Defects. deformities, normal, etc.
- Thread starter Becky
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
Wow. Since when is discussion and concern labelled HYSTERIA or FIXATION?? And that is applauded and high-fived??
I have seen NONE of that... only concerns and opinions.
And yes - look back at some of the foundation stock in a non-defensive frame of mind - and tell me what you see.... some are obvious - some are suspect. And when you start from such a small gene pool - well, common sense dictates that some traits would spread.
There are different kinds of dwarfism - and nootka's recent discussion of her minimally-expressed filly was neither hysteria or fixation... merely an open-minded attempt to educate and discuss. And yes - I do think there are minimal dwarfs. As with any genetic flaws, dwarfism can likely be expressed to varying degrees in the different types.
We are the guardians of the breed - and it saddens me to see discussion about a very real issue labelled as hysteria etc. IMO it is anything but...
Without open discussion and sharing our concerns - no one learns. And it seems that is the way many want it. Fine. Okey-dokey. Let some of us discuss - and those who are not prone to such histrionics and foolishness can simply scroll by... and carry on.
But anyway, yes - there is simply bad conformation - but a horse with bad conformation should not be chosen for breeding stock, any way.... no matter what breed it is - or what size.
And in minis SOME aspects of bad conformation MAY be a sign of dwarfism. Is it wrong to examine this and be concerned and talk about it? NO.
When even the most refined show champion can carry the gene hidden away.... we do need to talk about it - and not lapse into terms like hysteria, fixation and feeding frenzy.
At least some large-scale breeders are honest - and admit to their dwarfs. Tony should be applauded for being forthright and open. Others claim they have never had one... and to some of those claims I say a sad... oh really? At some point the percentages will catch up to any large herd - and when horses from said herd have been discovered to be known carriers... well... whatever.
[SIZE=8pt]A lot of SSS, methinks... [/SIZE]
If CONCERN is deemed to be "hysterical" - well, then so be it... but when dwarfs may show up unexpectedly anywhere - no matter what lines are involved ... we need to talk about it IMO.
I have seen NONE of that... only concerns and opinions.
And yes - look back at some of the foundation stock in a non-defensive frame of mind - and tell me what you see.... some are obvious - some are suspect. And when you start from such a small gene pool - well, common sense dictates that some traits would spread.
Well Becky - I have read ALL the dwarf threads and participated in them and I saw no such "general consensus". NO ONE said such a thing. A dwarf head is not "pretty". And it is NOT the AMHA standard. A lot of what you described may be a cause for concern - especially if they all appear in the same horse.
There are different kinds of dwarfism - and nootka's recent discussion of her minimally-expressed filly was neither hysteria or fixation... merely an open-minded attempt to educate and discuss. And yes - I do think there are minimal dwarfs. As with any genetic flaws, dwarfism can likely be expressed to varying degrees in the different types.
We are the guardians of the breed - and it saddens me to see discussion about a very real issue labelled as hysteria etc. IMO it is anything but...
Without open discussion and sharing our concerns - no one learns. And it seems that is the way many want it. Fine. Okey-dokey. Let some of us discuss - and those who are not prone to such histrionics and foolishness can simply scroll by... and carry on.
Katjean - you are missing the point - or simply choosing to belittle it - I am not sure.
But anyway, yes - there is simply bad conformation - but a horse with bad conformation should not be chosen for breeding stock, any way.... no matter what breed it is - or what size.
And in minis SOME aspects of bad conformation MAY be a sign of dwarfism. Is it wrong to examine this and be concerned and talk about it? NO.
When even the most refined show champion can carry the gene hidden away.... we do need to talk about it - and not lapse into terms like hysteria, fixation and feeding frenzy.
At least some large-scale breeders are honest - and admit to their dwarfs. Tony should be applauded for being forthright and open. Others claim they have never had one... and to some of those claims I say a sad... oh really? At some point the percentages will catch up to any large herd - and when horses from said herd have been discovered to be known carriers... well... whatever.
If CONCERN is deemed to be "hysterical" - well, then so be it... but when dwarfs may show up unexpectedly anywhere - no matter what lines are involved ... we need to talk about it IMO.
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nootka
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I am not hysterical at all.
The ONLY hysteria I've seen is from one person who thought that anyone pointing out that all TWO of their breeding program were possibly dwarfs, one of them is for sure based on the photos and the other was a concern, but that was not done to "ruin" them, but to educate them as to maybe they could make better choices and for sure to look VERY carefully at the prospective stallions.
