Can you tell conformation under all that hair?

[Royal Crescent]

No way can you tell conformation under winter woolies, esp from a picture and not hands on. Those that think they can are fooling themselves. I have looked at so many horses that looked like another horse under all that hair. I did not like them at all until it got warm enough to get clipped pictures, and they were beautiful. I have seen really poorly conformed horses that looked just the same, so you think maybe they are not too bad under all that hair...until you see them clipped. The amount of hair on various horses varies too. One of mine has about a 3 inch coat, and my filly is about half that. Some coats look fluffier, some look brushed back, some are curlier, some are straighter. And the heads look totally different, you can't see the dish, or how small the muzzle is. You can't judge the tailset properly. The necks look thick and short. So unless you have x-ray vision

, wait until you see a clipped picture

 

[End Level Farms]

I am a person who likes to buy the Diamonds in the hair.

BUT only if I can put my hands on them.

I dont request up to date pictures on horses from 3-15 after and before that I would like more than just glamor shots. For the younger ones to see how they are maturing. And for the older ones to see how they are holding their age.

Now I never share or show the pictures to anyone else other than my family as they are involved in the miniatures and buying and selling the horses is all done on a council type meeting.

All the pros the cons ect and as we talk about each horse we look through the pictures and pick out what we like the best and what we hate the most.

After that is done then we take their faults and put them against our stallions faults and if the faults happen to be the same then we move on as we would basically be guaranteeing that we got those faults once more.

Now that all being said I HATE HATE HATE HATE sending out pictures of my hairy horses. HECK I HATE TAKING pictures of my hairy horses. If people want up to date pictures I try and either clip or tell them Im not sending hairy pictures. Ill send hairy pictures of foals and horses 15+ as those are ones I want as well. But Ill usually at least clip the head and neck of the young horses. But NEVER the ears as it gets toooo cold for the ears. I can cover everything else.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Here she is clipped. Sorry for the poodle cut, but it is still cold here and will be for at least another couple of months. I can put a blanket and neck sweats on her and the barn is heated, but when I let her out to run for an hour or so, she needs to have the hair on her legs and ears.

Under the hair on her legs she is very refined.

She is also a foal/yearling!!

And a refined foal can change enormously in it's refinement as it grows up....I would still state that I would not buy a horse from the first pictures merely because it is not good picture, and I would want to see pictures, at adulthood, of sire and dam.

It is quite simple.

I as a buyer, I would simply not buy if the picture (s) did not show what I wished to see.

As a buyer the first picture showed nothing I wished to see, (and the second showed little more, I have to say, except that she is a nice filly in good condition)

Condition is one thing it is impossible to see under a hairy picture, but when given proper pictures you can see as much , I think, "in the rough" as the same pose skinned out.

 

[Jill]

That girl can really pull off the poodle clip

She is absolutely beautiful

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance, what was your goal for this thread? You haven't convinced me of anything.
If I were interested in your filly, ESPECIALLY a horse that is young and growing, I would still want an updated picture, winter hair and all. If you were to send me that picture. I would ask for several more. A shot from the front, behind,and both sides. A straight on shot, not looking down. A somewhat square horse.

Matt,

You are missing my point. I could send you a million pictures of my hairy horse at all angles and you would still not be able to tell what she looked like. I could have a friend set her up, she could be square, head up neck out and still you would not be able to tell. Heck, you could come out here and put your hands on her and feel all you wanted, but you still would not be able to tell. Here in the colder areas, we feel that it is Christmas when we are able to clip down out horses, because even we can not tell what they are going to look like once clipped. Some pleasantly surprise us, some really dissapoint us, and we have watched these horse grow up.

Many parts of the country do not get as cold as it gets here and I recently bought a horse from Florida based upon hairy pictures, but at least she was not as hairy as they get here, and I was somewhat able to tell what she will look like clipped, but still, even thought she is now here, I can not wait to clip her down to get the overall picture of what I really have. I will be the first to say, I CAN NOT TELL WHAT MY HORSES LOOK LIKE UNDER ALL THAT HAIR.

