Color questions... We really need your help!!

[shoeboxstables]

So.... I have two horses out in my paddock who's colors.... well... I have no clue what's going on. So, I took some new photos, and have presented them to you all for help!! They are a mother/son pair

PLEASE NOTE: THESE ARE NOT THE MOST CONFORMATIONALLY PRETTY PHOTOS!! OH! Just ones that show the colors

First, mom.

Annie.

the amazing color changing horse.

Her mom is listed as a 'Bay/White Pintaloosa'. Here are some photos:

http://www.darkmoonfarm.com/images/mares/star-rt.jpg

http://darkmoonfarm.com/newimages/mares/star_sm.jpg

I have no clue what her sire looks like

but if it helps, her pedigree is here: http://www.shoeboxstables.com/horses/annie.html

There is a lot of Appy there.

Now, Annie was born bay:

but a bit strange. You can't see it- but she has almost a 'dorsal stripe'- but not really. It is a dark blotch on top of her hindquarters, that thins into a dorsal stripe. If you look behind her ear, you can see the darker portion.

This is a horse that I'm 90% positive is her half brother. He has it too:

http://darkmoonfarm.com/images/4sale/2142k2-foal1.jpg

When I met her, as a yearling, she was UGLY. She was shedding out her bay, and was half gray-colored. The gray was a medium-gray. She didn't have her dorsal 'thing' anymore.

When the brown coat was fully gone, she kept the brown mane and tail for about a year or so. When she was three, she was almost completely brown-free. Her tail made a sudden change, from brown to gray. Her body adopted a very light, light gray, with darker points (but not a very dark head). You can see that here:

This is the lightest she has ever been.

Then, she got a little bit darker, more like when she had just shed her bay:

And she changed more. She started developing some mottling. After all, she has a lot of appy up there. She's always had striped hooves, and now she has mottling. A spot actually developed on her back. It was black, and about the size of a quarter. It only stayed for a year and half

.

And some more change occurred:

That is winter fuzz clinging to her belly. See the difference?

Over the summer (you can see the mottling here!):

Now, she's changed still!! These were taken today:

Her mane has all three colors- brown, black, and a silver-gray. Her tail is the same

So.... ummm... what color is she?? OH!

[more to come.. too many photos in one post]

And now, her son.... Roger.

Roger's dam, is of course, Annie above. His sire is a palomino.

His dad's side has mostly bay-based horses, plus a perlino. So he doesn't appear to be carrying anything crazy.

Roger's pedigree is here: http://www.shoeboxstables.com/horses/roger.html

So.... when Roger was born, he was a cute little buckskin. Easy enough. Got the dilution from dad, and the brown/augoti from either parent. No apparent appy or anything.

But then..... he contracted Annie's mysterious butt/dorsal stripe gone wrong.

See it there? on his butt? It started small...

But then it grew...

So we clipped him, and he looked like this. Note how it's grown on his back.

And then it kept on growing!

And so he got clipped again. The brown had almost enveloped him!!!

but then winter set in, and he grew his fuzzies. And things got even stranger..

I took these photos today. There have been a LOT of changes!! He's gotten mottling. Big time! And striped hooves.

As you can see, his color is very stratified. And very varied.

He now has what we call 'shin gaurds'... That dark brown is ONLY on the front of his legs..

The dorsal blob is BIG:

.

I mean it really is like a dorsal stripe gone wrong. It reaches all the way up his neck...

and onto his face.....

and back down his butt. Note his 'mottling'... it's like spots! I mean it goes down his butt!!

Now, if you look at him, he has three distinct colors working on him:

This one on his 'dorsal blob' (DARK, with a few silver undertones):

This one around his ribs (medium tips, with DARK undercoat (some dark color as dorsal blob)):

And this one on his belly (cremey silver all the way through):

And now, he has this creme colored ring around his eye. It's not just colored skin, like on a normal mottled skin app- it's creme hair!! And he now has a mealy mouth!

So what the h*ll is going on???

OH!

These two never fail to amaze me with how they change....

I just want to know what's going on! And what to expect!!

 

[Contessa]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh73/rustystarss/022.jpg My two year old was also born a bay and look at her color now. Her dam was a bay also BUT her sire was a gray which is why she is turning colors. Last summer she got lighter gray but as her winter hair came in-she got darker and more blue again. I'm told that each spring she will get lighter and lighter until she is almost white. Is it possible you have a gray gene in there somewhere? I used to have regular sized Appaloosas (twenty years ago) and those guys changed colors somewhat as they got older also. IMO it is a gray gene or "just something appies do".