Let's say, for example, that my filly on the Photo gallery did not have the severe underbite (which to me, sealed the no breeding deal anyway) and she had only the domey head, the boxy hooves and the heavy bone for her height.
I may well have sold her as a potential broodmare for someone who wanted to try and sift through the genetics and find the right stallion.
What they would have wanted to do was to avoid a stallion with ANY leg angulation deformities, and one that was truly refined, close to her 30" height with absolutely no other indicators of dwarfism (and yes, there are horses that don't have them, but then again, there are many that have one or two they share with dwarfism, does not MAKE them a dwarf). The only thing that has been done is not to call her a dwarf or have some "witch hunt" (which to me, throwing that term around is making people close their minds with a ridiculous snort, not a learning situation), but to educate themselves to making a better choice for breeding, one with less chance of a dwarf birth and overall, even if you ignore dwarfism, a better-proportioned, better conformed horse in the end, which is what we are ALL breeding for.
Heavy-boned does NOT a dwarf make, but I guarantee you if you add that to a horse that shows the other deformities like my filly, you are likely playing with a dwarf gene.
Look at dwarf anything mammalian. It shares a bone structure very similar in that they have the same density or thickness of bone, only much shorter than the parents or parent. I am not passing judgment on short humans or anyone's "children" only pointing out that we are stewards of the breed of Miniature Horse and our responsibility lies in continuing to educate ourselves.
Not anything short equals a dwarf. NOONE said that. I never did. I merely state that there are far less in the 28" and under category that are proportionally correct, so the job of the breeder is that much harder.
It is a huge responsibility and I am sure one must be very vigilant to avoid dwarf characteristics in that category simply because so many dwarfs were being used.
Look at Komokos Little Champ for example on the Komokos thread. He was a dwarf, but he also carried a "normal" gene obviously as did some of the mares he bred. Many of his offspring appear normal. Still others look less dwarfy than Champ did.
Dwarfs CAN have normal offspring, but should they?
That is for the individual breeder to decide. My hope is that we as breeders will be honest about this and share with potential buyers what the genetic makeup is, and let them decide.
No hysteria, no panic, just keep learning. Dont' go out and give away all your breeding stock because this one has a domed head and that one has an off bite (there are many threads on that one and sometimes this is NOT genetic), or that one is heavy boned, etc. If that were so, we'd ALL be done.
HOWEVER, this is why I truly believe that proven parentage and research of that parentage is very important mostly the direct relatives, but please, don't panic or jump to conclusions, just please...keep open minds and learn and ask questions if you dont' understand.
Don't point fingers and assume, and don't make accusations. We're ALL at stages of learning, none of us knows it all, least of all me.
Liz
The ONLY hysteria I've seen is from one person who thought that anyone pointing out that all TWO of their breeding program were possibly dwarfs, one of them is for sure based on the photos and the other was a concern, but that was not done to "ruin" them, but to educate them as to maybe they could make better choices and for sure to look VERY carefully at the prospective stallions.
Let's say, for example, that my filly on the Photo gallery did not have the severe underbite (which to me, sealed the no breeding deal anyway) and she had only the domey head, the boxy hooves and the heavy bone for her height.
I may well have sold her as a potential broodmare for someone who wanted to try and sift through the genetics and find the right stallion.
What they would have wanted to do was to avoid a stallion with ANY leg angulation deformities, and one that was truly refined, close to her 30" height with absolutely no other indicators of dwarfism (and yes, there are horses that don't have them, but then again, there are many that have one or two they share with dwarfism, does not MAKE them a dwarf). The only thing that has been done is not to call her a dwarf or have some "witch hunt" (which to me, throwing that term around is making people close their minds with a ridiculous snort, not a learning situation), but to educate themselves to making a better choice for breeding, one with less chance of a dwarf birth and overall, even if you ignore dwarfism, a better-proportioned, better conformed horse in the end, which is what we are ALL breeding for.
Heavy-boned does NOT a dwarf make, but I guarantee you if you add that to a horse that shows the other deformities like my filly, you are likely playing with a dwarf gene.
Look at dwarf anything mammalian. It shares a bone structure very similar in that they have the same density or thickness of bone, only much shorter than the parents or parent. I am not passing judgment on short humans or anyone's "children" only pointing out that we are stewards of the breed of Miniature Horse and our responsibility lies in continuing to educate ourselves.
