Can we see pics of minis in training for driving?

[hobbyhorse23]

This kid's got action to burn when he wants to:

And just for fun, a couple of the boys on their first pair drive.

Ground-driving-

First moments of first trot. (A bit tense, but so cool!)

Leia

 

[targetsmom]

Wow - this thread is even better than I hoped for! Thanks everyone. I hope others are getting as much out of it as I am. Love the reminders of what can happen when things go bad.

No pics yet, but I can report that Dancer has progressed to ground driving (with no side reins!)and I am very pleased with how quickly she learns.

Leia - I think on page one you offered to post a video of you training Turbo to yield and flex when you lifted a single rein?? When you get a chance you could you please post that link? I plan to try that.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

No pictures but Spanky is to the point of dragging things (any suggestions on how to best hook them to the harness would be greatly appreciated). This is the first stage of his training that I will be doing, as he was started by Patty Cloke. Darla only knew how to lead, so we have done a few lessons in lunging at the walk, taking it slow because she is pregnant. I hope to have her doing some beginning ground driving soon so we can take them for walks around town to help desensitize to cars and stuff

 

[Melinda Dean]

Hi... I do not show, but I do have fun teaching my minis all sorts of things. I trained my A mini to drive years ago and am starting a newbie now.

Here are a couple of pics taken today. I have a 9 yr. old 30.5" gelding and a 8 yr. old 36.5" gelding that I drive single just for fun around my place and neighborhood. (They are in the first pic, behind the fence). Neither have ever driven double.

Wanting to have a pair, I bought a foal to raise with them and hopefully match up to one or the other. Chester just turned 2 last week. I started training ground manners the day I brought him home, at 3.5 months (a very early weaning, but he was stealing all his mother's food.) He leads well and knows his basic voice commands.

First pic... When he was almost a year old, I started asking him to walk ahead of me on 2 lead lines. (No bit). No problem. Then we added a harness and swimming pool noodles dragging behind him. Still no problems.

The second and third pics are from today. The vet will check his teeth when she does fall visit. Then I will introduce Chester to a bit. For now, he and my Lil" Bit are buddied up and going for long walks through the hood. Chester is closer in size to my B guy, but is learning great working skills from my little guy. Bless him

. He is teaching him to whoa on a dime, stand and wait for gates to be opened, wait for "walk on" command, how to turn slowly. Best teaching assistant I could ask for!

 

[studiowvw]

Thanks for all the interesting pics and info!

 

I'm not very knowledgeable about driving, but Lacey and I seem to be doing ok. We have 5 drives under our belts this fall. She's being very responsive and I'm getting used to the whole setup. So not doing focused training, but getting her to do large circles, fig 8s, large ovals. We can go out through the gate, whizz around the larger field and then come back into the smaller riding ring. I'm quite pleased that we can approach the gate (about 6 feet wide) at a trot, slow down (hopefully to a walk :O) - negotiate the gate without hitting anything, and carry on.

I'm learning to turn her with finger pulses and she is very responsive. Not so responsive in downward transitions but getting better. She would rather trot than walk.

Second last drive was with dead elm trees being felled a few hundred feet away - she was ok with the ATV, tractor, trucks and chain saws, but a bit jumpy when the trees would fall. However, by the end of it she was doing great.

Today I'm having a lesson with a recommended coach about 40 mins away. I'll be driving her large horse today then probably take Lacey next time.

I feel confident enough now that I think a lesson will be useful.

Lacey is 3 this year, had 3 months training with Lori Rafter last winter. Then a disappointing cart purchase truncated our driving plans last spring. Fly season hit, I got the cart functional and sold it, summer heat hit and stayed. Flies were brutal.

I got my second cart ready to go (which I really like, it is light, has a wide wheel base). Drove three times in it then realized that springs are indeed essential, even when driving on flat ground

I'm going to get carriage springs for it and my brother will weld it up.

Then last Saturday I got another cart - it has an elliptical spring under the back of the seat. The gentleman called it a show cart. It has wood on it, wood shafts, EE. It is a little older and could use some spiffing up like painting, but we have had two rides in it and it's going great. Same price as one of those pipe EE things.

Will try to upload a pic.

Here is a question:

I had a young visitor who wanted to try driving in the cart. As Lacey is fairly forward I didn't feel I could just hand the lines over to someone totally inexperienced. In the end I decided to put her neck rope on - which is usually how I lead her. We also have pretty good voice connection, and I felt it was the safest way to do it. When walking, I walked beside her, when trotting we did a large circle with me walking a smaller circle. All went well.