 

[MyFriendFlicker]

Holy cow!! I'm dying to see what people have to say about this. What crazy changes!!

 

[Mona]

I would think your mare is a bay varnish appy, and the colt is a buckskin (smutty, or some people say smokey seal brown) appaloosa.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Mare is definitely varnish roan appy

You can spot a varnish by the darker 'V' on their nose compared to the rest of the face

Colt I would say is a smutty buckskin, and with the look of his face in the latest pics, looks like he's starting to varnish out as well..

Here's our varnish roans:

Grulla varnish snowcap:

Black varnish near leopard overoloosa:

Black varnish snowcap:

as foal:

after clipping:

yearling winter:

Bay varnish snowcap:

Foal:

yearling:

Year 1/2:

2-year old:

2-year winter:

 

[shelia]

The mare is a varnish roan appy. She did not inherit the genes to make a white blanket, but did get the genes for appy roaning. You may get a different looking horse every year. The Lp gene will sometmes change the color of blacks to brown and sometimes the other way around. She will most likely stay a little lighter each year even if there is no grey gene involved.

The colt is buckskin and appy, again with no white blanket. His buckskin color can change just because he is a buckskin. What you call a dorsal stripe is what is known as a sooty buckskin. Since we know he has appy because of the spots on his skin on his butt, he may also change quite a bit over the years. Some appys roan a lot and some don't. You never know what you will get from one year to the next.LOL!

They are both beautiful!

Shelia

 

[Warpony]

I am no help on the colours but I have to tell you that the term "Dorsal Blob" made me laugh so hard I got the hiccups, lol. Love it.

 

[xxs]

Wow, Annie..that is quite some coloring they have going on. Here is what I think about it,but, I'm no expert for sure!

The mare does look like a varnish roan...except she isn't showing much in the way of varnish (darker hair) except on her face. It "should" be on all the joints. I couldn't see her pedigree to see what colors she has behind her, but my mare, Sabrina, isn't varnish...but she is roaned Appy . She has a frosted blanket so she was probably un-colored at birth. She is also a true roan as evidenced by how she sheds out her bay in the Spring, and is white for awhile until the white sheds out..then she is back to her frosted bay. The way I know she is also a true roan is that she had a black true roan filly by a non roan stallion. So, if your mare ever has a true roan foal, then you will know for sure.

Your colt looks sooty buckskin Appy with counter shading on his back. That silver hair under that looks like spots coming in to me. Also, the light belly, mealy mouth and eye circles look like pangare .

 

[Ashley]

I agree with Mona

 

[shoeboxstables]

Thank you all for your input!

I did some research on the colors you all suggested, and it definatly looks like Annie is a bay varnish app. (Thank you Lucky C for posting your photos!). It's strange to call her a bay though!

Now Roger I don't quite understand. He definatly looks like he has 'pangare'- but is that seen from birth? He's only just started showing it at one year. Plus, Annie def. doesn't have it, and his sire doesn't either...

I mean, 'pangare' is a genetic term, correct? Not just a phenotypic term? Can I expect this to stay?

I agree, he looks like the sooty buckskins I've seen photos of. What exactly is countershading? And will it ever go away or smooth out?

He looks like of silly with the harsh line he has right now

Is it a variation of a dorsal stripe, or unrelated? He doesn't have any leg barring (well- he has his shin gaurds). And what's causing the shin gaurds?

What color changes can I expect in the future from him? And what genetically makes a sooty buckskin different from a regular buckskin? Do buckskins normally change so much?

Knowing that the only appy he has most likely only comes from Annie, will he varnish-out (sorry if that's not a technical term!) too? Annie changed in the summer of her yearling year- which for Roger has already passed....?

Thank you all for your replies so far! I'm glad the dorsal blob made you laugh War pony

That's what it is!! I'm really learning a lot from this

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Honestly, IMO, your colt is a varnish roan app.. If you compare your mare's face and my mare's face to his latest picture you can see he's got the dark areas similar to their's and the lighter areas like their's.. You can also see in the winter coat pics I posted that our varnish horses have the similar 'mixed' coats like your colt, with the lighter under and darker tips or vice versa.. I bet come clipping you will be VERY VERY surprised at what you find underneath..