Ammy poll for amhr

[Sharron]

I for one am AGAINST an AOTE program for AMHR. Why should we pattern ourselves after AMHA? If the Amateur committee should come up with some sort of program, do you think it will be implemented with the huge class list we have now that are MANDATORY for every show to include so everyone can get their points? I for one see this becoming a virtual nightmare trying to keep the points...the AMHRASPC staff is already stretched pretty thin on their "point keeping" with all the shows and the All Stars, Hall of Fame for both registries. I think it will be an impossibility to track these points ( and you ALL know that special year end awards will be the next step, as well as All Star points) without a show program from the Association that will automatically tally points and give the results for the local level shows as well as Nationally. Little do you all know about what goes into the point keeping for all the Amateur awards that are given out for each show, Congress and Nationals...it is a daunting task to say the least that Karen does...I for one stand up and applaud her efforts, as she has no computer program to do these with she does them all by hand...So here's to Karen

and all the hard work she does already for the the AMHR/ASPC Amateur program.

When I started showing, I studied the people in the Amateur and Open classes that were WINNING, and patterned my self after them....I asked tons of grooming, fitting, and conditioning, clipping, farrier work, had those people that were winning assess the horse I was leading. I wanted them to be honest, and not tell me just what they thought I would hear, I wanted to learn how to beat them at their own game....that folks is the name of the game....beating whomever you think is on the top of that perverbial hill...There are those that are serious about competing, and then there are those that it is easier for them to "cry foul" then to go out and really try to learn and work their horses, becoming one with them...Personally... if a person, new to the business really wants to compete, they will learn, ask questions, and apply what they have learned to their advantage...

Flame suit is in place...

Sharron

 

[kaykay]

hi erica

i thought i explained underneath the poll that i wanted level one and two. Ill try to explain better

I dont think we need to do an exact copy of amha. we can basically propose whatever we want. So heres my idea for an amhr aote program

Aote---Amatuer owned trained and exhibited

AOTE Level One --- Novice handler that doesnt have more then X amount of wins. (would have to decide how many that should be??)

AOTE Level Two --- Everyone else LOL

Horse can NEVER have been with a professional trainer/handler. (i dont think the amha rule is strict enough since the horse could have been professionally trained in the past)

Horse can not be handled or trained by immediate family members or any outside person wether a professional trainer or not. Can only be trained and handled by the ammy showing the horse.

Hmm i dont know what else. Anyone have more ideas??

thanks for the support jackie LOL.

Honestly this is only going to affect new mini owners that are trying to show. Its not going to affect me or erica or other people who have shown more then a few years. I think it will get some new faces into the ring.

Maybe the people posting on here against the idea have record attendance at their local shows?? I dont know. Sure not the case in Illinois and other parts of the country. In the 4 short years i have been around i have watched local club membership and local show attendance drop and no new faces. If it continues you will see less mini clubs and less shows. Maybe this wont even help? I dont know, I just figured it could definately help and couldnt hurt anything

 

[Belinda]

First let me say I am for the Amateur's !!

I think maybe adding something like Novice Amateur to get the feet wet , would work.. If those that are just starting do not want to compete againist , Erica, Lisa, and many more that have been showing and DOING THEIR OWN WORK for many years.. Heck there are times I Hate showing againist those Girls

They do a great job with the horses..

But tell me a 100% Fool Proof way of Policing the AOTE

They have not been able to do it in AMHA how would we be able to do it at AMHR ,, The answer is you CAN NOT !! The honor system ,

Well that is great for a few , but then you always have those that try to slip in the back door so to speak

I think adding some kind of class to give Amateurs more to show is great , but I don't think the AOTE is the answer..

JMHO <<lol>>>

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

  But tell me a 100% Fool Proof way of Policing the AOTE 

 

    They have not been able to do it in AMHA how would we be able to do it at AMHR ,, The answer is you CAN NOT !!      JMHO    <<lol>>>

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I agree with this and think in the long run it would lead to more bickering and such but I do think a novice class is a great idea both locally and at Nationals

something like well it was called a maiden class when I was showing and anyone who won a first in any say halter class was no longer eligable- making way for someone else to get a first.. pretty easy to police (compared to AOTE) since the show records are pretty public

maybe something like that

and for me it isnt about being petty that things might be like AMHA it is about me making a choice to show AMHR and the reasons for that as well as many others. The classes are there thru AMHA if someone really wants them?