Just wondering how other people approach this situation (seeing as the cart seat is too narrow for two ample bums.) Do you a. NEVER hand the reins to an inexperienced person? b. use a lead rope? c. other?

My visitor did quite well with the reins (with me constantly giving directions). However, Lacey's head stayed high.

When I got back in the cart to do a few rounds myself, Lacey seemed quite relieved to feel my hands again.

I thought that was very encouraging, because when I drove her at Lori's place, Lacey was TOTALLY relieved when I handed her back to Lori, haha! Glad she's getting used to me.

The cart.

Please don't critique the handler's wardrobe, haha

Lacey and my visitor with me and neck rope. Lacey is not clipped. She is a bit tubby. I love her drafty look - she looks a bit like a Haflinger. PS she can put her head down sometimes - I haven't been stressing that - more interested in getting myself familiar with it all, and getting obedience and consistent gaits.

All in all, I am finally living a dream I've had for a long, long time

Wilma

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

In answer to your question about letting an inexperienced person take the reins; I have to say it depends. I have a mature, seasoned horse that I will allow green drivers to try out with supervision. On my green horses I prefer to not let anyone else (unless they are far more experienced than I am, and even then I might hesitate) take the reins. While my horse is still learning what is the expected response and what action/reaction they will be given (each handler as you have noted feels different to the horse- speaks the same language but a different dialect if you like) I don't like them to be confused trying to learn another driver's cues. Once they have the basics down pat, are comfortable with their job and reliable with my handling then I feel they are ready to learn to handle the subtle and not so subtle differences in drivers. I know a great number of horses (your Lacey is one) are started by someone and once they are working fairly well sent on to learn a different driver's (the owner perhaps) feel but in the case of my own horses I will not do green x green.

Lacey is lovely btw.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

Concerning inexperienced drivers taking the reins with my horses:

I do let them drive Dapper Dan. Dapper Dan and I began our driving careers together. He is not a "finished" horse so I dont' worry too much about someone teaching him something bad or ruining the training I'm doing. I let children "drive" him in the sulky while I hold a lead rope. Doubt I would let an inexperienced driver take him in my EE cart without me--too dangerous. I probably would never let anyone take him where I could not supervise the drive, either.

I'd NEVER let an inexperienced driver take my young Dusty. I can't imagine what yanking, jerking, tight/loose, "whoa" when they mean "slow down", and other assorted mixed signals would do to his immature brain! In fact, I've only let two other people drive Dusty; they are both better than I am and I felt he was in good hands.

 

[paintponylvr]

I'm not sure this is the really appropriate place to put this one... this colt is already larger than a mini and several of my Shetlands. He's only 1/2 Shetland out of a Hackney/Arab pony mare. BUT my daughter had pulled him out the other day and put the harness on him that I use on my 38" mare and I thought I might post this.

Sierra is just starting to actually drive - taking lessons from the same gentleman that I took lessons withall last summer. So when I wasn't using my harness, she pulled Comet out and started tacking him up. Comet is only 5 months old, he hasn't been weaned yet. Kinda funny - he's learning to lead and "drive" at the same time. He is wearing a bit - comfortably - but the driving lines haven't been hooked up to the bit. The pics are from his 3rd time wearing harness - Sunday.



We adjusted the breast collar up to where Sierra's fingers are. We also shortened the breeching straps on each side - not so much because it's too low as because I didn't want it on the bottom holes w/ the end of the strap sticking out of the buckle. This harness will not fit him this winter and if we retain him (for now we are - this is the colt that Sierra has decided will take the place of her pony that we sold. I was hoping she'd choose a filly I was already planning on keeping, but...), we'll need to fit him for harness and a cart as a two yr old.

Are the ponies pretty much full grown by the time they are 2? Can we reasonably fit him then or would we need to wait until he's older to make sure of a correct "forever" fit? I believe he'll mature between 12.2 and 13 hh.

Here he is going over a tarp - not fully driving - more lounging.



And here he is stepping off the side of the bridge rather than going straight across (by the time this session was over, he was not only leading across the bridge, but actually driving across w/ Sierra behind him - most of those pics were severely blurred, so...)



This colt's dam was screaming bloody murder for him behind the barn in a back paddock - he wasn't bothered. He's healthy and happy w/ the work that was done with him. He will be weaned in about 2 weeks - w/ 2 shetland colts that are 8" shorter than he is! This harness and "driving" session lasted less than 30 minutes and he was only away from his dam for about 45 minutes - to include walking thru 2 other pastures and being introduced to old horse trailer...