Not anything short equals a dwarf. NOONE said that. I never did. I merely state that there are far less in the 28" and under category that are proportionally correct, so the job of the breeder is that much harder.
It is a huge responsibility and I am sure one must be very vigilant to avoid dwarf characteristics in that category simply because so many dwarfs were being used.
Look at Komokos Little Champ for example on the Komokos thread. He was a dwarf, but he also carried a "normal" gene obviously as did some of the mares he bred. Many of his offspring appear normal. Still others look less dwarfy than Champ did.
Dwarfs CAN have normal offspring, but should they?
That is for the individual breeder to decide. My hope is that we as breeders will be honest about this and share with potential buyers what the genetic makeup is, and let them decide.
No hysteria, no panic, just keep learning. Dont' go out and give away all your breeding stock because this one has a domed head and that one has an off bite (there are many threads on that one and sometimes this is NOT genetic), or that one is heavy boned, etc. If that were so, we'd ALL be done.
HOWEVER, this is why I truly believe that proven parentage and research of that parentage is very important mostly the direct relatives, but please, don't panic or jump to conclusions, just please...keep open minds and learn and ask questions if you dont' understand.
Don't point fingers and assume, and don't make accusations. We're ALL at stages of learning, none of us knows it all, least of all me.
Liz
Good post Becky, however I dont see the 'hysteria' either.
I see some good serious discussion from people who are concerned enough to breed the best they can, and to avoid some of the possible problems that can occur, and are willing to discuss touchy subjects in an effort to thoroughly educate themselves.
I remember 'back in the day' the word 'dwarf' was not even allowed in discussion and NOBODY would admit to have had one. Not even the big farms with dozens of foals per year, and when the dwarves were born, they were immediately put down and no one knew they ever exhisted. I know a couple of folks that had dwarf foals by a sire and dam that didnt even come close to exhibiting ANY characteristics, but it happened.
I also had a friend who bought her first two Minis from a long time breeder here, came home with a mare that does exhibit one or two characteristics, and because she didnt know, bought the mare as a broodmare with the breeders (seller) approval and this mare produced a tiny dwarf who only lived a little past her first birthday. She was a great pet and adored by all, and a very expensive lesson. MANY unfavorable and MEAN comments to say the least, were going around because she did not have the foal put down immediately and actually went 'public' with it. This friend did months of research on dwarfism, not just in horses, and had an article appear in an old MHW entitled 'Snow White had Seven'. I have forgotten the exact number, but she found out that there was over 200 or 300 known dwarf characteristics!!
As Miniature breeders who care about bettering the breed, new folks that are searching out their first pet, or someone just looking for a healthy driving animal, this subject is something that should never be hidden under the rug again, and people DO need to be aware of it- just like the HYPP in a QH line and some of the things that other breeds can have/carry.
People will not be educated by hiding the subject or not discussing it- I think that myths and nontruths only become more exagerated then as folks have no where to go to get the facts and real information and are uninformed. Uninformed people will end up making mistakes that could have otherwise been avoided.
I do not see this as a 'turn off' for new folks reading this board, but a chance to learn about this wonderful breed that we all love and make wise desicions in their purchases or breeding or whatever venue they pursue.
I see some good serious discussion from people who are concerned enough to breed the best they can, and to avoid some of the possible problems that can occur, and are willing to discuss touchy subjects in an effort to thoroughly educate themselves.
I remember 'back in the day' the word 'dwarf' was not even allowed in discussion and NOBODY would admit to have had one. Not even the big farms with dozens of foals per year, and when the dwarves were born, they were immediately put down and no one knew they ever exhisted. I know a couple of folks that had dwarf foals by a sire and dam that didnt even come close to exhibiting ANY characteristics, but it happened.
I also had a friend who bought her first two Minis from a long time breeder here, came home with a mare that does exhibit one or two characteristics, and because she didnt know, bought the mare as a broodmare with the breeders (seller) approval and this mare produced a tiny dwarf who only lived a little past her first birthday. She was a great pet and adored by all, and a very expensive lesson. MANY unfavorable and MEAN comments to say the least, were going around because she did not have the foal put down immediately and actually went 'public' with it. This friend did months of research on dwarfism, not just in horses, and had an article appear in an old MHW entitled 'Snow White had Seven'. I have forgotten the exact number, but she found out that there was over 200 or 300 known dwarf characteristics!!
