Advice on how to handle a situation

[rabbitsfizz]

You did what I would have done, but an awful lot more diplomatically!!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Thank you Flying Minis for taking time to read and post on this thread.

If i decided to breed dwarfs(which i do not) i am not sure if i would look at really quality mares at high end prices to do it with.

So that might answer several questions.

All bloodlines have potential to produce dwarfs. Therefore that old say'in comes to mind, "those that live in glass houses should not throw rocks."

The questions at hand are, is it OK to slander someone about their breeding program?

Is a public forum, gently and quietly enough?

Do you really think these people do not know they are the center of attention on this thread?

When do i become an expert?

When does anyone that has written on this thread become an expert?

When is it OK for me or anyone else on this forum to tell others what kind, when and how many to breed?

Is it OK for me to tell anyone that inquires about a horse from my farm, that their horses are inferior, and my horses are really too good for their breeding program?

Integrity and arrogance are two completely different things, and sometimes it is difficult for me to know where the line is.

 

[Flying minis]

Thank you Flying Minis for taking time to read and post on this thread.

If i decided to breed dwarfs(which i do not) i am not sure if i would look at really quality mares at high end prices to do it with.

So that might answer several questions.

All bloodlines have potential to produce dwarfs. Therefore that old say'in comes to mind, "those that live in glass houses should not throw rocks."

The questions at hand are, is it OK to slander someone about their breeding program?

Is a public forum, gently and quietly enough?

Do you really think these people do not know they are the center of attention on this thread?

When do i become an expert?

When does anyone that has written on this thread become an expert?

When is it OK for me or anyone else on this forum to tell others what kind, when and how many to breed?

Is it OK for me to tell anyone that inquires about a horse from my farm, that their horses are inferior, and my horses are really too good for their breeding program?

Integrity and arrogance are two completely different things, and sometimes it is difficult for me to know where the line is.

I chose to repy to the OPs original question re: how to discuss her concerns with the seller. Whether it was appropriate to bring up on a forum is a question that can be debated continuall. Personally though, I appreciate that people are willing to share their knowledge, and I recognize that what they share is their OPINION. And all should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't think any one said the seller should tell the buyer their horses are inferior, or that hers were too good for them. She seemed to have a legitimate concern for her horse, and wished to find a way to diplomatically state her OPINION, which I believe she did.

To me the difference in integrity and arrogance lie in how the message is communicated. That's why some people can be "experts" and be considered arrogant, and others, who may or may not be "experts" are respected.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

To me the difference in integrity and arrogance lie in how the message is communicated. That's why some people can be "experts" and be considered arrogant, and others, who may or may not be "experts" are respected.

Thank you, That is an excellent answer. And one i will remember.

My hope in life is to never be condescending to anyone. My hope for this thread is that it got everyone thinking. Hopefully people opened their minds to new ideas and thoughts, i know i did.

I am sure Parmela did the right thing for this situation.

I also hope that we all remember that there is a real person, with feelings and emotions, on the other end of our emails. And when we send them, to send them with kind words.

Whether you agree or disagree with what has been stated. Everyone on this forum has an opinion, and that opinion matters! I value differences, because it teaches me to look at things from different perspectives.

I will always take an opportunity to learn.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

The only way to control the destiny of a horse is to keep it......and then we are not really in control...we just think we are. It could die of colic, a dystocia (not associated with carrying a dwarf foal), or of many other reasons while in the care of the best horseman/horsewoman. All of our horses are just gifts...on loan from God. I have learned a lot from this thread...and I am not being sarcastic at all about it.....I have learned that I always want to be empathetic towards "humans" because honestly....their feelings are as important as the horses....or at least they should be. If we lose touch with that concept....then what do we really have? Nothing in my opinion. I was raised to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"....and in this case, how many of you could accept this if you were the person that inquired?....I bet not many, if any, of you would like it. I know I wouldn't. How many of you have the perspective to put yourself in their shoes and just "pretend" for a moment that you were the potential buyer in this case? And to whomever quoted me in this as saying "I would tell a white lie that was harmless and would hurt no one to spare the feelings of this potential buyer" and said they wouldn't ever dream of doing something like that because one lie leads to another..yadda yadda.....I have inquired on and purchased several horses over the years, and if someone told me that there was another buyer ahead of me or that they have decided to hold on to the horse for awhile.....I wouldn't question it....not at all....I have never wanted a horse bad enough to dig and dig and dig for the reason that it was not for sale to me. That would be it....end of story...and the little white lie would have spared all of this. Worth it in my opinion...and harmless. Best wishes to all involved.