Yes this filly is a yearling and has lots of hair, but her sire looks just a fuzzy with just as much hair right now and he is 10 years old. He is also an AMHR Reserve National Champion, an AMHA Central Regional Champion and an AMHA World Top 10 (back when our classes were huge!) If you could see him now, you would think he was a plug!

Even with winter hair, IF there are reasonable pictures to work with, I can still tell weather this is a horse that I care to pursue or not.

I beg to differ with you. You could be turning a horse away because you think you know whether this is a horse to look twice at. In the winter, I would not look twice at most of my horses.

Sometimes as we get older, we are willing to say, perhaps we do not know everything, that way, we might not loose out on something that could be wonderful.

If your goal for the thread was to convince people otherwise, you have failed, at least with me. If that horse were clipped and you sent me a picture like that I would not be satisfied.

I did not think that I would ever convice you Matt, only time and age will be able to do that.

I did not set this up to try and show you wonderful pictures of horses all set up and looking beautiful. I did this to say, this horse has lots and lots of hair, so much so, that you can not tell in pictures or even by putting ones hands on her. That the best way to purchase a horse is by summer pictures, many summer pictures.

And a refined foal can change enormously in it's refinement as it grows up....I would still state that I would not buy a horse from the first pictures merely because it is not good picture, and I would want to see pictures, at adulthood, of sire and dam

Rabbitsfizz

You are right a yearling can change quite a bit as it is maturing, and getting a chance to see parents and siblings is important. One of the reasons why I have been updateing my web pages, so that parents are there (if I can), as well as any siblings (if I can).

But still, I could have sent you a wonderful summer shot, heck many wonderful shots of a filly, mare, colt or stallion. I could get you interested and I would guarantee that if you requested hairy up to date shots of my horse with you professing that you could see through all that hair, you would end up turning the horse down.( even if the horse were set up and showing like a dream, many shots of it showing like a dream all angles.

I do not care if I sent you set up shots or free standing shots of an AMHA World Champion, or World Grand Champion or even a World Champion of Champions, you would turn it down with winter shots. (of course, you would have to not know it was a champion of champion so that you were judging only by what you see and not what you think you see or don't see).

As a buyer the first picture showed nothing I wished to see, (and the second showed little more, I have to say, except that she is a nice filly in good condition)

Again, you are missing my point. I did not set this filly up or take a gazillion shots of her to try and show off conformation, but just to show the amount of hair our horses grow. If I were trying to sell her, I would take as many shots and angles as needed, but still, with all this hair, what would it matter?

Many parts of the country we can not clip our horses down till late spring, as it is just too cold here. Canadians have it worse. I made the mistake of clipping a head and neck of one of my horses, cleaned up her ears a bit, but did not take the hair off them. Still, in mid April she was turned out and got frost bite on one of her ear tips and it fell off. So no, we can not even take head and neck clipped shots.

Does this mean that we do not have some beautiful horses up north? No, it just means that one has to go with the summer shots that were taken of any of the horses. Do foals change, yes, do yearlings change, yes, do older horses change, No. But if a foal or yearling changes, you are not going to be able to see those changes under 4+ inches of hair.

FYI, I clipped this girl and another girl down to see which one I wanted to condition and get ready for the show ring. One of these girls will now have to stay inside for several months because she is clipped down, but I just could not see everything I needed to see under all that hair. Which one had the better hip, which one had the better tail set, which one had a better neck set, shoulder layback? Both had pretty heads under all that hair, but which one had the better head? Which one gave me a better all around picture?

I chose the bay filly by Desperado. Though this palomino filly is nice, the bay is that much nicer. Since they are both about the same height, I can not show both.

Perhaps I should post some shots of the bay to try and show you why. She has the better hip, the better shoulder layback, the better head, something one could not tell by feeling a hairy horse or looking at a hairy horse. I would be the last to profess that I could, and I have had many many years of looking and judging conformation (over 40 in dog conformation, 10 years in Morgan horse conformation and 10 years in Miniature horse conformation. In the dog world, I had some of the top dogs in the country, in the Morgan World, my first yearling that went to the World won a Reserve World Championship in halter).