 

[kaykay]

i for one love competing with lisa and erica!! I was just using them as an example. My first year showing i got a second in yearling filly with lisa taking 1st. I was a pretty happy lady let me tell you. And lisa has taught me so much about showing that i couldnt even type it all here. I cant win for losing today LOL. Seems everything i type is taken a totally different way from what it was intended.

Lisa not everyone can show amha. Where i currently live there are 0 amha shows. so people that live in illinois do not have the opportunity to compete in an aote program. I myself have never shown in an amha show.

Nothing is ever going to be perfect in the show world. Seems we cant even police correct measuring in either registry but it doesnt mean we stop trying or that we cant add new classes because they are too hard to police. Cheaters are always going to be cheaters. Level one in my opinion is very easy to police because these are obviously going to be new faces that you havent seen at the shows.

I really wish some newer people would post on here about this. Currently the only ones posting are the ones with alot of show experience.

Belinda---the only problem i see with only doing a novice class is you are going to get people who can afford to have their horse professionally trained and then go in the ring. My thought was to make it aote to really hook the brand new mini owner that cant afford a trainer

 

[kaykay]

my last post tonight i swear. I have received alot of email about this thread mostly from people too afraid to post. They had some great ideas as above.

Soooooo how about this. We just do a proposal for an ammy level one and two. Take out the aote completely. This would be "tested" at regionals and nationals for the first year or two. Basically it would not add to nationals it would just split up the big ammy classes. It could be done on a point system. Say no one with over 25 points can show in level one. That should make it pretty easy for the ammy committe to track etc.

Any other ideas or suggestions??

 

[Fred]

I really don't think a split like this will work. You are patterning after AMHA. You

have to pay your dues in order to learn, ALL of us who show and love it have!

As for AOTE I train my horses at home but a trainer hauls them to a show for me

because I can't truck them there goes your qualifications right there. A maiden

class might work but I am against level 1 and level 2. I have friends who show

AMHA and they still get confused with it! It will overburden your show managers.

Linda B

 

[js1arab]

OK, I guess I'm just in a cranky mood today but for all who have said it would just make for too many classes....we could always get rid of a few that are geared more toward the open or professionals

Seriously though. Suppose you got the bright idea you wanted to drive race cars. Do you truly think you'd just go buy a car, a pit crew, a travel trailer, spend thousands on travel, food and entry expenses etc. etc. then go right out into a field of 30 speed-crazed maniacs and "learn"? HE** no!!!!! You'd be sitting at the start line peeing your pants just from the sound of the engines starting. Instead, you'd start out with a go cart or small dirt track stock car and a crew full of your family and friends in a beat up old car trailer. You'd learn how to hold your own, then move up from there. Would that make you a whiner who complains because they aren't good enough to compete. I think it just means you wanted to start things at your own pace at a level you were the most comfortable with.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Kay Kay, I think your idea has a lot of potential for bringing new people into the show ring. A place for the first timers to gain some confidence would be super. I know a number of people who would step into the ring if they knew they didn't have to step in with the experienced, right from the beginning. Hope you can make a go of it and I do think it could help sales because too many newbies now feel they wouldn't think of stepping into a class with experienced people....get them hooked and it will only add to the entries at local shows. Mary

i for one love competing with lisa and erica!! I was just using them as an example.  My first year showing i got a second in yearling filly with lisa taking 1st.  I was a pretty happy lady let me tell you.  And lisa has taught me so much about showing that i couldnt even type it all here.  I cant win for losing today LOL.  Seems everything i type is taken a totally different way from what it was intended. 
Lisa not everyone can show amha.  Where i currently live there are 0 amha shows.  so people that live in illinois do not have the opportunity to compete in an aote program.  I myself have never shown in an amha show. 

Nothing is ever going to be perfect in the show world.  Seems we cant even police correct measuring in either registry but it doesnt mean we stop trying or that we cant add new classes because they are too hard to police.  Cheaters are always going to be cheaters.  Level one in my opinion is very easy to police because these are obviously going to be new faces that you havent seen at the shows. 

I really wish some newer people would post on here about this.  Currently the only ones posting are the ones with alot of show experience.