 

[pinkapache]

Maybe you could say you have decided not to sell her? After all..you have...decided not to sell your horse to her! I agree with the posters who spoke about being your horse`s only advocate and listening to gut instinct, IF IN DOUBHT, LEAVE IT OUT. Placing your horse in a new home is the last and most important thing you do for them. All the best.

 

[Minimor]

Rockin Angel—you honestly believe that when someone inquires about a horse that is listed for sale, that gives the owner of the sale horse an invitation to pick apart some horse(s) on the buyer’s website? Soooo, you would honestly not have a problem with a seller who—after you contacted that seller about a stallion on their sales list—replied to you with something to the effect of “I’m sorry, but I don’t feel this is the horse for you….I’ve looked at your website and find that all your mares are substandard, they have big heads or short legs or bad hips or some combination of all 3 and therefore are not what I want this stallion to be bred to, so you cannot have him” (Please note I am not saying these things about your mares; I have never been to your website so have no idea what you have for horses!) You would be okay with that, because you inquired on their stallion and therefore invited the person to critique your mares? And you would be okay with it if you found out that seller then came to this board and posted about what she had done (or maybe she posted here before she actually replied to your query) and a bunch of people posted with praise for her for being so helpful and forthright, standing up for what is right in the Miniature horse world? You would REALLY be okay with that?

 

[Rockin Angels]

Rockin Angel—you honestly believe that when someone inquires about a horse that is listed for sale, that gives the owner of the sale horse an invitation to pick apart some horse(s) on the buyer's website? Soooo, you would honestly not have a problem with a seller who—after you contacted that seller about a stallion on their sales list—replied to you with something to the effect of "I'm sorry, but I don't feel this is the horse for you….I've looked at your website and find that all your mares are substandard, they have big heads or short legs or bad hips or some combination of all 3 and therefore are not what I want this stallion to be bred to, so you cannot have him" (Please note I am not saying these things about your mares; I have never been to your website so have no idea what you have for horses!) You would be okay with that, because you inquired on their stallion and therefore invited the person to critique your mares? And you would be okay with it if you found out that seller then came to this board and posted about what she had done (or maybe she posted here before she actually replied to your query) and a bunch of people posted with praise for her for being so helpful and forthright, standing up for what is right in the Miniature horse world? You would REALLY be okay with that?

 

I did not see in this thread where anyone chose to pick apart the sellers horses in fact the statement was made that the horses looked well cared for. The concern was the possible future of the mare. IF bred to a dwarf stallion. THE WELFARE OF THE MARE gives the OWNER of the mare the right to go forward with the sale if they so choose or to refuse to sell. What you are proposing is a entirely different scenario. THEREFORE lets compare apples to apples and say that I contact a seller about a stallion for sale and I have DWARF mares I want to have bred by this stallion. The seller then has every right to tell me no they would not sell their stallion to me for this use. YES YES YES. We are not talking about just a confirmation flaw but a genetic problem that I do not believe should be purposely continued. AND YES I would be ok with her coming to this forum to voice her concerns and standing up for the welfare of her horse. Not a problem.

 

[mini horse mania]

IMHO. ..I would be truly offended and hurt if someone refused to sell me a mare because my stallion didn't meet their standards and then told me what THEY saw wrong with him ...I may like the stallion...and chose to breed with him for my breeding program for a reason.everyone breeds for something different...the mare was offered for sale. ...to the PUBLIC.... as i gather it.the only way you can determine the destiny of your mare is to keep her.... I agree it your horse and you can choose where she goes...but i would feel as if you thought my horses were substandard to yours if you told me what was "wrong" with my horse. Just because I don't like Appaloosas does not mean that everyone on this forum doesnt like them either..

Is this stallion really a dwarf or Just looks unproportioned in the pictures?

 

[slv]

I find it very difficult to believe that overseas buyers have purchased this stallion and are going to pay quarentine to get him there if he is a dwarf. I am sure we will never really know....but does this make sense to any of you? I mean really....last I heard the overseas buyers had really wised up on their USA purchases. They won't even buy from professional photos alone. They want lots of information and photos. The overseas buyers are not so naive.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Is this stallion really a dwarf or Just looks unproportioned in the pictures?