I can tell once they were clipped down. Is the palomino filly a bad filly, no. but I want to show the best that I have. If I were selling both of these fillies and sent you summer shots, then winter woolies, would you have been able to tell which one was right for you?

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Riverdance, I am starving for conformation info and I'm looking everywhere to learn. I for one, would love it if you would post the bay and palomino fillys and show us the difference. If you don't want to post them, would you pm me and show me? I would really appreciate it!

Thanks,

Joyce

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance, I am starving for conformation info and I'm looking everywhere to learn. I for one, would love it if you would post the bay and palomino fillys and show us the difference. If you don't want to post them, would you pm me and show me? I would really appreciate it!
Thanks,

Joyce

Joyce,

I will try and get some updated pictures of the bay. I will have to tie her to a stall and see what I get as I live here alone.

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Thank you! When ever you have time. I appreciate it so much!

Joyce

 

[maestoso]

Riverdance,

Age does not dictate experience. There are people much younger than me with twice or three times or ten times the experience, and people twice my age with a tenth of the experience.

Age will give me more opportunity to obtain experience yes. Which will only educate me more, and will probably enable me to see conformation even better, fuzz or no fuzz.

You have told us that we have missed your point, and maybe that's true. But I think you missed the point of the original thread.

I don't recall anyone saying that they could see conformation based on one picture from a poor angle and awkward position. Nobody said that. But that is all you have provided to prove your point.

Pick another fuzzy horse, provide us with some decent pictures(plural) from good angles with the horse standing square. Then let us have at it. Then show us a clipped picture. If then, we are dead wrong about said horses conformation, then I will put my foot in my mouth and agree that you have proved your point.

 

[sdmini]

Ok I'll share my amusing story from a self-professed expert in seeing through the hair. Emailing the line, "please send current photos, don't worry I can see through the hair. I hate sending hairy photos but will oblige all I can, requested photos sent off. Here comes the reply, "sorry, he's not what I'm looking for". Ok not a problem, would rather people passed on a not sure verses get them home and decide two seconds later they are up for sale. (Burns me big time)

Spring time rolls around and I clip the boy up and post photos...as well as a bigger price as he was n.i.c.e. Here comes the back the expert wondering where I was hiding this one as he was exactly what they were looking for. Uhhh, ya ok.

I guess those in my circle will say you can not see through the hair. I have two, two year olds (yearling are horrible to guess). One has shorter, tighter hair while the other, yes does rival a yak in length and shear mass. There is no rule of thumb to how much hair your minds eye can take off. I've seen some with hideous appearing heads that clipped up to be beauties and cute heads that clipped up to be heinous. Horses with tons of leg hair but fine bones and others that had heavy bones that had little hair.

I guess I just took this thread as a light hearted post on how different they look clipped and no more.

 

[Riverdance]

Ok I'll share my amusing story from a self-professed expert in seeing through the hair. Emailing the line, "please send current photos, don't worry I can see through the hair. I hate sending hairy photos but will oblige all I can, requested photos sent off. Here comes the reply, "sorry, he's not what I'm looking for". Ok not a problem, would rather people passed on a not sure verses get them home and decide two seconds later they are up for sale. (Burns me big time)
Spring time rolls around and I clip the boy up and post photos...as well as a bigger price as he was n.i.c.e. Here comes the back the expert wondering where I was hiding this one as he was exactly what they were looking for. Uhhh, ya ok.

I guess those in my circle will say you can not see through the hair. I have two, two year olds (yearling are horrible to guess). One has shorter, tighter hair while the other, yes does rival a yak in length and shear mass. There is no rule of thumb to how much hair your minds eye can take off. I've seen some with hideous appearing heads that clipped up to be beauties and cute heads that clipped up to be heinous. Horses with tons of leg hair but fine bones and others that had heavy bones that had little hair.

I guess I just took this thread as a light hearted post on how different they look clipped and no more.