Belinda---the only problem i see with only doing a novice class is you are going to get people who can afford to have their horse professionally trained and then go in the ring.  My thought was to make it aote to really hook the brand new mini owner that cant afford a trainer

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[Frankie]

First, some have commented on it being like, patterned after AMHA.

If it gets more new people in the show ring, who cares if it's patterned after AMHA, ASPC, or the National Cat Society, as long as it works and works well for the members.

If we don't get the new people in there, when we are out on the porch in our rocking chairs, who will be in the ring????

Each year the Mid America Club has an amateur clinic and the attendance is huge. BUT, we never see those new people in the ring, why, nervous, the strength of the farms in our club, not a real class for them to start in.

Our club sponsors the Silver Jubilee and The Julep Cup, we had so many new people begging for a class for them, we did have a Novice Class, there was one entry, just one. Oh, and that was me.

This was a few years back. These two shows are pretty big shows, maybe that scared them off as well. But it was offered, just no takers.

I think the new people really do need more than just a class for them. What we have found to work, is those people keep coming back to those amateur clinics for a few years, attend other clinics and then they have what they need inside of theirself, to take a horse in a ring.

No arguement one way or another here, just a few thoughts.

 

[Jill]

I think that the validity of the point I want to make would vary depending on where you are showing, but from what I remember, the Ammy classes at the AMHR shows I attended in 2004 were not very big. If it were to be split up to have Level 1 and Level 2, then they'd of course be even smaller. I'd rather have to work hard towards maybe 2nd than have 1st be a given if the class was tee-tiny (like of one or two, which is how I'd think it would be). I've been in classes where it was just me and my horse and the ribbons are still as pretty, but you haven't actually accomplished or learned anything.

Plus, by being in the class with a range of experience levels with the amateurs, then it does give you a chance to better reflect on what they did differently that may have helped them, what their horses looked like in terms of build and grooming, etc. I think you notice what you compete against more than what you do not. It's supposed to be competetive, right?

Just a thought.

 

[kaykay]

hi jill

the whole point of this is to bring in NEW people. I think alot of you are missing that one very important point. This is not to help people currently showing. These are people who wont show right now because they are so intimidated etc. Its not that these people arent competitive or lazy or dont want to learn. You guys are really hard on new horse owners!! I was lucky in that when i started showing i had a wonderful family help me and encourage me (the grabow familiy) I seriously doubt i would have ever shown a horse if it hadnt been for them. But most new people dont have that. My thought is if we give them a class where they can show against other beginners AND THEN MOVE UP, we will get some new faces on the show circuit. Its not like you can stay level one forever! Eventually you move up and compete against more seasoned handlers.

Im going to think this over some more and maybe propose it next year. The vote is definately in favor of it even if the posts arent. I think what i will do is call some show managers and see what they think. Like i said around here shows are dwindling like crazy.

A couple years ago tony said something i thought was prophetic. As breeders we have to constantly look for ways to get new outside people involved in miniature horses. We cant only sell to each other! you have to be bringing in new faces. This brings the market back up, brings local show attendance up and just brings in new life.

 

[Ginia]

Well said Kay. I have been watching this with much interest, haven't posted earlier because, unfortunately, I'm not only a Forum "lurker", but also sort of a horseshow "lurker". Love to go watch, but seem to find all kinds of reasons not to get my little 4-legged "goodies" conditioned, trained, clipped, etc., and get my lazy self to the show with them in tow. Even tho I've had minis for a number of years and have shown at some of the more local AMHR show on a sporadic basis, I still feel that I'm at the "level 1" stage. I know your proposal is something I would welcome, both for myself and as a tool for getting future buyers interested in participating in the "show game". I believe that the Carters that just bought Pale Moon could possibly be enticed to get their children involved if we had something like that to offer them at our shows. I personally am hoping you take this issue right on through to completion, and hope that many of those that voted in favor of it in your poll will follow through and give you a little written encouragement.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The one thing I am confused on here is this.. why offer it at local shows and not at Nationals? and if thinking of offering at Nationals well some who want these new classes have already complained that the classes at R were already TO BIG, TO LONG and the show was TO BIG AND TO LONG and not family friendly due to late hours ect so then how would adding more classes help that?