As Miniature breeders who care about bettering the breed, new folks that are searching out their first pet, or someone just looking for a healthy driving animal, this subject is something that should never be hidden under the rug again, and people DO need to be aware of it- just like the HYPP in a QH line and some of the things that other breeds can have/carry.
People will not be educated by hiding the subject or not discussing it- I think that myths and nontruths only become more exagerated then as folks have no where to go to get the facts and real information and are uninformed. Uninformed people will end up making mistakes that could have otherwise been avoided.
I do not see this as a 'turn off' for new folks reading this board, but a chance to learn about this wonderful breed that we all love and make wise desicions in their purchases or breeding or whatever venue they pursue.
Katiean
Well-Known Member
I wasn't belittleing anything. I just think that you can take "ANY" Mini and just say it is 27"-29" (it could be bigger you just say that is the height)and someone will say it is a dwarf. They will point out some feature they don't like and call it a dwarf feature. Thats what I was saying "What happened to just bad conformation?" I think so many new mini people are really getting confused by the Dwarf talk. Don't get me wrong. Bad conformation should not be bred either. But, not everyone is going to like the same horses. If I had my choice I would blend both my mares. I don't know how to post a pic or I would post pics of my girls. My avatar is my colt. Does he have a dwarf head? Oh and I had someone "ASK" me to breed to their stud and he WAS a dwarf. My thoughts were "You have got to be kidding"
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L
Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis
Guest
I have to say some of my passion on this subject is cause I had a dwarf born here. We bought a mare bred to a Res National Champion halter horse . His first foal crop produced more then one dwarf and when I look at grand get I see something "funky" there even in those B size horses not dwarfs just something funky.
I learned alot thru sadie and consider her a blessing however the pain of losing her was great. The financial cost was great. We spent about 10,000 and that was with surgeons and vets donating some services.
Could I do it again. Nope not in the same financial position as I was then .
Does having her make me an expert NO WAY did it make me want to learn all I could even if some of it was guessing YOU BET
Guessing was better then saying no one knows for sure so lets keep doing things the same at least for me it was.
in conversations like this we just need to accept that take what you want, join when you have a different view and move on.
I learned alot thru sadie and consider her a blessing however the pain of losing her was great. The financial cost was great. We spent about 10,000 and that was with surgeons and vets donating some services.
Could I do it again. Nope not in the same financial position as I was then .
Does having her make me an expert NO WAY did it make me want to learn all I could even if some of it was guessing YOU BET
Guessing was better then saying no one knows for sure so lets keep doing things the same at least for me it was.
in conversations like this we just need to accept that take what you want, join when you have a different view and move on.
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
May I quietly suggest that the by-line on this thread - WE NEED TO STOP THE HYSTERIA!! - be edited/rephrased? It only sets a tone that is more conducive to fingerpointing than discussion. JMHO. YMMV...
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nootka
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Well the reason that most dwarfs are say under 30" tall is because they are dwarfed. Only makes sense.
That said, not EVERY HORSE UNDER 30" tall IS a dwarf. Honestly, I never said that.
The problem is that horse may have genetically been destined to BE 34" tall, however suffered the dwarfism gene and now is smaller. Whether or not they exhibit enough symptoms or signs of dwarfism to be culled from breeding is another matter.
Say that mare gets in foal and the foal is genetically the same size SHE was supposed to be. IT could well be too large to pass, or it could be a more severe type dwarf as we all know, for whatever reason have more problems with dystocia, likely due to deformities as well as possible mental issues.
I have very little to lose or gain from pointing out dwarf characteristics in my own herd, merely trying to learn alongside everyone else and sharing my observations to help others bring in THEIRS, which I also learn from and am always changing my opinion based on something that makes SENSE.
If one person re-thinks purchasing a dwarfed horse for a breeding prospect as their first horse (I hear this way too often), then we are doing something positive,b ecause I know all would agree that we do not need to make more dwarfs.
I am personally far more passionate about this subject than the one of whether a horse is a quarter inch over 34" or even a few inches over. I'd rather flirt with a height discrepancy than a genetic deformity that will cause suffering to an as-yet unborn animal.
Liz M.
That said, not EVERY HORSE UNDER 30" tall IS a dwarf. Honestly, I never said that.
The problem is that horse may have genetically been destined to BE 34" tall, however suffered the dwarfism gene and now is smaller. Whether or not they exhibit enough symptoms or signs of dwarfism to be culled from breeding is another matter.
