Defects. deformities, normal, etc.

[maestoso]

Matt... Tiny Tim was not the only one. Bond & Komoko are not the only lines (and no, not all hores from those lines will be necessarily be affected) ... and if dwarfism is recessive as many believe (and may be a combination of genes)... then it takes TWO. And the chances of a live one arriving would be even less than the 25% genetic chance of creating one. And THAT may be why we are not overrun with them...

I was merely using him as an example, since many have mentioned him on this post so far. I don't think my comment was exclusive to that stud, and it wasn't meant to be.

 

[nootka]

I think what's being missed here is that it is not ANY ONE trait that makes a dwarf, and we all know that any of those traits can happen for other reasons.

what we are also failing to take into account is that yes, dwarf horses were used quite prolifically in some cases.

Komokos Little Champ, Bond Tiny Tim, Dell Tera's Lord of the Isles, Dell Tera's Snowman (I personally think he is one based on the pics I"ve seen), Komokos Little Husseler, Irsul Van't Huttenest, these horses have many offspring out there. Not ALL would have received the apparent affliction. Did they inherit it? Probably, but maybe not at all.

SOme of the dwarfs would have died younger or been sterile for whatever reason, so they would not have been as successful (natural selection working against our artificial version), hence, not so many around as one might think.

I am basing much of my opinion, my educated guesses on observations of my own, not what someone said, or believes, though I have read much of what's been published. I like what John Eberth is doing and I know that Ann Bowling was working on this subject as well. We NEED this, to put it all to a scientific fact, no guesswork, no opinions, nothing.

What one is saying is a pretty head is probably just that. I have no problem with pretty heads, but I DO have a problem with deformed ones. Anyone that tells me that a horse with a head that is bent upward at the bottom and top is quite deluded, and that is their right to "like" that. Just don't be surprised when the horse with that same head that has as well a long body, short legs and other traits will throw a dwarf foal.

Please be informed. Noone is telling you not to like what you like, nor to stop breeding smallest possible. What we hope for is that everyone will realize what the possibilities are.

Marty, sorry about the snot. I hope you saw what I was explaining on my post w/my filly. Look at my colt, Pyro's pics, too. He almost has the same look, but not quite.

He still has what many call a pretty head, though his proportions and lack of other deformities don't say dwarf to me.

I still maintain the belief that leg deformities are a dwarf trait, especially when they are there at birth and persist and need special maintenance. Regardless, I will not breed a horse with that predisposition anyway. Many dwarfs I've seen have clubbed feet. This filly I had did, and it was not because her feet were not maintained. She just tended to have clubbed feet. It happens. Add it to all her other traits and I am still convinced she is a dwarf and carries the gene. If not, she's just too "fugly" to use as a breeder, so either way it is not a sin to remove such a horse from the gene pool.

I will admit again that I may be wrong about the dwarfism. It could be I'm right. I just won't play with it. I would love to know that she wasn't a dwarf, but I dont' think I'm wrong on this one. I am merely offering opinions and anyone is welcome to dispute them or offer advice to modify or educate my beliefs. I want to learn, too!

Liz M.

 

[Darkstar]

WOW!

I believe ther terms hysteria and witch hunt were used to express how many times just plain bad conformation is blamed on dwarfism.

There have been alot of awsome and very educational posts on this topic which is what this board should be all about.

 

[horsehug]

Thanks for posting that, Runamuk,

I have learned so much about dwarfism from John over the last few years and have lots of confidence in his research for eventually finding a test for all of us.

Susan O.

 

[Katiean]

How did anything I say label this as a "Witch Hunt"? I was only pointing out That there are some nice small horses being labeled Dwarfs. They may have a conformation fault or two but, just because it has a fault it doesn't make it a dwarf. In my opinion, the person doesn't care for that type of horse so to them it looks like a dwarf. Personally do not like a horse that appears to have a thick shoulder. What I mean by that is the withers is set way back behind (some distance behind) the front leg. To me the girth of your harness doesn't fasten right and your harness saddle doesn't sit flat. To some they say it has a short back. To me it is a thick shoulder and I think they look out of balance. But, I would not call it a dwarf. I am also not saying anyone is on a witch hunt. Please, don't include my quotes and witch hunt in the sentence. To me it is real funny that if you don't agree with someones statement you are a witch hunter.

 

[nightflight]

Just touching on genetics:

The problem is that we are taking a guess and basing whole discussions on it, as if it were fact. For example, we are discussing dwarfism as if it were an autosomal recessive. Please consider

Achondroplasia is inherited as an autosomal dominant trait, but it is inherited only a small percentage of the time. Most cases occur as a result of a new mutation in the gamete of a parent, usually the father. As the father ages the chance of this mutation occuring increases.