I personally am more then fine with the fact that once a year classes are huge and run late that is what a National show is about- raven is little and lives thru it just fine (of course those kids have more stamina then us old folk

)

I certainly would NOT vote against it however.. I dont see how the 2 problems dont totally contradict eachother for those that have stated the above problems with nationals and now want to add more classes.

And the novice class just to be clear.. even if you have a horse with a trainer.. and you feel that gives someone an advantage once they win a first place they are no longer elegible even if only under 1 judge in a 4 judge show for example- so really it would be a level playing ground meaning no one who has won tons will be in there with totally new people and there is no reason local shows cant add non sanctioned nervvous novice classes to get people in the ring and have those that have shown a bit help them out once in there as well as tips from the judge since it is a non sanctioned class just another thought

 

[kaykay]

hi lisa

i think this thread is getting confusing because im throwing diff ideas out there according to what people have emailed me privately and said on here. I also think people arent reading all the posts because this has gotten so long.

one idea was to get this started we ONLY start with nationals and regionals. If the classes fill up there then start at the local level. Im not sure thats a good idea or not. Kinda conflicted as i think its more important to get people showing locally.

This wont make much diff at nationals time wise as i feel sure many of the people in the ammy class would qualify as level one. So instead of one huge class you have two smaller ones. Probably wouldnt take anymore time then judging one big class.

Also did everyone read the presidents letter in the Journal this month?? There must of been ALOT of complaints about the youth classes being so big and taking so long because he addresses it in his opening letter that extra days and judges are going to have to be added to take care of the youth classes. I was really happy to read that.

 

[susanne]

First, I apologize for not reading all of the responses yet, but I need to take off in a minute...sorry if someone has already addressed this point:

Instead of looking at this as an easy way for newbies to place, I see AOTE as

EXTRA recognition for those who do it all themselves. I would hope and assume that anyone showing in these classes would likely also show in amateur, and many like Erica would also clean up in amateur and open, but this category would be, as I see it. the TRUE amateur competition.

In amateur or open, one gets no note of having done all the work without a professional being involved....the fact that they have gotten to the top on their own goes unrecognized. Yes, indeed, beating out the professionals is a great reward, but even better to also be recognized for one's individual efforts.

(It's too early for me, so I'm not sure I'm making my point...)

I would especially like to see something like this for youth...those like who at a very young age have raised, conditioned, trained and exhibited their own horses. I am in such total awe of these kids and their families. Not in any way meant to put down the lucky kids who get to work with a trainer or breeder, but a youth who has done all of the work themselves should get extra kudos.

 

[Mnmini]

Kay,

I think you're on to something, but not sure that AOTE is necessarily the way to go. It is a little 4-H like in that it discourages folks from seeking out professional help/guidance, probably when they need it the most. Should we be encouraging newbies to break out their own driver? Only in minis/ponies does this sort of thing really happen, and folks "get away with it," so to speak. I am NOT a trainer, so have no personal stake in it one way or the other.

What has worked successfully in the stock breeds to encourage entries by beginners, successfully, is the Novice and Select divisions. Novice is for folks that haven't earned x number of points in a particular division, while Select is for ammies 50 and over. The Selects and novices have the option of showing with regular ammy's (novices can co-enter their novice classes as well, though selects simply have to choose whether they will show select or ammy for that particular class). In AQ there were the initial cries about show length, and ammy class size dwindling, and in some cases both things have occurred. I'm ammy, and while I would love to see a bigger trail or western riding class at times, I also realize that those novices and select exhibitors might not be in my classes even IF they didn't have an alternative! For minis, it might be enough to break down the novice by x number halter points or x number performance points. Say 10 in each catagory. So, while you may be a regular ammy for halter, if you've never earned x number of points in performance classes, you could show novice in those classes until you pointed out. Just a thought.

Another thought for Nationals. Why not have all ammy classes over the ammy weekend? I mean they don't offer obstacle and driven obstacle during the ammy portion since they don't offer those classes in ammy at all (at least at Nationals), reasoning I've heard that "those are the same people that would exhibit in the open class anyway." Umm, not necessarily. I would love to add those classes, but will I wait a week after the end of my ammy classes to get that opportunity? Heck no, though I'm sure other do. I keep waiting for AMHR to have a true ammy all-around award, as in one horse, one exhibitor. Is there any interest in that?