Say that mare gets in foal and the foal is genetically the same size SHE was supposed to be. IT could well be too large to pass, or it could be a more severe type dwarf as we all know, for whatever reason have more problems with dystocia, likely due to deformities as well as possible mental issues.
I have very little to lose or gain from pointing out dwarf characteristics in my own herd, merely trying to learn alongside everyone else and sharing my observations to help others bring in THEIRS, which I also learn from and am always changing my opinion based on something that makes SENSE.
If one person re-thinks purchasing a dwarfed horse for a breeding prospect as their first horse (I hear this way too often), then we are doing something positive,b ecause I know all would agree that we do not need to make more dwarfs.
I am personally far more passionate about this subject than the one of whether a horse is a quarter inch over 34" or even a few inches over. I'd rather flirt with a height discrepancy than a genetic deformity that will cause suffering to an as-yet unborn animal.
Liz M.
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
No, sorry, no hysteria.
A few people who thought we were "getting" at them got as bit upset but basically that is it.
No hysterics and a "taboo" subject being brought out of the closet can only be a good thing as far as I can see.
And I think you all know I breed- have always bred- for under 30"- I just do not put it in my signature because I am pretty well known for it (over here) and do not need to- I have no problem with discussing this subject and I do not feel anyone is getting at me over it because I know I do not have any dwarfs- simple really.
30 years and never had a dwarf..............................YET!!!!!
There is a first time for everything.
I do know that if, 28 years ago, I had been told Rabbit was a dwarf I would have done all the reading I could, taken informed opinions and made a decision about his future.
I would not have stuck my head in the sand.
ML when did this one arrive- it's GREAT
A few people who thought we were "getting" at them got as bit upset but basically that is it.
No hysterics and a "taboo" subject being brought out of the closet can only be a good thing as far as I can see.
And I think you all know I breed- have always bred- for under 30"- I just do not put it in my signature because I am pretty well known for it (over here) and do not need to- I have no problem with discussing this subject and I do not feel anyone is getting at me over it because I know I do not have any dwarfs- simple really.
30 years and never had a dwarf..............................YET!!!!!
There is a first time for everything.
I do know that if, 28 years ago, I had been told Rabbit was a dwarf I would have done all the reading I could, taken informed opinions and made a decision about his future.
I would not have stuck my head in the sand.
ML when did this one arrive- it's GREAT
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lvponies
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is saying that just because a horse is under 30" that it should be automatically labeled a dwarf. All anyone is saying is to look closer at your breeding choices. Educate yourself and know what to look for when purchasing a horse or choosing a breeding partner for your mare or stallion. How can educated choices hurt anyone?
LowriseMinis
Well-Known Member
Very educational!
I ventured to toss out my two cents on another thread and even now I'm thinking about going back and re-editing my message. I may regret poking into this one to, but hey! Eventually I'll learn.
I've been finding the threads on here informative. I don't have many folks local to me. I haven't made it to an actual AMHA/AMHR show yet. Even the people I've bought Minis from haven't been around to 'hold my hand' so to speak, so I'm kind of winging it here. Learning as I go along, looking at books and pictures and reading threads here.
I don't think labeling ANYTHING as fanatical or as a 'witch hunt' is going to help. I want to learn about dwarfs. I want to know the 'ugly side' of the showring. I want to see 'fugly' horses. I want to learn enough so that NEXT time I buy a horse, when I do get into the showring, when I breed or sell or do anything, I'm prepared.
When we bought our mare Laci, we were aware she wasn't perfect. However she was a decent little mare, a good mover with a sweet disposition and a nice head. She also had a good pedigree. So, with hopes to breed we bought her.
I've been lucky enough to get some honest opinions about her conformation, and among those comments several people have pointed out things they see as dwarf traits-including her 'pretty head'. I had to look at her objectively. I looked further back in her pedigree. All things considered, I'm not comfortable with breeding her now. Even if 20 people tell me she doesn't look dwarfy to them, it's not worth the risk to me.
Laci's still pretty to me and we're still planning to keep her and train her to pull a cart. She won't win at halter but I'd like to do some performance classes with her.
It's my own fault for not researching a little deeper. But I also wish the numerous breeders I contacted about breeding her would have looked at her pictures and said "She's adorable, BUT..."
I'm glad that some people were honest enough to point her features out to me BEFORE we bred her. It's possible the experience has made me a little over-critical and suspicious, but when we manage to save up the funds to buy another horse, we're going to make sure it's one we'll feel confident and happy about breeding.