Based on his pics, I would have wondered, but when he also has produced at least two (also based on pics on their site) I'd say there is no doubt...at least for me.

I find it very difficult to believe that overseas buyers have purchased this stallion and are going to pay quarentine to get him there if he is a dwarf. I am sure we will never really know....but does this make sense to any of you? I mean really....last I heard the overseas buyers had really wised up on their USA purchases. They won't even buy from professional photos alone. They want lots of information and photos. The overseas buyers are not so naive.

I totally agree with you. It may have not been a true story. I hope it's not true.

 

[Minimor]

Rockin’ Angel—you said earlier

As I previously stated "I believe when they inquired about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation.

Quite plainly you are saying than an inquiry gives invitation to the seller to look at your horses and critique them. So, if the seller is someone who feels very strongly about what conformation should/should not be used for breeding he/she may feel justified in pointing out conformation flaws he/she sees in your horses, and telling you that those conformation flaws are reason for not selling the horse to you. It’s all the same—sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Parmela said:

that my reasoning for thinking so was the length of his back compared to the length of his legs (extreme case here) and then the picture of two of his foals, which appear to have characteristics as well

The traits you described this stallion as having….is that the sum total of what you label dwarf in this case? Because if so, there are huge numbers of dwarves being used for breeding…there are dwarves winning major championships! I still see many horses with those traits in various breeding programs and show win photos from all over the country. Sometimes it may be the dwarf gene, sometimes it may just be poor conformation.

Based on his pics, I would have wondered, but when he also has produced at least two (also based on pics on their site) I'd say there is no doubt...at least for me.

You would have wondered if it really is dwarfism in the stallion, but since 2 foals also have similar conformation, that confirms it for you. The thing is, bad conformation passes on to foals, so the fact that the foals have similar conformation may indicate the dwarfism you suspect, or it may simply be bad conformation that is being passes on. It would seem this case of dwarfism isn’t as cut & dried as was first suggested.

So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth so I often volunteer my services.

Now that statement really comes across as smug superiority! Do you really think that those of us who disagree with you about the right to offer your opinion on another person’s stallion don’t also take an interest or concern ourselves with the welfare of mistreated or malnourished horses (or any animal) we may encounter? REALLY? If you really believe this is the case—and your words imply exactly that!—then you truly are too arrogant for words.

In any case, how does your history of nosing around & trying to help an underfed horse give you the right to critique a stranger’s horse?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

you truly are too arrogant for

Maybe so. Either way, this is how I chose to handle to situation.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Minimor those are my sentiments exactly!

I never really thought that i had the right to slam someone elses breeding program , insult them by telling them that their stallion is a dwarf, or producing dwarfs, or intentionally trying to breed dwarfs (not too sure at this point what the situation really is, seems to change with whatever s needed at that moment.)

Then ask for validation of what a wonderful person i am for telling these people their horses are substandard, and their breeding program was not up to par enough for my mare, on a public forum (that the individuals in question would surely see).

Then when forum members bring up some very valid points to consider, defend myself by saying,

So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth so I often volunteer my services.

I mean seriously??? This is the only defense i would need???

If i defend some malnourished animals, i have the right critique everyone's breeding programs?

 

[slv]

I once inquired on breeding to an outside stallion. This horse is a World Champion Stallion. I was told by the owner and breeder of the stallion that this horse is a little long in the back and their only request was that I send a short backed mare to be bred to him. I totally understand that. One should never "double up" on faults. I would also like to add that sometimes photos do not resize themselves correctly on websites and I have actually seen some sites where the horses look malconformed, but I am sure it is just the photos. I am not saying this is the case in this scenario, but it surely could be. At any rate, the OP has taken quite a beating here on this post. I do feel as though it is so very very wrong to critique and publically slam someone elses breeding program. I totally disagree with anyone that says inquiring on a horse listed for sale to the public gives the seller the right to do this. It is just wrong. Very unethical to say the least. I believe there are people that thrive on hearing "you have so much integrity", "there should be more people just like you", "you walk the walk and talk the talk", so on and on. If you need praise or a pat on the back, try to get in another way, because hurting others doesn't make me feel this way about you at all. Integrity is one important personality trait, but there are so many more traits that have been betrayed in this scenario. I personally would never inquire on a horse that the OP had for sale, under any circumstances after reading all of this. This, to me, is a true case of "Buyer Beware".