I do have two shetland fillies and the full sister to Comet (colt above) that I'm am currently working with that are two years old. I haven't had the complete harness on any of them yet - maybe this evening. The cremello filly is 37" at the withers - so MIGHT qualify for AMHR registration next summer. She's very petite and refined. The dark dapple filly is currently 39" at the withers - so I don't know what she'll be at maturity. Comet's full sister, Flower, is currently only 1-3/4" taller than Comet. She will mature much smaller than him - maybe about 11.2or 3... I've had a headstalls/bits on all 3, Ive been lounging them with that on. Over the weekend, all 3 also started ground driving by starting on a circle and then extending out w/ lines attached to both sides of the bit - practicing turning and "whoa, stands".

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Wilma your pony looks as happy as anything but I am going hot and cold at the idea of what might have gone wrong. It is not just a matter of an inexperienced pony and an inexperienced driver that sends me cold, that rope round her neck is less than useless- at the best it could have sent her in a circle, at worst it could have dragged you behind a runaway.

PLEASE, please, never, ever do this again.

Would I let an inexperienced driver drive my pony? No, not without me sitting right there beside her.

Seat is not big enough?

It would not happen.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I remember not that long ago a trainer of trotters was put out of business- sued beyond his ability to survive, when he allowed a visitor- at the insistence of a very influential client- to get up on the seat behind a very quiet, schoolmaster, trotter. Horse bolted (do not know why) driver fell out and was killed. Client walked away, trainer was sued for everything he had.

Even with the quietest horse in the world, accidents can and do happen.

 

[Minimor]

Do I let inexperienced drivers drive my horses? Generally no. If the horse is green? Absolutely not. I don't let anyone drive my green horses. There are just too many people that figure they know how to drive, and when it comes down to it they don't--or they may know how to drive but only in a mutton fisted sort of way, and I will not have any of my horses subjected to a driver with mutton fists.

Reminds me of one time when a friend came to visit. She had her own horse and rode dressage--took lessons, rode in competition, talked like she really knew what she was doing. I gave a demo on my little mare Chauncey, who was extremely well trained--she wasn't at a high level of training, but when I rode her she would go very nicely on the bit, light in the bridle, nice round back, hindlegs well under her. I offered the friend a ride. She climbed aboard, jammed her seat down into the saddle, took an iron hold on the reins and demanded that Chauncey move on. The poor horse--her back hollowed, her head went up, her hind legs went out behind. She wouldn't do anything for this friend, and the harder the rider tried the worse it got. Nope, not going there again!!

If the horse is dependable in harness I'll give a cart ride to a visitor, and if that person has an interest in driving I may let him take the lines if I can ride in the cart too. One thing I've found about complete novices, they generally listen to instruction because they haven't a clue what they're doing & so look for some instruction. If they're heavy handed they will usually lighten up when told that they need to lighten their hold. I have to know that the horse is steady enough to accept some rather inept cues before I'll let someone take the lines

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Reminds me of one time when a friend came to visit. She had her own horse and rode dressage--took lessons, rode in competition, talked like she really knew what she was doing. I gave a demo on my little mare Chauncey, who was extremely well trained--she wasn't at a high level of training, but when I rode her she would go very nicely on the bit, light in the bridle, nice round back, hindlegs well under her. I offered the friend a ride. She climbed aboard, jammed her seat down into the saddle, took an iron hold on the reins and demanded that Chauncey move on. The poor horse--her back hollowed, her head went up, her hind legs went out behind. She wouldn't do anything for this friend, and the harder the rider tried the worse it got. Nope, not going there again!!

Nothing like a horse to humble us when we start to really think we know it all.

 

[studiowvw]

"Wilma your pony looks as happy as anything but I am going hot and cold at the idea of what might have gone wrong. It is not just a matter of an inexperienced pony and an inexperienced driver that sends me cold, that rope round her neck is less than useless- at the best it could have sent her in a circle, at worst it could have dragged you behind a runaway.

 

PLEASE, please, never, ever do this again." (Rabbitsfizz)

Yes, I did think hard about it all. There are not many people I would have handed her over to. Just got sucked into other people's expectations, I guess.

The reason I did it this way is because I almost always lead her by the neck rope - she has many miles of trail walks, good voice response and is very sensible.

The other reason I allowed this girl to drive was because she has an automatic love response from my horses every time she comes, including Lacey. Something about her makes them trust her instantly.

If I had read the situation any differently, I wouldn't have carried on. I'm glad I it all went well!!