So in short: KUDOS to those of you who are posting pictures and allowing conversations to take place. If nothing else, I appreciate it. I know it's not much...but maybe I'll bake cookies for you?
I ventured to toss out my two cents on another thread and even now I'm thinking about going back and re-editing my message. I may regret poking into this one to, but hey! Eventually I'll learn.
I've been finding the threads on here informative. I don't have many folks local to me. I haven't made it to an actual AMHA/AMHR show yet. Even the people I've bought Minis from haven't been around to 'hold my hand' so to speak, so I'm kind of winging it here. Learning as I go along, looking at books and pictures and reading threads here.
I don't think labeling ANYTHING as fanatical or as a 'witch hunt' is going to help. I want to learn about dwarfs. I want to know the 'ugly side' of the showring. I want to see 'fugly' horses. I want to learn enough so that NEXT time I buy a horse, when I do get into the showring, when I breed or sell or do anything, I'm prepared.
When we bought our mare Laci, we were aware she wasn't perfect. However she was a decent little mare, a good mover with a sweet disposition and a nice head. She also had a good pedigree. So, with hopes to breed we bought her.
I've been lucky enough to get some honest opinions about her conformation, and among those comments several people have pointed out things they see as dwarf traits-including her 'pretty head'. I had to look at her objectively. I looked further back in her pedigree. All things considered, I'm not comfortable with breeding her now. Even if 20 people tell me she doesn't look dwarfy to them, it's not worth the risk to me.
Laci's still pretty to me and we're still planning to keep her and train her to pull a cart. She won't win at halter but I'd like to do some performance classes with her.
It's my own fault for not researching a little deeper. But I also wish the numerous breeders I contacted about breeding her would have looked at her pictures and said "She's adorable, BUT..."
I'm glad that some people were honest enough to point her features out to me BEFORE we bred her. It's possible the experience has made me a little over-critical and suspicious, but when we manage to save up the funds to buy another horse, we're going to make sure it's one we'll feel confident and happy about breeding.
So in short: KUDOS to those of you who are posting pictures and allowing conversations to take place. If nothing else, I appreciate it. I know it's not much...but maybe I'll bake cookies for you?
hhpminis
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How many of you have done pedigree research into your minis? Gone back several generations and looked to find pictures of their heritage. I did it a few years back and searched as far back as I could find and then begin looking for pictures of them.
For those of you who say that dwarves were not used extensively in the early years of our breed, think again. It does not mean that the horse you have in your barn right now is a dwarf, but I have pictures to prove that one of my stallions I used to own had one as a grandfather, I found the picture and it could not be denied. He was a full blown dwarf. Looking him up in the AMHR studbook, I find that he produced 25 get that were registered. Some with big farm names on them. Whether they had dwarf characteristics or not, I do not know and am not claiming that any of them did.
What I do know is, that was then, this is now. The only way we can end it is to educate ourselves and train our eye to see these characteristics and make a knowledgeable decision on whether the animal in front of us is worthy to breed or not. Back then the emphasis was on small, smaller, and smallest. We have learned from some of those mistakes and are all working on creating a more perfect small horse. In some instances this means that we may have had to sacrifice some height to get away from this. Each year I see better smaller horses at the national level, so yes we are making progress, even in the littles.
Yes there are many many conformational flaws other than dwarfism that need to be considered as well. It does not mean they are a worthless animal, many have given owners years of safisfaction as a pet or a performance horse. I have seen some phenominal driving horses that have the biggest jughead you've ever seen but put them in harness and OMG, who cares! Also, look at some of the really big moving driving horses, the legs go every which way, next time you are at a show, look down the lineup of the pleasure driving classes, you'll see what I mean. Doesn't mean they are throw aways, just they have a purpose even if they are not the standard of "perfection".
I think this "discussion" has been beneficial for the most part. What I hate to see is people post pictures of their under 30" horses that may be from the lineage of farms that were mentioned and innocently ask, "So my horse is a dwarf?" Blanket statements get misconstrued and to the newer mini people could cause irrepairable damage to someones reputation who has guided them to the littles and all of a sudden the new person is thinking, oh my, they sold me a dwarf! So lets just really think about how our statements could be read by not only those that have been doing this for years but the new "lurker" that is just getting started into this.