Marlee,

Thank you, Exactly my point!! I too have had people tell me that they like the pictures of a certain horse, but want more. Then when they get the hairy shots, tell me no thanks. Then when they see the horse at the World Show, go gaga over him. Of course by that time the horse is a lot more money. By the way, he was sold at the World too.

That is what I started this and the last thread for. To point out that it is impossible. I do not want to send hairy pictures of horses to anyone, as it always kills the sale., and defeats the purpose of all my time and effort to get summer shots. I am thinking that in the future I will not do it. I take the time to get good pictures of my horses when they are clipped and looking good, why would I want to lose a sale because he is now hairy. I figure I have lost the sale anyway, once they even ask for hairy pictures, so why go to the time and trouble?

Of course there are a few who would want to contradict. One even trying to tell me that I did not get the point in the last thread.

Say what

I started the last thread, so who are you (the person who tried to point out that I did not get the point in the last thread) to tell me what I ment?

It was supposed to be more on the light hearted side. That Minis do get very hairy, that MOST honest people will be the first to say one can not tell. But, there have been some trying to tell us all that they can tell. None of these people have ever competed past the local level mind you

My feeling is, until you compete at the World or National level and place at those level, you are not one to say you know it all.

I have and I have also placed, but I will be the first to say I do not know it all and there is always room for learning.

I also can not tell, even with my own horses, just how they are going to look once clipped. SO, if I price them low while hairy, do not be surprised to see the price go way up once they have been clipped down (if they turn out to be good)

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I've been following along on this (and the past) thread and I am the first to agree you really can't tell much about how a horse will look once the winter woolies have been clipped off. It is what makes that spring unveiling such a thrill. I do however still like to get at least one current photo of any horse I am considering (especially if I am buying long distance and won't be there to see it in person) The reason for that is so I can see if the horse looks well cared for and healthy. For that even casual 'pasture' shots do just fine.

 

[Riverdance]

I've been following along on this (and the past) thread and I am the first to agree you really can't tell much about how a horse will look once the winter woolies have been clipped off. It is what makes that spring unveiling such a thrill. I do however still like to get at least one current photo of any horse I am considering (especially if I am buying long distance and won't be there to see it in person) The reason for that is so I can see if the horse looks well cared for and healthy. For that even casual 'pasture' shots do just fine.

That would be fine, I can understand that and would be willing to do that so you can see that they are well cared for and fat. It is the ones who want set up shots with all that hair, that is the killer.

I also understand that in other parts of the country, they may not look so bad hairy, but they do here!! And, as I said before, the filly I bought from Florida, She has hair, not nearly as much as mine do, but still, there are things that I feel I will get a better idea of once she is clipped.

 

[Maple Hollow Farm]

I just wanted to add that I like to see a hairy picture, especially if I am buying from a long distance, this is only because if I am not going to see it in person before the purchase I dont want to be appalled by the horribly fuzzy beast that jumps out of the trailer. I will look at the summer pics for a basic idea of conformation and the fuzzy picture is so that I dont freak when it arrives and I can just reassure myself that there is a gorgeous horse hidden in the hair.

 

[MiLo Minis]

That would be fine, I can understand that and would be willing to do that so you can see that they are well cared for and fat. It is the ones who want set up shots with all that hair, that is the killer.

Actually this is not entirely true either. Many horses can look this fat and fluffy and be almost skin and bones underneath! I am another one that insists on seeing current photos before purchasing. I don't mind having some of last summer's photos and IF they are what I need to see what I am buying I might be satisfied but I would still want a current full body photo of the horse.

I feel that I can to a certain extent see what is under all that fluff but I don't look at the flesh (cause you can't see it anyway) I look at the bone structure. You can see the shoulder from the withers to the point, you can see if a line dropped down her cannon, or a line dropped down the center, sets her up straight - do those toes point out or in, are they base narrow or wide? You can see if she is balanced or not by her shoulder, length of back and where her hip ties in. You can see a nicely rounded croup or one that drops off - in fact it is quite often accented by the fluff. You can see that she has a bit of an overbite and I would want a photo of her bite that is CURRENT (that can change drastically over time). Her neck is of good length judging from her poll to her withers. How slim the throatlatch? Difficult to tell but if her overall construction satisfied me I would be willing to take the chance. If I wasn't satisfied that I could see what I was buying I would turn it down and that is why it is sooooo important to be sure that you do get good conformation photos of your sale horses when they are nicely presented.