-------------

Well, I had a driving lesson and it was a privilege to drive the older schoolmaster horse. (Percheron type) We did dressage, including a lot of 40m circles, a course of cones which was cool, and a trail drive & down through the fields. Pretty cool! I think I only ran over two of the cones out of about 15 sets. We used her CDE carriage - great springs. She competes at FEI levels and says her young horse is moving up to Intermediate. (correct term?)

Don't know if her expertise is wasted on me. One side of me says - Geez, why not learn from somebody really good? The other side of me says I am wasting her time being a total beginner.

However, I can not believe the amount of contact required to do this - with feet braced against the front board. She demonstrated the feel as about 5 pounds of pull. I think I was doing about 20 lbs of pull to get him to be "working better" for me. I told her it was really hard work and she agreed.

I have been driving Lacey with light contact and getting great response from her. If I take more lessons, I'll hopefully go on using her horse in order to learn, and try applying what I learn to Lacey. Rather than use that kind of muscle on her. After about 10 years of using the Parelli program, it really goes against the grain

I know in the harness you don't have the seat or legs to aid, but Lacey can pick up the feel when I change my focus, so some of that must be transmitted in feel to her.

I remember a friend who drives telling me: first THINK what you want, then SAY the command, then use the REINS if you have to.

I've set up a circle with quarter marks in the ring, and will practice half halts and looking at the next marker. The lesson did give me some ideas of how to progress.

I've got some recommended books, but there's only so much you can get out of books.

 

[ironbessflint]

She demonstrated the feel as about 5 pounds of pull. I think I was doing about 20 lbs of pull to get him to be "working better" for me.

In both riding and driving, my horses work on a steady but very light contact. I've often found that if I have other people work them, they find they can't get that same "frame" without a LOT of contact. What has actually happened is that there's less finesse in the contact, and so the horse goes against the contact, and the whip/rider then adds more contact, and pretty soon my mare is just pleased as punch because she will always win a pulling contest.

Your foot is ahead of you to brace yourself in the seat for turns and such. It is not there to brace against the contact. Also, with the longer reins of driving (compared to riding), the effects of each rein aid are AMPLIFIED through the length of that rein.

My point is that you're correct that you don't want to apply 20 lbs of pressure to your mare. But in continuing your lessons with the school horse, keep aiming for that 5 lbs your instructor uses.

I'd also not think of it as 5 lbs of pull. Think of your hands as inviting contact, and that five pounds as the limit of what you'll let your horse seek out. While at times everybody does what they have to do, thinking of contact at ALL as "pulling" is setting you up for the wrong feeling, and a sure way to get too much weight in that rein.

One thing that sometimes helps me is - when my hand is closed on the reins and we're trotting along - instead of thinking "half halt, half halt, half halt" and thereby closing closing closing my hand that much more on the rein, think "release, release, release." The difference of thinking seems to transmit a much softer feel to the horse.

 

[paintponylvr]

One thing that sometimes helps me is - when my hand is closed on the reins and we're trotting along - instead of thinking "half halt, half halt, half halt" and thereby closing closing closing my hand that much more on the rein, think "release, release, release." The difference of thinking seems to transmit a much softer feel to the horse.

O, lite bulb moment!! Thank you - I never thought of that, even though I remember quite a number of dressage (riding) lessons.

 

[studiowvw]

In both riding and driving, my horses work on a steady but very light contact. I've often found that if I have other people work them, they find they can't get that same "frame" without a LOT of contact. What has actually happened is that there's less finesse in the contact, and so the horse goes against the contact, and the whip/rider then adds more contact, and pretty soon my mare is just pleased as punch because she will always win a pulling contest.

Your foot is ahead of you to brace yourself in the seat for turns and such. It is not there to brace against the contact. Also, with the longer reins of driving (compared to riding), the effects of each rein aid are AMPLIFIED through the length of that rein.

My point is that you're correct that you don't want to apply 20 lbs of pressure to your mare. But in continuing your lessons with the school horse, keep aiming for that 5 lbs your instructor uses.

I'd also not think of it as 5 lbs of pull. Think of your hands as inviting contact, and that five pounds as the limit of what you'll let your horse seek out. While at times everybody does what they have to do, thinking of contact at ALL as "pulling" is setting you up for the wrong feeling, and a sure way to get too much weight in that rein.

One thing that sometimes helps me is - when my hand is closed on the reins and we're trotting along - instead of thinking "half halt, half halt, half halt" and thereby closing closing closing my hand that much more on the rein, think "release, release, release." The difference of thinking seems to transmit a much softer feel to the horse.