Personally, I like the taller horses, but that does not mean that the person who likes the littles is wrong, they just like something different than I do. Just as I would hope they did not think I was wrong for breeding a 36 inch mare or stallion and heaven forbid using a 38 incher! LOL Yeah, the result may go over, that is my gamble and one I am willing to take. Just like the people who breed for small and smaller, risk getting a dwarf from time to time, or Overo breeders risk getting a LWO foal. The key is knowledge. Dont act shocked when the odds get the best of you. There are no guarantees in breeding.
For those of you who say that dwarves were not used extensively in the early years of our breed, think again. It does not mean that the horse you have in your barn right now is a dwarf, but I have pictures to prove that one of my stallions I used to own had one as a grandfather, I found the picture and it could not be denied. He was a full blown dwarf. Looking him up in the AMHR studbook, I find that he produced 25 get that were registered. Some with big farm names on them. Whether they had dwarf characteristics or not, I do not know and am not claiming that any of them did.
What I do know is, that was then, this is now. The only way we can end it is to educate ourselves and train our eye to see these characteristics and make a knowledgeable decision on whether the animal in front of us is worthy to breed or not. Back then the emphasis was on small, smaller, and smallest. We have learned from some of those mistakes and are all working on creating a more perfect small horse. In some instances this means that we may have had to sacrifice some height to get away from this. Each year I see better smaller horses at the national level, so yes we are making progress, even in the littles.
Yes there are many many conformational flaws other than dwarfism that need to be considered as well. It does not mean they are a worthless animal, many have given owners years of safisfaction as a pet or a performance horse. I have seen some phenominal driving horses that have the biggest jughead you've ever seen but put them in harness and OMG, who cares! Also, look at some of the really big moving driving horses, the legs go every which way, next time you are at a show, look down the lineup of the pleasure driving classes, you'll see what I mean. Doesn't mean they are throw aways, just they have a purpose even if they are not the standard of "perfection".
I think this "discussion" has been beneficial for the most part. What I hate to see is people post pictures of their under 30" horses that may be from the lineage of farms that were mentioned and innocently ask, "So my horse is a dwarf?" Blanket statements get misconstrued and to the newer mini people could cause irrepairable damage to someones reputation who has guided them to the littles and all of a sudden the new person is thinking, oh my, they sold me a dwarf! So lets just really think about how our statements could be read by not only those that have been doing this for years but the new "lurker" that is just getting started into this.
Personally, I like the taller horses, but that does not mean that the person who likes the littles is wrong, they just like something different than I do. Just as I would hope they did not think I was wrong for breeding a 36 inch mare or stallion and heaven forbid using a 38 incher! LOL Yeah, the result may go over, that is my gamble and one I am willing to take. Just like the people who breed for small and smaller, risk getting a dwarf from time to time, or Overo breeders risk getting a LWO foal. The key is knowledge. Dont act shocked when the odds get the best of you. There are no guarantees in breeding.
Charlotte
Well-Known Member
Exactly Katjean, this is the problem with what is going on here. Just poor conformation or a particular trait that someone doesn't like is labeled as 'dwarfism' when it is most likely just poor conformation. It turns what could be an informative discussion into a 'witch hunt'.
And Mary Lou, this does appear as a form of hysteria to me.... Look back at some of the pictures of horses presented here as having 'dwarf' characteristics.....now come on.....do they really?????? Little ears????? come on for petes sake! Or a hoof or hooves that don't grow correctly? Well, how have they been cared for???? From birth????? How many of us understand the dynamics of hoof structure and that a certain amount of weight is necessary to spread the heal or wear the hoof the way it would in a 1,000 lb horse?
And so we are saying that all horses with some type of leg deviation or a long back is a minimal dwarf? We better get busy and shoot a bunch of quarters, arabs, thoroughbreds, warm bloods, Percherons etc etc. That is what is being put forth here...the idea that any conformation fault is a sign of dwarfism and THAT is misinformation.
Now I know, there are those who so adamantly believe what is being espoused here that their minds are closed. It is just so unfortunate that personal opinions are presented as fact.