This is for humans. It has not been proven one way or the other in horses. But, is it possible that someone here has produced an achondroplastic dwarf, assumed it was an autosomal recessive, and gone looking for proof? If you look hard enough, you will find SOMETHING.

More food for thought.

If it is autosomal dominant, any "normal" offspring of a heterozygous dwarf (any dwarf with one normal parent) is dwarfism free.

If it is autosomal recessive you won't be able to tell a "carrier" from a picture. A heterozygous animal will look just like a normal. Any homozygous animal (visible dwarf) will be a dwarf, not a carrier.

If you can tell a carrier just by looking at it, then this isn't a straight autosomal recessive. It may be a co-dominant or a line bred trait. Co-dominant means that if the trait is there, it will be expressed. A heterozygous animal could be a minimal dwarf. A homozygous animal would be a full blown dwarf. Oops. The problem here is that if it's co-dom then we can't have any cropouts, all dwarfs will have at least one dwarf parent and you will be able to tell it by looking. Crud. I thought we were onto something.

A line bred trait is just the quick way of saying that the trait could be based on many interactions that result in what we see as a single trait. Think straight legs or cow-hocked. There is a lot going on there. Based on that one, dwarf to dwarf would give you a more "dwarfy dwarf", to give you the most eaisly understood example. You should be able to se a line of progression from possibly a dwarf, to probably a dwarf, to poor dwarf. But then there's that pesky crop out problem. Darn.

What if it's even more involved? What if it's, pick one, any of the above, but it will only be expressed if a "GO-DWARF-GO" allele is inherited from one parent? What if it's a combination of the above?

What if it's something else?

We need to look at the big picture, which is that we don't know what is going on yet. What we are calling possible carriers could be full blown dwarves or could be normal but wierd (to the person who is calling them a possible carrier) looking horses. Dwarfism isn't just a fault, like "wierd", it's a DISORDER. It's not shades of grey, like saying I wish this horse had a longer neck... If you say dwarf, you are saying this horse 100% has a disorder, no minimal about it.

When we finally figure out what is going on, some of us are going to have been right with our guesses, and some of us will have been wrong. The danger with this discussion is that people are not tacking on that "but I could be wrong". Somewhere, someone is going to read and take what you said as gospel. The information that is learned could be wrong, or even the right info, but not correctly understood. I'm thinking back to the places people pointed to when looking for the dish.

EDIT: Not proof-read for spelling and grammer. Best of luck to any readers.

 

[runamuk]

Thanks for posting that, Runamuk,

I have learned so much about dwarfism from John over the last few years and have lots of confidence in his research for eventually finding a test for all of us.

Susan O.

Susan, John and I have spoken via email several times. If my computer had not crashed years ago I also had a number of emails discussing this topic with Ann Bowling. I know they have tests now for some of the cattle dwarfisms and can only hope with enough funding and support that there will be something in the future for horses.

I may be the TINY EAR perpetrator

what I was referring to was tiny ears in conjunction with other traits. And tiny ears as in disproportionately small for the head. My weaner horse has ears so tiny you often do not see them yet he has a LONG neck and normal sized head for his neck, and a LONG back with disproportionately short legs. I never considered him a dwarf until recently as his main issue is crap for legs. But the more I have learned the more I wonder.

With my 2 foot wonder horse

it was multiple things again. Excessive hair growth, stunted height (stopped growing by 6 months of age), unusual nostril placement, tiny ears(not as disproportionate as my gelding), shortened upper leg and straight shoulder, and rapid hoof growth that curled (by rapid I mean required weekly trimming).

If my gelding just had calf knees I wouldn't think dwarf just bad legs. BUT calf knees, sickle hocks, stifle issues, short stature, and long body, long neck, and disproportionately small ears....is more of a head scratcher.

 

[RainSong]

THANK YOU BECKY!

 

[lvponies]

Colleen.....Thank you for your genetics explanation!! Can't say that I completely understand everything you said, but I do understand that we just don't know yet. Hopefully, one day, we will know all there is to know about what causes dwarfism in our minis and be able to test for it. I am looking forward to that day!!

 

[Carolyn R]

I think it is awesome when we sit back and are able to look at our own horses and say that is not what I want to breed for.

And what is even better than that is when we follow through and don't breed the said horse.

I can't do much about the horses in your neighbors pasture, but I can do something about the ones in mine.

 

[tagalong]

To me it is real funny that if you don't agree with someones statement you are a witch hunter.

No - it is not "funny".

Nor is it "funny" to merrily bash another's opinion and concerns - is it acceptable to call it hysteria or fixation or a witch hunt? Also not funny - or right.

This entire thread was started on the premise that this discussion is nothing but misguided hysteria.... how is that helpful? It isn't - and it is certainly not funny, either. It is a combination of traits that may be a cause for concern... in some opinions. That can be discussed calmly - or so one would think... but apparently such is not the case.