Thank you, that's a very enlightening note.

Very much appreciated!

W

 

[RhineStone]

Don't know if her expertise is wasted on me. One side of me says - Geez, why not learn from somebody really good? The other side of me says I am wasting her time being a total beginner.

After about 10 years of using the Parelli program, it really goes against the grain

Good for you for taking lessons and for your progress! I would not waste your time worrying about if you are wasting the instructor's time!

As an instructor myself, sometimes working with beginners keeps you "grounded", and we also may learn something about how people learn. If the instructor's willing to take you on, go for it. I would so much rather learn from someone WAY above my abilities than someone who might instill habits that aren't going to be applicable or appropriate once you move up the levels.

The amount of pressure COMPLETELY depends on the horse and its handler. I have minis that are "heavy", and ones that you barely touch the reins. I have big horses that are the same way. Regardless, most carriage drivers like a bit more contact instead of droopy "western pleasure" reins. Hardy Zantke says you've "hung up the phone" with a horse when you have no rein contact. And the contact can depend on the circumstances. When my husband showed Angel at Villa Louis, he said it was a good thing he had a "toe board" to brace against, as she was really strong. Back home last week, she was off my hands again. We don't like them on our hands, but he wasn't about to "fight" with her at her first show. If she was a "finished" horse, he might have gotten on her case a lot more until she lightened up ("Hold yourself up for crying out loud!"

:OKinteresting ) Some of that also comes with balance of the horse. They seem to go through heavy stages when they are learning to balance themselves as well as the vehicle and load. Then all of a sudden they will back off your hands. Alax used to be so heavy, my hands would hurt when I was done driving him.

Hands are also something that "develops" over time. I look back at photos of me driving even a few years ago and completely understand why I wasn't getting the performance out of my horses. I wasn't "driving" the horse, but only the tack! My husband and I still are "longing" for the hands of Suzy Stafford or Larry Poulin! We completely understand that it takes "this" (holds hands out in front and wiggles fingers as if "fondling" something you shouldn't

) to REALLY drive the horse well! You can get SOME education for your hands, but mostly it is time on the box seat driving different horses combined with a bit of talent. All the reading in the world won't get the hands you need without experience. See if you can watch some YouTubes of four-in-hand drivers with helmet cams and how they don't even think about what rein to grab and get four horses through incredibly tight spots! That humbles you to realize that you (me, we) don't know squat! (I will try to search for some later. Ran out of time.)

I do have to say that a lot of carriage drivers don't have a lot of respect for Parelli. It is way too "touchy-feely". It is good that there are systems out there that new horsemen can "follow", but when all is said and done with a carriage horse, it seems that the best drivers have more of a "I'm the parent - that's why" demeanor with their horses. We love our horses, but they also need to follow our lead because we said so.

Myrna

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I try to keep the same sort of contact with my drivers as I did when riding- I have got into far too many really bad habits over the years (I am a rein flapper- I admit it!!) so I try to pay attention all the time now.

As with riding horses, though, some horses just do not want contact, and can stay "on the bit" without any pressure at all.

As to wasting an Instructors time- no such thing. The only way you could possibly do that is by resisting learning. Anyone who is willing to learn, or at least open minded about it, is never going to waste anyone's time.

The people that really used to annoy me were the "know it alls" who came with set, preconceived ideas and wished to blame the horse for everything that went wrong.

You quite clearly do not fall into this category so go, learn, and have a blast!

 

[RhineStone]

Want to watch good drivers' hands?

Ride along with Koos de Ronde from the Netherlands





This one is awesome with Boyd Exell from Australia, who won 2010 WEG. The camera must be on his chest so you get to see all the rein movements! http://www.vimeo.com/25772626 Check out the other videos of Boyd while you are there.

Myrna

 

[paintponylvr]

Here is Kechi. This is the 1st time wearing a surcingle, crupper and breeching. The bridle w/ this harness is too large for her, so she's wearing one I braided from haystring. I see that I need to tighten the backstrap and the front hipstrp on the breeching. I have started ground driving her, but this was taken as I was lounging her before hooking up driving lines.

Kechi turned 2 in August and may stay small enough to hardship in AMHR. She's a registered Shetland and is currently 37" at the withers. She's petite (tiny) and has much higher action than most of my Shetlands - really shows here going over the tarp, LOL.

 

[WashingtonCowgirl]

Today Spanky graduated to pulling a tire. I'll try to get pictures up tomorrow, weather permitting