous "exotics". I may be sheltered, but when they're bragging at selling 20 or better horses in a month, I believe they must be doing quite a business. They breed for color alone, from what I can see. Registrations are a mess, the health care is horrendous, and dwarfs are everywhere, from severe to mild, but wow, what color. The smell of death pervades the place.

This person obviously cares little for the breed standard or even whether or not they get $200 for a crooked little colt or $30,000 for a special little rare color (again bragging). Either way, there's a market and they cater to it. I do know of several people who have done business with them and 99% wholly regret it. They wish to go back and buy the rest to save them, but guess what that does? Encourage them to get and make more. I can't think this person has no effect on the market, nor other/new people's ideas when they go to visit. They perpetuate the idea that certain combos are fine as long as the color's what they're after, and smaller is better, with no explanation as to quality or soundness (not bashing tiny ones, only the pursuit of one trait beyond what is reasonable and healthy)

Correctness and temperament, then beauty, and the beauty part comes quite easily to the most correct horses I've seen/found.

Liz M.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).

NO comparison.. I have mutts and always have as well as purebreed dogs however i WOULD NEVER EVER breed my mixed breed dogs. They are loved, sleep in my bed and if you ask my kids sometimes get get treated to good

:

However there are way to many dogs being put to sleep on a daily basis for me to even think of breeding a dog just cause I love it and want a cute pup I can go get a cute pup and save a life or save myself the trouble a pup is and get an adult dog waiting on death row.

That statement doesnt change the fact I LOVE my dogs pure breed or not but loving any animal isnt enough reason to breed them IMO

 

[stormo41]

this seems like a long and interesting converstion. I have skimmed through the 10 pages and would like to share my thoughts.

On the first and formost question "why do people keep Mediocre horses Stallions?" I know some one already said this but I will say it again "Because they can". It's true a Mediocre or poor stallion is cheep, and easy. People can find one for sale close to them, A mini is easy to get to your home (of you live on a lrage enough property to keep him/her). Maybe they have childeren who have always wanted a horse or "pony" and they see the chance to make money if they get their kid 2 minis.

It was also brought up about dogs too, My dog is a mutt and I hate to say probaly came from a puppy mill, we got her a pet store. I love her and would not give her up for anything. I think the reason why it is being more noticed with Miniature horses and the breeding of low quitly horses NOT JUST THE STALLIONS!!! is because miniature horses are becomeing more popular around the world, more cleberties are publicly owning minis and breeders can send their stock to live with anyone anywhere in the world.

I also read a comment "the big breeders blame the small breeders, and they small breeders blame the big breeders"

How true the larger breeders claim that the smaller or "back yard breeders" are causing problems for the breed by breeding to many poor horses therefore poor foals offered to the public for cheep. The smaller breeders say that the large breeders put to high of prices on their horses who can afford that? I find that sad, People are falling into the dreaded circle of blaming doom. It's no use, to hind behind something or someone else, you have what you have and you love and care for it and you should be proud of it.

The thing is people see things and they want things right away, as said before people rush into it without thinking about what they are doing.

Ithink the most important thing I want to bring up is that it's not just the stallions that are mediocre, often times the mares are not top grade as well. And on top of that a person may have ONE poor stallion and MANY poor mares who they breed to that stallion.

And one last thing, there are so many reasons why people keep mediocre horses for breeding reasons and you will never know all of the reasons. I know that it gets frustating seeing it happen when breeders big or small are trying to promote and work for years perfecting their breeding programs. The only thing you can do is get out their and tell the public what good conformation is for the breed, and warn them about issues with the breed such as darwfism and so on.

I also saw that someone said something along the lines of "having conformation posts on here just does not work" I wonder why????????? could it be because this is forum full of people who for the most part are breeding nice horses and are promoting the breed for what it should be. If you want to make a difference this is not the place to push education of course it is nice to have such things on here for new people to the breed and so on, and it helps alot. But this is not the only place in the world where people can get information on miniature horses.

-vanessa

 

[susanne]

A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).

With the exception of one horse, all of our dogs, cats and horses are rescues whom we love with all of our hearts. Two dogs are purebred, two are mutts. All of our animals are gelded, spayed or neutered, or will be soon.