This is a forum... a message board.. an exchange of ideas... and ALL opinions should be shared. You do not have to qualify things and bend over backwards to say - but I may be wrong... all you are doing is sharing your opinion and your concerns. We may all be wrong. Opinions should not be shot down - but discussed. That is how message boards work.... with respect for ALL opinions - not just the ones that you favour. Or that is how they should work, anyway...

For instance - IMO some dwarf characteristics can be expressed more minimally than others... just a less obvious version of the same thing. Just as conformation in general varies - IMO the way a disorder can affect said conformation may also vary. There are dwarfs who never make it to birth... are still born... are very messed up and need splints etc. ... and then there are those who manage quite nicely - and can run and play like a "normal" mini... and some even look fairly normal - yet all have the disorder - just to varying intensity/type. Not all disorders are expressed to their full intensity - even in humans....

[SIZE=8pt]edited for clarity...[/SIZE]

 

[hhpminis]

I will throw in an example that was in my own barn.

I do not own these horses anymore so cannot post pictures but will describe the situation

I bred a mare and she had an absolutely exquisite filly. Could not fault this filly at the time. She sold within weeks of being born. I saw this filly as a young yearling the last time I saw her for quite some time.

In the meantime I bred her again. She aborted the filly at 276 days and had a terribel dystocia. It was the first year that the WNV shots came out and I had given her the shot and at the time, I pretty much blamed the vaccine. The filly appeared lovely and I was heartbroken as was the mare, it was very heartwrenching to watch her mourn. After she healed, I got her checked out by the vet and got the green light to breed her again.

I bred her and the next spring, she carried full term, even a bit over and had a very deformed colt. The vet attributed it to mustard poisening and did not give him a good prognosis. Beings that the mare had mourned so horribly over the loss of her foal the year before, we decided to let the colt live and see whao became in a week or so. Believe it or not, the colts legs straightened out tremendously, his bite came on and he was with the exception of one splay front foot, quite normal. We gelded hom and sold him to a family who wanted a pet.

We were approached by someone who wanted to buy her. We made the sale and they bred her to a stallion that I personally would not have as I saw characteristics in the stallion that sent up red flags to me. Sure enough, she foaled a full blown dwarf the following spring.

Now, back to the first foal. I saw her as a 4 yr old and she defintely was not the same cute filly I had sold 4 years before. She had stunted growth and had other characteristics that sent up red flags to me.

Only then could I look very honestly and discerning at this mare and see that yes in fact there were some characteristics in this mare that now would make me wonder if she in fact could have carried a dwarf gene.

So after all this, I guess what I am saying that I believe that had I been aware of certain traits way back when, I may have seen this in the mare and could have pulled her from the gene pool much sooner.

 

[nightflight]

A story can spark a witch hunt if it is presented as a fact. We need to be very clear that we are not dealing in facts right now, or people are going get burned.

All opinions are not judged equal. By puting in a qualifier - this is an opinion- you keep it on that level. You can only have a discussion if everyone feels like they have an equal say.

What you view bending over backwards, was me trying to make it clear that what I said was open to different viewpoints. Saying that I'm not sure doesn't hurt my feelings one bit, and it may help to keep someone else jump to the wrong conclusions based upon my post. I want people to think for themselves about this topic, not just take as gospel what they read on an open fourm.

--Moving Right Along---

We can't overlook factors outside of the genetics of it either, as Becky posted earlier.

-tagalong, I agree what you are going to see a range of expression in these dwarves. Why do you think we see that? There has to be a pattern of inheritance if it is genetic. Care to throw an idea as to why out there?

Added: One season we lost almost a full foal crop before we discovered that the pelleted feed we had been buying as alfalfa turned out to have toxic fescue in it. I remember that with the last two foals we lost a nearby mini owner asked to come by and look. It really sticks in my mind that the last thing the other owner said on the second trip out was that the foals had not been dwarves. Huh? Of course they weren't. People do jump to conclusions.

 

[Tony]

I am not sure what the definition of "used extensively" is, but I checked Bond Tiny Tim's records. He had foals registered for TEN years, a total of 36 foals, or less than four foals per year. I don't think I would consider that extensive.

On threads like this, I enjoy each person's post ONCE. After that, I feel that additional posts from a person just become argumentative and bog the thread down. I am sure that I will be flamed for that, but it is my opinion.

 

[horsehug]

No flames from me, Tony.

I always look forward to your posts and learn from them.

Susan O.

 

[Minimor]

See, even when it comes to the environmental aspect--that is also a matter of opinion. I've heard it said that environmental causes such as nitrate "poisoning" can cause symptoms that look exactly like dwarfism.