Photos of your foals running around in the pasture, clipped or not, (although I do like to see them as they show the possible movement and health of the horse) alone will not be satisfactory to me. This photo would not be either as it was taken in an awkward stance and from above not at her level. There is really no excuse for someone trying to sell horses NOT to have good quality photos of them for judging conformation. If you can't supply the photos, you can't expect to be able to sell your horses. I take the photos first and then put the horse on the market so that when someone contacts me I can reply instantly with what they will need to help make a decision. I use pretty photos to advertise but have the conformation shots ready. If you need help find a friend or pay a neighbor's kid to come over for a day and give you a hand and take all the photos you need.

I am instantly suspicious of anyone that says "there is no point in sending photos of the horse now, it is fat and fluffy" and plain refuse. What are they trying to hide?

 

[Kendra]

My feeling is, until you compete at the World or National level and place at those level, you are not one to say you know it all.

I don't think anyone said they were a "know it all". I also don't think that only the people who show at Worlds have any sort of knowledge worth respecting. And I have, as have others participating in this thread. You asked for opinions, how boring a world would it be if everyone agreed with you!

Last January I received an email requesting current photos of a horse we had for sale ... both side, front, back, teeth, you know the drill. I remember saying to my brother, who was taking the photos, "This is a waste of time, she is NEVER going to buy this horse." I emailed the photos that evening, and when I got home from work the next day had an email and messages on both my home and cell saying she'd take the horse. Which is why I am always willing to take additional photos if someone requests them, because you just never know.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I also understand that in other parts of the country, they may not look so bad hairy, but they do here!!

LOL, I hear you! Mine grow so much hair they don't really even resemble horses and you should see the looks I get from non-mini people when I tell them these are show horses and actually do quite well in the ring.

lol . Unfortunately it is not all that funny because some people leave with a poor impression of what a decent quality miniature can be all because they only saw them mid winter (or worse right after the shedding has begun in earnest) I always like to share my miniatures with new people but sometimes I'd rather they just stay away until the horses are in their summer coats.

 

[Riverdance]

My feeling is, until you compete at the World or National level and place at those level, you are not one to say you know it all.

I don't think anyone said they were a "know it all". I also don't think that only the people who show at Worlds have any sort of knowledge worth respecting. And I have, as have others participating in this thread. You asked for opinions, how boring a world would it be if everyone agreed with you!

Last January I received an email requesting current photos of a horse we had for sale ... both side, front, back, teeth, you know the drill. I remember saying to my brother, who was taking the photos, "This is a waste of time, she is NEVER going to buy this horse." I emailed the photos that evening, and when I got home from work the next day had an email and messages on both my home and cell saying she'd take the horse. Which is why I am always willing to take additional photos if someone requests them, because you just never know.

I do not feel that everyone should agree with me, but please talk with experience. And yes, not everyone has to be a World or National contender to have knowledge and yes, not every World or National contender knows what a good horse virses a bad horse looks like. But at least most of them are trying.

I guess I let my frustration get away with me. But when one talks like they know everything and is not willing to say perhaps they do not know, and when one goes on line to see if perhaps they do know and find that the horses they own are not of a quality that would do well anywhere but perhaps local shows, I get frustrated. How are people to learn if one goes on line spouting words of wisdom when in reality, they do not know.

I also get frustreated when I have someone who really likes a horse that I have in a summer clip and then decided that they do not like the horse in all his winter glory, only to tell me later, they should have bought the horse.

You were very lucky that the person bought your horse. I suspect that does not happen too often.