I've often been asked why I gelded Mingus, but as much as I love him, and as good of a show horse as he is, he is still not breeding material according to my standards. It is very unlikely that I will ever breed, but if I do it will not be with "the best that I could afford," but the "best." Period. I may never be able to afford the horses that I consider worthy of breeding, but that's just the way it is.

My reason? I've seen far too many unwanted animals...and my two purebred dogs are proof that not even good breeding prevents a dog from ending up being unwanted. I would not bring a creature into this world without knowing they were needed and wanted...not just by us, but by others as well in case something should happen to us.

Even then, I'll probably always look instead amongst the many wonderful foals bred by others.

BTW, even though our pedigrees, conformation, intelligence and temperaments are very nice indeed, Keith and I chose not to -- um -- breed. (Neither of us, however, is spayed or neutered...)

 

[nootka]

*LOL* susanne, thanks for injecting a little levity into the situation.

you are both great people and great "parents" to your brood not to mention great with kids anyway.

One does not have to procreate to be "worth" something, eh?

Interesting concept......

There are some awesomely made horses that are very affordable right here in the NW. I know where a lot of 'em are. My secrets! (less than the cost of a good show horse!)

Liz

 

[shane]

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[Danielle_E.]

OOps sorry Danniel, I did not intend for it to sound like that..I too appreciate tact and diplomacy in the way a horse is critiqued.. All I was trying to get across is that if someone is wanting a honest critique it may be better for them to get one thru a reputable member of this forum, via PM style. This way all the confusion of different opinions on what looks good, as opposed to what is conformationally acceptable is eliminated, and the horse can be truthfully evaluated.. I too agree that Lyn has a good eye on what are a horses strengths and weaknesses., and have sought her opinions before..

Oh Margaret, I wasn't meaning you at all . I just remember a certain incident where someone point blank said something about sugar coating in another thread and went on to boast on straightforward they were and prided themselves on it and this was one of the most rude people I have ever come across in my entire life and I remember thinking I would rather sugar coat which to me means telling what you think BUT doing it with some finesse, tact and diplomacy. I certainly wasn't thinking of you or most other members on this board, just this one gal who seems to get wars going on any thread she participates in.

Hugs to you!

 

[Margaret]

Okey Dokey..

:

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

To address the OP's question, I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?

: There are varying degrees of taste in what one likes and wishes to produce but in all breeding situations, and mini horse breeders are no exception, you have to produce a lot of babies to get something exceptional and exceptional ones rarely end up for sale. So unfortunately there will always be a large influx of what some think are mediocre animals and in turn they will be sold to those who also have big dreams to produce good horses too and they most certainly won't think their stallions are mediorcre either. Unfortunately, it's an endless cycle and not one likely to ever resolve.

I wish there were a better way than critiques to educate people thinking about taking the plunge into breeding miniatures, or any animal for that matter, but even the best intentioned, as those on the youth forum, were blasted as being know-it-alls so I doubt those who DO have an eye for correctness will be willing to take that kind of abuse repeatedly before they give up and that knowlege is silenced forever. I dislike the critiques only because the photos usually do a terrible disservice to the animal and things that appear to be a flaw usually are not when the animal is actually seen up close. Rarely have I ever seen someone get mean in a critique and call someone's horse garbage. I believe most of the posters are genuinely trying to be helpful and honest and not trying to hurt anyone intentionally.

Those who request a critique must be willing to hear some not so flattering things. They have purposefully asked for opinions, no one is forcing their opinions on them out of the blue. Sometimes I think it's not that those who sugar coat it are being more tactful or even kind but more often than not it seems they try to balance the perceived harshness which in a real critique is sometimes unfortunately necessary. Someone could say all the right words and someone somewhere would get their feelings hurt reading too much into it from their own personal baggage. Those that are willing to learn from a critiques are ready to hear what others are seeing but if they are only expecting to hear what they already believe than it can be quite devastating.