Here in Canada there has actually been quite a lot of experience with nitrate poisoning--at least it is now thought that nitrates is the root cause of congenital hypothyroidism. I've had some experience with this myself, and know others that have as well--Minis as well as bigs--and I have talked at some length with a leading researcher on this condition. Congenital hypothyroidism does cause one thing that dwarfism is also known for--an underbite. After reading on here long ago that nitrates causes "severe leg deformities" I asked this researcher about that, since what I've seen in affected horses could not be called severe leg deformities. This researcher said he was not aware of any leg deformities associated with the condition, unless someone was giving the "deformity" label to the typical leg ailments that go with congenital hypothyroidism--weak legs, generally weak extensor tendons with typical swellings just below the knees, an inability to stand in severely afflicted foals, difficulty in walking (knuckling over due to extensor tendons being too weak to bring the foot up and forward enough to allow the foot to land flat) and in some cases immature hock and/or knee joints, with tarsal crushing syndrome as the foal matures. Keep in mind this research veterinarian has examined many, many affected horses in his studies, and these are always the sort of leg problems he saw associated with congenital hypothyroidism--which in turn he now believes is caused by nitrates. If by deformities someone is meaning twisted, misshapen legs--no, that's not typical of nitrate poisoning/congenital hypothyroidism--at least not in full size horses. If nitrates cause something different/worse in Minis (and in the case of the Minis here--ours and those belonging to another area breeder--in 2004, the symptoms were not worse nor different--they were exactly the same as the typical symptoms seen in full size horses) it's my opinion that it's because there is something more going on with the Minis. I suspect it may be a two part problem--nitrates acting on dwarfism to cause severe deformities? I think it's good to warn that environmental influences may factor into some cases of apparent dwarfism, but I surely wouldn't be comfortable in assuring someone that their severely afflicted dwarf was probably caused solely be environmental factors and therefore it's okay to try the same breeding combination again.

And I agree, it's not any one trait that makes me suspect dwarf in some horses--it's the overall look of the horse. One one fault would make me think 'poor conformation' but when there are a number of faults together, I get leary. Some of the horses posted this week aren't what I would choose for myself, but there's nothing about them that says dwarf to me. On the other hand in some photos I've seen of horses that have produced a dwarf--I do see things that make me not surprised that they've had a dwarf. Again, it's not necessarily any one trait, but the overall look of the horse. And there again, it's not that I look at the horse & think "that one is going to have a dwarf"--I look at the horse & think "I'm afraid that one MIGHT be likely to produce a dwarf".

As for whether or not you (general "you" not anyone in particular) believe that dwarves were used extensively (or not) for breeding, that very much depends on which horses you believe to be a dwarf. The people who believes Komokos Little Husseler (as one example) to be a dwarf will see dwarves being used more extensively than do the people who insist that Komokos Little Husseler was NOT a dwarf. Again, it boils down to opinions when it comes to how many dwarves there have been used for breeding.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

nevermind confused even myself on that one LOL

 

[mininik]

Exactly, Lisa.

LOL No fair, you edited before my response! My interpretation of what you were saying was dwarf, poorly conformed, pet quality or whatever you want to call it, WHY breed it?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

LOL pulled a fast one on you Niki

 

[nootka]

Yes, I've posted multiple times on this same post.

I wish people would note that I HAVE BEEN saying all along that I am not an expert, I am quite possibly wrong, I am offering my OPINION and only that.

What I will say is that I have seen mares that looked much like my little palomino posted on the Photo Gallery nursing full-blown dwarfs and those dwarfs were by stallions that looked much like herself in that they showed very minimal traits, but all in all, signs of dwarfism. I began to notice a common thread in these herds.

I truly wish we had a photo database of truly proven sire and dam of dwarf foals (I mean the truly obvious ones so that others could see it).

I know that is unlikely to happen.

Komoko's Little Husseler was undoubtedly afflicted by a dwarf gene if you look at any of the photos you will see the disproportion and his bulldog-type face as well as leg deformities. Just a poor-quality little horse if not a dwarf, but I'd go with dwarf based on the photos. He had a large proportion of foals, some of whom were every bit as poor as he was, IMO, and others that were quite nice. I would not use that stallion today for anything, and I doubt many would. The risks are too great.

Anyway, each little "problematic feature" that could or may not be dwarfism at work, needs to be taken as a whole. As was mentioned, some of these features do really predispose a breeder to removing the horse from any breeding program such as bad legs, bad bite, but that doesn't always happen, either.

I for one feel I may be proven both wrong and right when and if a test finally makes it to us. I am fully open to the idea that I may be 100% and completely wrong. I am just going on my observations from before I had miniatures to the time I have HAD miniatures. I am basing my opinion on non-scientific observation. There, I said it again (sorry, Tony).

Liz