May I invite everyone to go to my web site and view my dwarfs? Enjoy. (we have a lot of little ears here
Charlotte
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L
Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis
Guest
Isnt it like that with almost any post on this forum though? What is breeding quality? What is show quality? What happens at shows or doesnt- if balding is truly cruel or not, horses living outside or inside- one registry being better then the other- what is refined -shoud a mini be ridden? is it ok for a 32 in mini to pull a 3oo lb person- whatever the topic may be
anything really is personal opinions often times being presented as fact? (that is the nature of a forum) the only difference is this seems to be a much more forbidden topic
charlotte I have been to your site and I love Skipper what a cute boy
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tagalong
Well-Known Member
The only "witch hunt" going on here comes from those who insist on labelling this and other threads as such... and insisting that the opinions and concerns of others are merely "hysteria"... how on earth do comments of that kind help with any discussion or education?
There is no hysteria - but an awful lot of ridiculing the opinions of others going on. Why not just present your opinions instead of sneering? Why not contribute to a discussion calmly instead of ridiculing or pointing fingers??
NO. For the bazillionth time - no such thing was said. By anyone. In any of these threads - but let's not let facts get in the way....
Again, NO. That ^^^ is misinformation as that is not what is being put forth here....
People are offering their opinions based on their experience. That is not a sign of a closed mind - just because you may not agree. You are free to offer your opinions as well - and not bash others along the way. Flinging around terms like witch hunts, hysteria, closed minds etc. has nothing to do with discussion and education...
I really do not understand the reason for the anger in this thread or why some feel the need to bash and trash... if you do not like the discussion you can scroll on or pick another thread... but people airing opinions that may not line up with yours does not make them close-minded, hysterical, fixated, paranoid or any other pleasantry that some may wish to slap around...
I wonder if some who insist on the labelling and pooh-poohing the discussion have ever had a dwarf arrive in the straw... ever cared for one... ever held a little one who had to be sent on his way to ease his pain... ever spent 5 years caring for one with all the ups and downs.... and making sure he is safe and happy...
And I am supposedly one of the close-minded ones? I think not....
ETA: We NEED to discuss. To share. To examine. I truly do not understand why some simply want to look the other way.... or sneer at those who wish to examine the topic...
As I said earlier - we are the guardians of the breed - we owe it to the HORSES to be the best guardians possible... and there is nothing remotely "hysterical" about that.... bash away...
ETA2:
Matt... Tiny Tim was not the only one. Bond & Komoko are not the only lines (and no, not all hores from those lines will be necessarily be affected) ... and if dwarfism is recessive as many believe (and may be a combination of genes)... then it takes TWO. And the chances of a live one arriving would be even less than the 25% genetic chance of creating one. And THAT may be why we are not overrun with them...
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maestoso
Well-Known Member
There is no way to "end" dwarfism. It is smething that first of all, has never been proven even to e genetic, illustrated by the fact that they can't isolate a gene. This means that it is something else. Environmental factors maybe, or just a fluke, something that happens. There is no way to weed out dwarfism because even the best quality horses with only the best in their pedigree for generations and generations can produce a dwarf. It is like a still born, sometimes no matter what you do, you just can't do anything about it. That is why it is important to separate conformation flaws from dwarfism. Responsible breeding can reduce bad conformation faults, and it ****might***** reduce the risk of producing dwarfs, however, if this was indeed the case, they would have been able to isolate a "gene" by now. If Bond Tiny Tim was a dwarf( a point which I am not arguing) and he was used so prolifically, than we should have a lot more dwarfs around....
lvponies
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for this very informative discussion.
Let's all remember to keep an open mind and never stop learning.
Now that Liz brought "nostrils" to my attention a while back in another one of her threads, I found myself on my knees in the barn looking at every ones nostril placement. Got a lot of snot blown in my face that day.
Let's all remember to keep an open mind and never stop learning.
Now that Liz brought "nostrils" to my attention a while back in another one of her threads, I found myself on my knees in the barn looking at every ones nostril placement. Got a lot of snot blown in my face that day.
tagalong
Well-Known Member
Mary Lou - this topic - and the obvious disgust and contempt that some show for the experiences, opinions and concerns of others... has taught me that many do not want to share or discuss - but sweep it under the carpet, look away, deny, SSS...
But that is their opinion - and my opinion is that we should not shut up about this - EVER - but continue to discuss and share... and I hope we can continue to do so.
Off to feed horses - and I will make sure to tell my little Cowboy that he is but a hysterical (in a funny way - not a manic way) figment of my imagination...
runamuk
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For those that have not seen this here is some information from one of the people trying to locate the dwarf gene/genes. And lists proposed dwarf genes and the accompanying characteristics.
http://www.amha.org/pdf/memb/DPresentation.pdf
http://www.amha.org/pdf/memb/DPresentation.pdf