And yes, there are many out there that have lovely horses that do not show. But please, we all want to learn and grow with our knowledge. I never said I know it all, and I have said that I am one of the first to ask questions. I am always trying to improve what I have and always will. That is how I got to be one of the top Tibetan Breeders out there. Even after 30 years of breeding Tibetans, I am still learning and asking questions. I am also willing to teach what I have learned to anyone willing to ask. It is just some, that feel they know it all that are never willing to ask that frustrate me.

You can see the shoulder from the withers to the point

It depends on how hairy a horse is, mine get so hairy I can not ven see the shoulder, the point or the withers.

You can see a nicely rounded croup or one that drops off

Again, not with the hair my horses have. They have so much fluff, that it looks like I stuck them in a light socket and poof went their hair. Someone early on said that my filly looked like I combed her hair forward to make her look more fluffy. I did no such thing, just pulled her in from the paddok, tied her up and shot a photo.

Granted, you can tell front, rear and teeth shots at any time of the year. But I am looking for more than that.

Her neck is of good length judging from her poll to her withers. How slim the throatlatch?

Does she even have a throat latch? Lenth of neck is hard to tell when all the hair is at least 4" long. To me she looks like she has a fat stubby neck in the hairy shot.

If I wasn't satisfied that I could see what I was buying I would turn it down and that is why it is sooooo important to be sure that you do get good conformation photos of your sale horses when they are nicely presented.

I agree, and why I take all my photos during the summer when one can see all of that.

I am instantly suspicious of anyone that says "there is no point in sending photos of the horse now, it is fat and fluffy" and plain refuse. What are they trying to hide?

I for one, and many others, I would assume, are not trying to hide anything, we just know from experience that it is too hard to tell. If you liked the horse when its photos were taken in August, then you should like the horse in January. What can go wrong in only a few months, except for injuries. (talking now about older horses, as, who knows with a yearling)

 

[KTS@Sawmill River]

Riverdance,

I have been following your "clipping out" threads but have not posted anything. Yes, there is a drastic difference between hair and no hair, but I believe that you can see what a horse looks like to a certain extent with their coats on.

We also live in a cold area, Massachusetts, but not as cold as where you live. I have some furry yaks in my barn, and I am currently working 17 for the show year. I have to strictly go off of what I see with their coats on, as I will not be able to clip until April. I have 2 yearlings in the barn that have never been clipped, but even with their shaggy coats, I can see what I have. 99% of the time, if you have a horse that looks good with long hair, they will clip out to look similar to what you envisioned. A little different from your opinion, but thats ok, I respect that.

Now, as far as age dictating experience...... I am 19 years old and have been in the mini industry my whole life. I walked into my first rated AMHA horse show when I was 3 and have been to the World or National show for the past 10 years. I have observed the techniques of many pro trainers, and asked so many questions that it has made my head spin. No, I do not know everything. I do not claim to be a know it all, and even though I have won a few world titles and some National titles, I do not believe that gives me the right to say I know it all or push my opinion on everyone else. Everything with training routines, clipping etc. is based purely off of an individuals opinion.... I have found that there is rarely one right answer, and someone can spend a lifetime learning, but still not know everything.

Respectfully,

Kristina

 

[kaykay]

I have to say Im kinda amazed this thread has gotten so heated. Im really taken back by some of the comments on this last page wow they are kinda mean spirited for a subject that really is not that controversial. To each their own you know.

I do think seeing structure on a horse in winter coat is harder when they are the smaller minis but you can still usually see the basic structure. If you have been doing this awhile you do get to where you can "see" what is lurking under a coat. I just visited a friends barn full of furry yearlings. And yes you could definitely tell which ones were extra special even in winter coat. I would not have hesitated to buy one last weekend in winter coat if the one I had wanted had been for sale. But unlucky for me the one I fell in love with is not for sale LOL.

I do think this is much harder for people newer to the miniatures to see. this is why they sometimes think a horse is heavy in winter coat when in fact they are too thin. I dont even have to feel them to know usually just looking tells the picture. Especially horses with un thrifty looking winter coats is a big clue that the horse is not at good weight and is not thriving.