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I dont really see where the attendance has been down at our local (and Im saying Delaware and NC because there are no shows in VA). THe average attendance is 80 to 100 except at the may show which for some reason is less, maybe because it is a 1 day show and also had shetland classes... The NY shows are also fairly well attended. Something else that may help more ammy attendance is for the ammy points to also count in HOF. The reason Im wording my posts more towards nationals is because that is my ultimate goal every year. I only show enough to get qualified because Im on a very limited income and I want to save it for the end. I chose 4-5 horses with promise at the beginning of the year. I show them each at two shows but I usually only take 2 or 3 to a show. Then at time to put entries in I decide for nationals. They are my ultimate goal and the shows in between only the stepping stones to get there. Sorry if that bugs people but thats the way I have to operate.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Jill]

I guess I am one that the point that some might be intimidated was totally lost on! I did not know some people feel that way and I am sorry that they do.

I never showed a horse whatsoever before 2004 and I wasn't a bit nervous even though there were trainers in the ring. I was just trying to do my best. If I got last place, it wasn't going to be the end of the world. On the other hand, I am someone who LOVES public speaking and the bigger the group, the better (but one on one, I am shy -- silly huh?). It's hard for me to understand why someone would feel intimidated if they thought a couple other people might stand a better shot at "winning" than they do. It's an opportunity to figure out why and improve. At the end of the day, especially if you are showing ammy, isn't it supposed to be because you enjoy it?

Plus, the way I look at it, unless like my pants fall down in the middle of the ring, there's not a soul who will be laying in bed that night thinking "Oh my God, did Jill ever make a

out of herself today!"

People are too caught up in what they are doing and as I see it now, there are already lots of chances for people to get out there and show and learn and get better. And, it's not like there are AMHR shows every weekend for people to have a great chance to do a lower level ammy class and get lots of practice in. There are only 5 or 6 within any kind of realistic distance to me.

What I'd recommend to those who want to practice before they try registry shows is do what people in most any pure bred breed people do to prepare -- check out your local open shows. They're closer, not so fussy, and you can get a lot of them in each season. It's also a great way to promote the breed.

I would welcome any kind of additonal chances to show Ammy at AMHR but am not disatisfied at all with the current system.

 

[js1arab]

Yes Susanne I think you did an excellent job of stating your point.

Even in our 4-H level, I would like to see a true backyard horse/pony owners class. Some of these kids truly do all their own work as the most the parents are willing to do is pay for the hobby, they want no part in the care etc. These kids try so hard to do their own brushing and clipping and training, only to walk into a class where other kids have show circuit horses that show at QH Congress and are kept in a stall with a blanket on even in the summer. Of course the back yard horse gets beat. The child has no control over the fact that his/her pony doesn't have the conformation to show, they were happy with whatever their parents could buy and they want to show it to the world. To them it's just as special as any million dollar horse and they put a lot of effort into getting it ready and deserve a chance to be rewarded. There are many adult beginning show people who feel the same. I've been at several shows where someone brings their mini just as proud as they can be -all clipped up, but it has clipper tracks everywhere and not conditioned. These people have seen some shows, knew they had to bathe and clip, but had no one to show them the finer details of grooming etc. They haven't been around the show world long enough to realize that those beautiful horses winning didn't look that way by nature alone. Most people - even if they've seen horse shows etc. have no concept of the amount of work it takes to keep show horses in condition. And I'm not just taking exercise. If you keep them in a stall, there is the daily chore of stall cleaning, plus many have a sweat which need to be checked to prevent blistering, blankets need to be washed periodically etc and so on.

At this point I wouldn't even care to see the AOTE classes at the National. Most beginners aren't aiming that high and if they are, they still have the ammy classes already offered. But the local level is where we need these classes. Places where new owners can afford to get started. How many newcomers do you think we'd attract if we told just exactly what they were in for time and money wise LOL. Start them easy. If they enjoy showing then the rest will come.

A couple posts were made while I was typing LOL.

Mnmini - I think that is what Kay is talking about by level one and two. You'd only get to show at that level until you'd had x amount of wins or like you say , points, then you'd have to move up. And yes I agree it should be also divided by halter/performance. Especially performance!!!!