 

[shane]

WELL I ASKED FOR A CRITIQUE ON MY HORSE A WHILE BACK, AND I WAS GENUINELY WANTING AN HONEST OPINION ON HIM FROM THE EXPERT EYE, LYN AND KAY ETC, I GOT A LOVELY RESPONSE AND I WAS GENUINELY NOT WANTING SUGAR COATED ANSWERS TO MAKE ME FEEL GOOD, I WAS CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT THE AMERICAN EYE COULD SEE IN HIM, BUT WHAT I DIDN'T EXPECT WAS TO GET A CRITIQUE IN A PM, INSULTING HIM, TELLING ME THAT HIS FOALS WHERE WORTHLESS,AND THEY WOULD GELD HIM, I THINK THAT WAS A BIT UNCALLED FOR IN THIS FORUM, AS THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ON HERE ARE VERY HELPFUL AND KNOWLEDGEABLE, WHAT I GOT WAS SOMEONE BEING CRUEL,AND DIDN'T WANT EVERYONE ON HERE TO SEE THE TRUE THEM.........

:

 

[Cathy_H]

This is caused by overbreeding when there is not a demand for all the foals being produced. Why do people, each and every year, over and over, take foals to sales to make room for the ones to be born next year? Why do they breed more that what there is a demand for? Overbreeding happens not only to the farms using mediocre stallions but to those farms breeding their champion stallion with no homes for their get and for their get's get to go to.

Finally, someone reinforcing what I have been saying for years...... Doesn't matter that the miniature horse numbers have NOT reached the numbers of some large horse breeds... That's comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Jill]

I would like to echo what Mary Lou said about showing, however, to really get an education as to how your own breeding stock stacks up, I do think you need to get them in the ring. Speaking on my own past experience, having my various horses in the ring has enlightened me a great deal and did change my opinions about the degree physical perfection of each! It is too easy to sit outside the ring and keep those mommy goggles on and truly think your horse would have done well but the only way to know is to get him or her in the ring.

To me, I feel it is almost blasphemous to say your horse is National Champion caliber unless he's been National Champion. BUT, I remember a time when I (honest to God) felt like Derby had what it took to place in halter at the nationals as a stallion. I was in tears when I found out by putting him there that he did not. It was part of my continuing education in the breed. And, I can also say that Derby (now a gelding) is better stallion material than what many are using as their stallion and yes, he proved that in the ring as well at many shows.

In my experience, the only way to really stand back and LOOK at how your horse stacks up is to put him into competetion and if you are fortunate enough to have a handler so YOU can stand outside the ring and LOOK at the entire class, in my own experience, it is an amazing eye opener.

That stuff about politics, too, is just a bunch of sour grapes. If that's your fall back position, don't waste your time and money on shows. In most cases, there's at least 2 judges at a registry show and there are VALID reasons that some horses consistently place at the top and why do some handlers / owners / trainers place consistently at the top??? They've got good taste and a good eye.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Jill I have to say that politics thing just cracks me up. I am a bit shocked when those start screaming politics outside the ring (heck some before they even leave the ring) come on now when those same people get a ribbon or a placing they wanted do they still run out of the ring screaming politics?

Cant be both ways cant only be politics if you are losing but never only when you place or win.

Am I blind to the fact that it could happen and does a small percentage of the time. Nope but again the thing that gets me is those that scream it the loudest sure dont seem to think it would apply if they won only if they lose. How does that work

:

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[Jill]

I hear you, Lisa!!!

There's a lady I used to show with and she used to gripe loud enough for others to hear outside of the ring about my horse or her horse should have done better. I used to HATE that because I knew others could over hear and how many people would remember it was that lady talking trash??? I think most would look back and remember WE were talking trash (although I never said anything gripy when others were around...)

Just such poor sportsmanship.

 

[Frankie]

I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?

I believe the above statement is at the core of the entire thing!

Well said.

Who decides what the top quality is? A National Winner? Then what?

A committee would have to sit down and make a list. There isn't many National Winners, so there would have to be what next? And who decides what that next is? Would it be a son of a National Winner, or would it be a National All-Star Winner? Who received that award due to a large number of shows attended, not by the top placings in a few shows?

I have pretty much read this entire thread. And the above statement has come into play a number of times. By people whom have posted and think their stallion is top notch. But is he???? And who "says", or has the right to say, to make is so?