 

[Carolyn R]

I'll try to keep this generic enough so that hopefully no one ends up offended.

How would you handle this? Someone inquires on a horse. It's not someone you already know. Their email contains a website, so of course that's something I would check out...even before answering their questions. You see something on the site that is a no-no for you. I'm not talking about abuse or dangerous activity,etc. All their horses look extremely well taken care of, etc. But if breeding is what they have in mind, regarding the initial inquiry, then it's not someone I'm going to sell to.

How to handle this? Probably very nice people; horses look great. But some, let's say breeding decisions, don't look like the best ones. How not to offend? If no breeding was involved, I might consider it.

I'm generally not at a loss, but this one has stumped me.

Wow people, this was Parmela's first post. Coming to her forum family for advice. She only elaborated on it to explain when some got, well, a bit snitty. I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.

Great thing is, while extra cash is nice, some are not in it for the money, meaning a quick sale or a quick flip is not our thing. Buying low, selling high is great in theory, but heck, in this market breaking even is nice. Rarely does it happen when we put all the proper time and care into a horse, but all the money in the world wouldn't matter in some cases.

Parm, good for you. Regret is an awful thing rarely able to be changed, often the outcome is only being able to learn from it.

Trust me, hold out if you have doubt, the right home will come along, one you will feel comfortable with. The good Lord above gave us common sense and instincts for a reason.

 

[Debby - LB]

We all read it Carolyn. The question was "How not to offend?" since she had already made up her mind NOT to sell the horse to these people she got some very good advice on how to bow out gracefully. I feel really, really bad for the person who inquired. I can imagine how I'd feel. The "enlightenment" was uncalled for. There are many, many ways to get the information a person needs to them... and this was not it.

 

[Minimor]

I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.

Did you ever stop to consider than maybe some...many even...have been in the same position? Only thing is--they just dealt with the situation on their own without coming to a public forum for validation? So many people can make their decisions and deal with something like this--maybe in the same way, maybe in a more subtle way without slamming someone else's horse(s)--without needing anyone else to cheer them on and tell them how wonderful and upstanding they are, how much integrity they have. THOSE are the kind of people that I consider to be a class act; those are the people that are to be admired and praised--only they don't need or want praise and admiration for something like this.
However, I will say that I'm glad that this thread was posted; it's told me a lot about some people on this forum--I know who I wouldn't send a potential buyer to (and there are more than one!)--I have a new respect for some, and a new lack of respect for others.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Wow people, this was Parmela's first post. Coming to her forum family for advice. She only elaborated on it to explain when some got, well, a bit snitty. I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.

Great thing is, while extra cash is nice, some are not in it for the money, meaning a quick sale or a quick flip is not our thing. Buying low, selling high is great in theory, but heck, in this market breaking even is nice. Rarely does it happen when we put all the proper time and care into a horse, but all the money in the world wouldn't matter in some cases.

Parm, good for you. Regret is an awful thing rarely able to be changed, often the outcome is only being able to learn from it.

Trust me, hold out if you have doubt, the right home will come along, one you will feel comfortable with. The good Lord above gave us common sense and instincts for a reason.

Carolyn , thank you for your thoughts and opinions, they are valuable to me and i have read them several times.

You are right! Parmela has EVERY right to think of her horse, she can sell to whom ever she wants. She can decline a sale for what ever reason she chooses, Its her horse/her choice. We all agree on that.

But please do not confuse her concern for the well being of the horse/ with her right to critique someone's breeding program, when she has not been ask to do so. Those people did not invite that, they only inquired about purchasing a horse( and i bet they regret doing that about right now)

And then she was asking our approval of her decision to tell these people that their horse was a substandard stallion, and their breeding program was inferior, all put on a public forum( which i am sure these people are aware of).

It is difficult for me to believe that anyone could think that is ok.

Then she justified her expert critiquing of their breeding program, by saying that she helped starving horses that could not speak for themselves.

Really?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thanks again to everyone who responded. It doesn't mean I have to agree with how you would have handled to appreciate your response.

And for those that have emailed me or called or messaged, please rest assured that I do not feel attacked or anything of the sort. But I do appreciate your concern. And yes, I do see a lot of the irony.

The good news is I got some great advice and it gave me a chance to play it over in my head many times before I responded. It's a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion. All are welcome. And if I couldn't take the heat I shouldn't participate in a public forum.

Thanks again!